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Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

HeadInTheClouds
 MountainPine:
But recently I had a hard and long "battle" with YaoJing fans online (most of time it felt like playing chess with a pigeons :)

Playing chess with a pigeon :-). Is that a Ukrainian idiom? I looked up the meaning and, lol!

Where were you having these battles?


 MountainPine:
Tong Hua's attitude is inconsistent to me.

I don't think Tong Hua is inconsistent. She appears inconsistent because we are looking at these relationships through the lens of a normal, psychologically healthy individual. Xiao Yao, though, is far from that.  So Xiao Yao doesn't behave in the way that we are used to, personally, as well as from a fiction perspective. Particularly, romantic fiction.  If you look at Xiao Yao's behaviour through the lens of someone heavily avoidant and operating from a place of fear, it would make a lot more sense.



 MountainPine:
Generally trough the novel she looks to me like a person with her bones broken. And instead of going trough hard and painful rehab to be back to normal life, in the end,  she is being put on a wheelchair and surrounded with pillows and someone promises to carry her like that  always so she don't feel pain

Exactly! Instead of addressing her problems, Xiao Yao chose to ignore and settle for the easier path. 


 MountainPine:
Jing wins in  "viewers favorite character online contest" and most of voters were women... How to even explain this? Who makes women weak and dependent? Men or, maybe... we ourselves?

Like Kokuto said, I wouldn't put too much stock in these online contests. During its run, there are different parties with vested interests looking to influence viewers' perception. Money was being poured into voting, as well as social media posts, for this reason. It's part and parcel of the Chinese Drama industry, unfortunately.  

And there are many people who not only see nothing wrong with Xiao Yao sneaking around with TSJ while he is still engaged, but find the whole thing romantic and "true love".  If you don't share their opinions, is there any point in talking with them? Like you said, it's like playing chess with a pigeon. :-).

 

 MountainPine:
Summing up, I wanted to ask if there is some thread or collection of all Tong Hua's comments and thoughts about LYF, and the way her attitude changed (probably) during all these years, so it can be possible to better understand what she actually wanted to say with her novel.

There were a few posts that collected these comments. It's somewhere in these 749 pages. I don't have the link, unfortunately. 

My personal opinion is that author should leave their works alone instead of attempting to edit and change things down the line. Each work captured the author's thoughts and intentions at the moment of its creation; subsequent revisions may not improve the work, and may even taint it.  Not to mention, once you sell the rights to your work, there are compromises to be made to satisfy outside investors. And finally, I think that sometimes the author is not the best person to adapt their work. They are too close and can fail to see the flaws in the work; ego can also come into play. 

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MountainPine
 HeadInTheClouds:
Playing chess with a pigeon :-). Is that a Ukrainian idiom? I looked up the meaning and, lol!

😆Yes, that means while you're thinking of a smart move/response, they're just flipping chess pieces and 💩 on the board (I apologize, I hope that is not too harsh on them 🫣).

 HeadInTheClouds:
Where were you having these battles?

On twitter.

 HeadInTheClouds:
there are different parties with vested interests looking to influence viewers' perception. Money was being poured into voting, as well as social media posts, for this reason
What an irony. Xiang Liu loses both in fictional world and in the real world...💔

 HeadInTheClouds:
Xiao Yao sneaking around with TSJ while he is still engaged
I find Xiao Yao's belief that she should have helped Jing to see that Yi Yang is evil, that she should have interfered in the relationship of an engaged/married couple absolutely disgusting and wrong. This is definitely a completely wrong idea. No options. And it is very shameful for any woman to think so. If he can't manage and solve these problems himself and understand the person next to him, these are his own problems and his 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩.

 HeadInTheClouds:
we are looking at these relationships through the lens of a normal, psychologically healthy individual
🤔I don't know If I am normal, because we live out of comfort zone for a long time and death became something ordinary. But I believe this way I can see a bit more clearly thought the mist of this story.

Choices. In the fanfiction I mentioned yesterday, there is a moment that touched my heart. SPOILERS ahead. Tian Er breaks up with Chuan Zi and marries the soldier she loves. She lives with him for one year and he dies in battle. Hearing this story, Xiao Yao expresses her condolences to her but Tian Er says she doesn't need them because the choice she made gave her happiness in life (closure). And she have no regrets. This is a very strong life position.

