Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 Kokuto:

XY stayed in Jade mountain for 70 years, thus when she left Jade Mountain, she was older than 80 years old. And she was still a kid at that time. 

Therefore, Tu Shan Zhen was still a kid by the time TSJ married XY

Let me ask then, what is the gestation period for the gods? If childhood lasts at least 80 years, then it would be logical that pregnancy development would also last longer than 9 months.

 Kokuto:

Since they were on opposites sides, their relationship was always going to be difficult, if it was even possible.  It would require a commitment and willingness to sacrifice and compromise

IMHO, it's not that they had any chance of a long-term relationship (unless it's reincarnation, like in fan fiction). I don't see any chance of that. Just a short-term relationship (and I think it was worth it). It's all about her confessing to him. And still staying with Jing, because there's simply no other way out. Meanwhile, they play such complicated games with each other, wandering in these labyrinths of hints and half-confessions... It's really an agony, as Xiang Liu called it.

 MountainPine:

I didn't notice that... Must rewatch. Thank you!
Do you think small things in the drama like that opened window have any additional hidden meaning, or it's just ... nothing?

I don't know if the thread was shown in the video, but it is in a still from the scene.

The window thing in the novel had a purpose, though there's some discussion exactly what that purpose was, so I think the open window in the drama had a purpose.  Especially since they pulled in and focused on it.  Since it also is completely different from the novel, i.e. that XL never closes the window, I do think it implies something different from the novel -- perhaps a revision of how Tong Hua saw the scene or XL's mindset.

https://youtu.be/gf_0e1Vz6Rk?si=EuhcLtFLMTSdC9K5&t=1981

They also changed the window scene between XY and Jing.  Instead of Jing just letting her open the window as she pleases, XY doesn't even unload on Jing, but instead, tries to escape the confrontation and Jing ... thru the window!  lol

https://youtu.be/rllmsl7nvHc?si=sbeYB7LYUkQ-RNYY&t=1162

 Kokuto:

O_O

=_=

I'm sorry.  I thought you had stumbled across that spoiler already.  It was so endemic on the boards.  :(

I've mostly kept away from the board since I still haven't finished the drama, not wanting others' opinions to impact my own. It's alright, the story was heading towards that direction anyway, so I'm not really surprised.

 Kokuto:

Well, I think so, but I'm biased. :)

I still haven't finished season 2, but I have a feeling that you won't like my opinions on it :-)

 MountainPine:

It's just... In real life, I don't think Xiang Liu with his life values and principles fits the Chinese idea of an ideal husband. (And this might be why he lost to Jing in that Chinese online pools). And true love and a perfect match of personalities don't really matter here.  

He may not be the ideal husband for Xiao Yao from her family's perspective, but that would be more because they are not a match in terms of family social standing and background. Love isn't the first consideration for marriage - similar background and standing are. However, from a character perspective, he has all the qualities that they would look favourably on - loyalty, filial, and righteousness. If anything, Jing, with his fixation on Xiao Yao to the exclusion of everything else, would be receiving the side-eye.

 MountainPine:

The problem with the crystal ball is that it was still ambiguous and left Xiang Liu room for doubt, for making choice and for retreat. "If you want - realize that I love you. If you don't want - just take it as a gift to remember the beautiful moments with the mermaids that we watched. You can put the ball on the shelf and remember it when the opportunity arises." That's not what the confession of love should be. It should be unambiguous. Otherwise, it is in a way disrespectful to the person you love.

That was Xiao Yao hedging her bet. Not only was it disrespectful, it was insincere. If she were at all sincere about wanting this chance, she would have called off the engagement, then taken the next step. But this was the pattern for her. She waits for others to declare their intentions and prove their sincerity, but was she sincere in her treatment of them? Look at Feng Long. A complete lack of sincerity towards his very sincere proposal.

She was still engaged to Feng Long and on the verge of her wedding; how exactly was Xiang Liu supposed to read this situation?  And why should he come running at her every summons when her behaviour lacks the most basic sign of sincerity? And when he did come, how did she react? She was angry because he didn't do it the way that she wanted him to. How dare he!

So what did she want? For him to come before the wedding? As XL or FFB? And do what? Run off together? Give up his father and comrades and be FFB forever? Or was she going to be with him until he died? Then what? Off herself to join him?

So many unknown variables. We're debating about what she actually wanted, and yet, he was somehow supposed to know? 

 MountainPine:

Choosing her to the point of abandoning everything and everyone and "walking into the sunset" with her - it would mean betraying his comrades.