I think Xiao Yao is very consistent. In degradation. But I... just hate her, to be honest. I wanted to write that she is miserable main character. But Xiang Liu would not fall in love with someone miserable. She is really original, "rich" and profound character. And this is why her degradation is SO EPIC. And degradation scenario is how it actually happened to many people in real life.
She is cowardly, self-serving, egoistic, and always blaming others (about abandonment). And her Reality Denial Syndrome is in its terminal stage.

And she is weak. "she didn't make an effort to find out (about life of her "family" from Hui Chun clinic ) not because she didn't care, but because she cared too much". She is unable to bear all the fear that comes with love and HEAVINESS OF LOVE that she has to her beloved people, and she just escapes and abandones them. Like sometimes fater escapes from family when turns out his child is seriously ill, leaving the mother to deal with everything. She abandoned people even more than was abandoned herself. She abandoned her relatives who were searching for her (not revealing herself), at some points she abandoned Jing, she abandoned Xiang Liu in the end...

 HeadInTheClouds:
My personal opinion is that author should leave their works alone instead of attempting to edit and change things down the line. Each work captured the author's thoughts and intentions at the moment of its creation; subsequent revisions may not improve the work, and may even taint it.  Not to mention, once you sell the rights to your work, there are compromises to be made to satisfy outside investors. And finally, I think that sometimes the author is not the best person to adapt their work. They are too close and can fail to see the flaws in the work; ego can also come into play. 
I support everything. I sometimes have this weird feeling that speaking out in support of YaoJing... it's like Tong Hua is taking revenge on a world where women so often choose Jing over Xiang Liu in their lives... but at the same time, it's like for some reason she's desperately trying to convince HERSELF that this is right decision and they'd make a good couple...

I am the kind of person who would confess my love to a man even if I felt that the chances of shared feelings were 5%. And I would be ok if rejected. And I would choose a man even knowing that he might die soon (my husband returned to the war 3 weeks after we got married). Xiang Liu's argument "the best ending for a general is to die on the battlefield" (don't try to "come closer" to me, it doesn't make sense because I'm going to die soon) - would not work for me. Therefore, probably the biggest question for me in this novel - did Xiang Liu at any point actually want her to confess to him directly and unequivocally and admit her feelings to herself and to him? If not, then why did he even ask her that 4th question, for what?
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MountainPine
 liddi:
You can register on the Lofter app via a Weibo or WeChat account

From what I read it turns out I can't register on Weibo or WeChat not having Chinese phone number.

And this is a meme about a boy who wasn't given a chocolate bar...

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MountainPine
 Kokuto:
The other clue to YaoJing is that its shadow relationship is Chuan Zi  and Sang Tian Er.  Their relationship is exactly as Tong Hua described -- time, setbacks, trials, and not built on romantic love, at least from Sang Tian Er's side.  While Chuan Zi's 'love' didn't stop him from cheating on her later on.  But the love of family and their life together was the foundation that allowed them both to work on their relationship and stay together.

I specifically reread today the part where Tian Er talks about her life and its outcome. According to Xiao Yao's earlier "plan" that she described to Jing, "fake feelings should eventually turn into real ones." But this is nowhere to be seen between Tian Er and Chuan Zi. Her family was held together solely by her desire for this, by her illusion of a happy family that she created consciously of her own free will ("whatever you want, you have to believe it exists"), and by her ability to forgive her husband. Nothing more. No fake feelings ever turned into real ones! No matter how hard she tried...

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HeadInTheClouds
 MountainPine:
In fact, it is a salvation for me. All your thoughts written here - reading it saved me. And it is a miracle that I  found SOMETHING so powerful that can distract me from the madness of our existence in war. 

I'm glad that our little thread on this small corner of the internet provides you with some distraction and joy.


 MountainPine:
. But there were no one even remotely like Xiang Liu. Often, when I lie awake at night, I immediately start thinking about him. And I just feel the tears quietly rolling down from my eyes in the darkness - and this is so strange and weird...

The power of Xiang Liu. He seems to have that effect on those who like him. Some have been devoted fans for 10+ years. I think it's because he embodied such lovely, admirable qualities that are worthy of emulation. 


 MountainPine:
But even if it seems to you that you can't live without someone - the question remains: is it love, or are you just used to this person?

A question that more people should ask themselves. Particularly when they are not terribly happy in the relationship, but keep trying to make it work over and over again. 


 MountainPine:
If I feel pity for someone, it means I don't love them. We often feel pity for someone and therefore think we love them. But pity is not love, it is an evil force in disguise that destroys.

I agree that pity is not love.  Pity is different from empathy or sympathy. There is a connotation of superiority and condescension where the person feeling pity views the other as helpless or weak - needing protection. This is very much the YaoJing relationship dynamic, so @blabla100  was accurate in her reply to you. 

Can it evolve into love? Possibly! Provided that there are changes in the relationship dynamic. Did we see this change in the YaoJing relationship? I'd say no. He took care of her in the way a servant/helper would (just like when they were in QS town), but she was the one who provided him with protection and solved his problems. If he were at all capable of protecting himself, this wouldn't be an issue, but he wasn't. It remained a very uneven relationship.

The best way to see the basis of the YaoJing relationship is to compare it with the YaoXuan and YaoLiu relationships. Particularly with the YaoLiu because they were created to contrast each other.  And the Lover Bugs is the plot device designed to make this delineation clear. 

Time for a pop quiz: what is the basis of the YaoLiu and YaoXuan relationships?


 MountainPine:
For example, the moment where Xiao Yao says: "I really hate that I wasn’t born a few hundred years earlier. I would definitely find you in the slave death match arena...”

Let's finish what was left unsaid:

"If I were born a few hundred years earlier, I would find you in the slave death match arena. I would have been the one to free you. "

Why is it important that she be the one to free him?

"Because then you wouldn't have met Gong Gong. You wouldn't have gotten involved with the resistance army. You wouldn't be Cang Xuan's enemy and destined to die on the battlefield."

And why is that so important? I can guess what the other ship's answer would be to this. Something about XY just wanting her "soul mate of the friendship kind" buddy to be happy and free. But the other ship is rather notorious for a lack of considering context and synthesising information ;-).

So what is the correct answer here? The correct guess will provide you with the answer to your question :-)

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HeadInTheClouds
 MountainPine:
Soldier: I did not love her. I am just in such a state... who will take care of me? 
- You lived with her for 13 years!!! For what?! (if you didn't love her)
- Because I felt pity for her. She could not let me go (wanted to be with him, loved him before the injury and after)...

Dude already told us why he stayed with her for 13 years despite not loving her. It was because it benefited him. It's right there in the very first sentence - "who will take care of me in this state?" 

The wife was willing to take care of him, so he stayed with her. Out of fear. Out of convenience. It was horribly unfair to her. He had essentially robbed her of 13 years, which she could have spent pursuing other things or another relationship that was built on something other than fear and convenience from the other party. 

I've mentioned this in my piece on Jing, but I questioned his "love" for XY. Like this soldier, Jing lost his "self". FFYY recoiled at his scars-riddled body. Wen Xiao Liu didn't; Wen Xiao Liu "blushed", making him feel like a man again, so he clung onto her like a leech.

It's not comfortable to admit this, but many people stay in relationships out of fear and convenience. Many people are self-serving, and many relationships are transactional in nature. The less evolved a person is, the more likely they will be to engage in transactional, self-serving relationships (according to me :-)). 

The YaoJing relationship is quite transactional if you think about it. It started with the transaction of the 15-year contract. 

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Kokuto
 HeadInTheClouds:
The YaoJing relationship is quite transactional if you think about it. It started with the transaction of the 15-year contract.

It actually started almost the moment they met.  Remember, XY left Jing to die the first day.  It was another day when she went back, and saw the flower, that she decided to help him, but she deliberately stepped on 'his' flat bread to make it a transaction, that she 'owed' healing him for that.

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MountainPine
 Kokuto:

It actually started almost the moment they met.  Remember, XY left Jing to die the first day.  It was another day when she went back, and saw the flower, that she decided to help him, but she deliberately stepped on 'his' flat bread to make it a transaction, that she 'owed' healing him for that.

Why didn't I notice this? How many times do I have to read it to notice such an obvious things? 

In a situation where it would have been perfectly healthy to immediately try to save the person, Xiao Yao behaves in an unhealthy way and doesn't react to the situation for a whole day, and when she finally does react, she still needs some reason (transaction) to just act like a normal person...🥴🫠

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MountainPine
 HeadInTheClouds:
Time for a pop quiz: what is the basis of the YaoLiu and YaoXuan relationships?

What an interesting task!

It is unlikely that true love has a basis.  But still... Something that caught Xiang Liu's attention at their first meeting and triggered his feelings could have been the fact that Xiao Yao had mercy on Jiu Jiu and said that she would not sell it for money but would let it go (Xiang Liu was caught and sold for money). He heard her words, and I think it was absolutely impossible for him not to be moved to the core... might it be the moment he fell in love? (Like in Filter, he fell in love when seeing her saving a child). Probably he associated himself with all magical creatures. And Xiao Yao's firm and brave attempted to save Jiu Jiu from death...  And also the  fact that later Xiao Yao didn't think he was ugly because of his 9 heads (it's not pity, like in the case of Jing!). And the fact that she wasn't afraid of him, so he finally met someone he felt equal with.

I believe that it was love from first sight on Xiang Liu's side. At their first meeting, his behavior changes dramatically and real cruelty to Xiao Yao  appears only at that very second when his soldier appears on the horizon. But up to this moment - he is extremely intrigued and communicates with Xiao Yao quite indulgently and tolerantly, considering that his friend was already lying on the ground poisoned by her. Later, he feels pity for her being "unable to protect herself" and so on. But I believe, even before that he was already... caught.

The trigger for the emergence of Xiao Yao's feelings for Xiang Liu could be the moment when he asks her "Who are you?". And she gives an answer that she may not have given to anyone  before. A truthful answer about herself. But why did she give such an answer? (Just a minute before she said the opposite: that she has family waiting for her). Was it an desperate and hysterical attempt to save her life by causing pity in the most terrible and merciless demon?  Ha-ha, completely illogical. Or could it be that somehow in an unexplainable way she felt that he was that one who could satisfy her three needs? Who forcibly opened her protective shell? Xiang Liu, or she herself?

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MountainPine
 HeadInTheClouds:
Dude already told us why he stayed with her for 13 years despite not loving her. It was because it benefited him. It's right there in the very first sentence - "who will take care of me in this state?" 

Also, this soldier said that when he came out of the coma, her name was the first thing he shouted (he got used to her THAT MUCH)... But then the soldier claims that no matter what, he still doesn't love her. For me, this is a real example of how many things can look like love, but they are not and never will be love.

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MountainPine
 HeadInTheClouds:
The less evolved a person is, the more likely they will be to engage in transactional, self-serving relationships (according to me :-)). 
Is there anything in Jing's life that is not a transaction? All of his life activities are transactions for HIS OWN benefit.   The only selfless thing I can remember is that he took care of Xiao Yao's former family in the clinic.  In opposite, Xiang Liu's all lives were devoted and given away for others. Nothing at all for himself. So Jingers saying he was transactional is such a nonsense!  Transaction always means you have got something for yourself.

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HeadInTheClouds
 MountainPine:
😆Yes, that means while you're thinking of a smart move/response, they're just flipping chess pieces and 💩 on the board (I apologize, I hope that is not too harsh on them 🫣).

Harsh? Nah! That's about right for many of them :-)


 MountainPine:
What an irony. Xiang Liu loses both in fictional world and in the real world...💔

I wouldn't say that Xiang Liu loses. Don't hate me, but he kinda dodged a bullet with Xiao Yao. It's blasphemous to say that in the XiaoLiu thread, I know. Xiao Yao has a lot of healing and growing to do before she is capable of being an equal partner in a relationship. In the novel, Xiang Liu's death was the catalyst that hopefully pushed her to deal with her problems. Drama's Xiao Yao, though, is a lost cause. 


 MountainPine:
I find Xiao Yao's belief that she should have helped Jing to see that Yi Yang is evil, that she should have interfered in the relationship of an engaged/married couple absolutely disgusting and wrong.

Yes. It wasn't her responsibility to help him break off his engagement with FFYY. This engagement was made by his mother, but, Jing didn't object, and the wedding was all set to go ahead. It's OK that he wanted to change his mind, but he needed to resolve it himself. With or without XY, he would have to do it anyway. However, by doing what he did, he effectively made Xiao Yao partially responsible for the end of his engagement. By agreeing, Xiao Yao placed herself in that position. Now, it wasn't just Jing breaking off his engagement because he doesn't want to marry FFYY, but it's because of Xiao Yao. Kinda like, "I did it for you, so that I can give you 17". I don't think that was intentional, but he really wasn't thinking for XY at all.

Xiao Yao taking responsibility for not helping him showed her foolishness and childish thinking. Going from getting involved with an engaged man to getting involved with a married man (with a child, at that) and helping him get rid of his wife was her getting dumber. 


 MountainPine:
If he can't manage and solve these problems himself and understand the person next to him, these are his own problems and his 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

It's one thing to support someone in dealing with their problem; it's another to solve their problem for them. Xiao Yao didn't seem to understand the difference. It's worse, that this problem was something that he promised to resolve as part of their deal in exchange for her waiting for him. We all have moments where we need support; we need our partner to prop us up. It's just that Jing likes to make promises, but he's not able to keep them, and his moments of weakness are never-ending. Watching Xiao Yao mothered him was sad.


 MountainPine:
I don't know If I am normal, because we live out of comfort zone for a long time and death became something ordinary.

While normality can be relative, I think there are some common behaviours that people would agree are honourable, appropriate and admirable. It isn't always easy to behave "rightly", particularly when we stand to lose something or our survival is threatened. That's probably why we admired those who could do "the right thing", even when it's difficult. Especially when it's difficult. 


 MountainPine:
She is cowardly, self-serving, egoistic, and always blaming others (about abandonment).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by degradation but I do agree that she exhibited these traits, except that her "egoistic" is rather the opposite; she doesn't think she's good enough. At least for XY in the book. Drama's XY is more fitting for the egoistic mould. 


 MountainPine:
"she didn't make an effort to find out (about life of her "family" from Hui Chun clinic ) not because she didn't care, but because she cared too much".

This is just a bullshit excuse for her fear, avoidance and weakness. Just like Jing's "I know I'm not good enough for you, but I can't let you go" mantra. I'm not fond of this rhetoric because it's self-serving. It's more about their feelings and their needs than about the other person/people, but it's cloaked in pretty, acceptable language that is meaningless. 


 MountainPine:
She abandoned people even more than was abandoned herself.

It's a classic case of leaving first before being left behind. I know that the YaoJing sees her taking steps towards Jing as a sign that she loved him and is "healed", but she never really had this fear with him. Particularly after the assassination, with Jing being unable to live without her. With Jing, it was more about him being able to make good on his promise. The writer got rid of his grandmother, and XY got rid of FFYY, thus, freeing him up to keep his promise. She might as well buy her own ring and throw her own wedding, since this guy is not much good for anything except showing up after everything has been done. 


 MountainPine:
it's like for some reason she's desperately trying to convince HERSELF that this is right decision and they'd make a good couple...

Look, her novel is a romance, so she needs to sell romance. Even when it's shit. 


 MountainPine:
I am the kind of person who would confess my love to a man even if I felt that the chances of shared feelings were 5%. And I would be ok if rejected.

Because you are self-possessed. You know what you want clearly and are not hampered by a fear of rejection and abandonment like Xiao Yao. So you can make your choices clearly and freely, confident enough that, regardless of the outcome, you will be able to deal with it. 

Xiao Yao is the opposite. Passive, waiting to see who will put out first, who can offer her the best deal and too fearful to actually live and love freely. 


 MountainPine:
Xiang Liu's argument "the best ending for a general is to die on the battlefield" (don't try to "come closer" to me, it doesn't make sense because I'm going to die soon) - would not work for me.

We need to consider his comment in the context of his situation. "The best ending for a general of a dying/defeated army is to die on the battlefield". And he is trying to dissuade Xiao Yao, whom he knew didn't have the guts or the resolve to actually pursue a relationship with someone whom she sees as doomed for death. Not everyone is like XY. There are people like you who get married to soldiers, knowing the risks.


 MountainPine:
Therefore, probably the biggest question for me in this novel - did Xiang Liu at any point actually want her to confess to him directly and unequivocally and admit her feelings to herself and to him? If not, then why did he even ask her that 4th question, for what?

There are 2 main thoughts on this. But what is your opinion?

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