But this was what she demanded from whoever she chose to be her companion, wasn't it? Good old Jing was very willing to do that. Xiang Liu and Feng Long weren't.

 MountainPine:

At the beginning of the novel, she asks Xiang Liu the same question.

That was the most blatant, but she lamented about his being tied to Gong Gong and the RA several times.

If Xiang Liu didn't want his feelings to be acknowledged, he shouldn't have kissed her, asked her the 4th question, asked if she would like to leave behind everything and travel with him, and so on.

I won't go as far as saying that XL never wanted his feelings acknowledged, more like XY and XL were never în line with eachother.  I believe their positions got reversed after their 37 years togheter, when XL got to experience what it's like to lose his beloved and XY how it is to live with the one she loves.

"If she answered the last question and it turned out she loved him, what would he do then? What was his plan "B"? Huh."


Going by the drama's script, I believe we do have the answer to that.

" XY (murmuring): Why...
XL: Because...

Xiang Liu did not continue. His eyes were tender, as if everything he had kept deeply buried inside would finally overflow.
The poisonous bugs in both their hearts emitted a glow in unison with their heartbeats.
Xiang Liu stared at the unconscious Xiao Yao, his voice uncharacteristically gentle."
XL: Have a good sleep. You will forget everything after you wake.

IMO, this is not the reaction of someone who's giving up because is disappointed or frustrated over waiting for an answer that he didn't get, more like the reaction of someone who's feeling bittersweet, because the aknowledgement of his beloved's heart still belonging to him în spite of his previous efforts of rejecting her meant also her ongoing longing  for him, and that's exactly what XL tried to prevent by keeping XY at arm's lenght. It is the reaction of someone who loves and who knows he's loved, mixed with the helplessness that he can't give in, because he knows they can't never be togheter, no matter how much both of them want.

"It's so complicated, really. Do you stop loving someone or love someone less when you find out they don't love you back?"

No, but the pain is different. You won't love less, but you'll move on easier, because there's no feeling of betrayal there.
 One thing we know for sure îs that both XY and XL are very loyal people. XY never betrayed XL or CX, and XL never betrayed XY or his adoptive father. XY's promise to her grandma about always protecting CX, as well as the requirements of the Lovers bugs, who never backfired, have both been respected. In this regard they are exactly as Ah Heng and Chi you, who didn't betray either the people or themselves.

Knowing that, if XY and XL were to consummate their relationship, I don't believe someone as loyal as XY would have been able to move on and have her life rebuild next to Jing or a new lover for that matter without seeing that as a form of betrayal, among other things. And XL knew that too.
He also knew since the very beginning that what she wanted most was to have someone to share a peaceful life with, a life she never had and that's what he fought for for her to have, IMO. 

I don't believe XL intention was ever to have her views on what she aims for în life changed, because I believe Tong Hua's view on life is reflected into XL's beliefs, romantic love îs amazing, but don't throw away everything for it, so his approach was rather more like "if you want the life you always dreamed of, than go ahead and fight for achieving it, don't just be a bystander who's passively waiting". XL was smart enough to know that every time XY made poisions for him it was an active effort from her part, while every time she drank Jing's wine, it was a passive effort. CX wanted her, so he kept making mulberry wine for her, Jing wanted her, so he made plum wine for her. She wanted XL, so she made poisons more and more beautiful  for him. She was never growing the seeds for Jing. And so, XL refused to reveal his real feelings to her în order not to get her permanently entangled, and not because he kept waiting for her to firmly choose him. 

By the same token, XY never tried to cross his boundaries either by telling him out loud what we, the readers, wanted so much to hear. Both acted out of love and selfelessness, not out of cowardice, IMO.
 The most she could do was sending him the crystal ball,  because by doing that she revelead her feelings in a way that didn't restrain XL.
 I know that a lot of people believe that XY chose this method because she wanted to let the decision in XL's hands and I agree, but I don't agree with what people believe her intention was. While some believe XY did it out of a lack of commitment, I personally believe she did it out of consideration for XL, she didn't want to restrain XL's free will by putting him în a difficult position. As CX told her, loving someone is like a blanket, it can keep you warm, but if you press too hard, it becomes a burden. She was the one who gave XL the freedom of choice, if you accept me, than that's my love confession to you, if you don't, than I am  giving you the freedom to see it as a last gift and not as a burden.
His freedom and his free will were 2 things XY cared a lot for, hence her honest statement about how she wished she was the one to save him so she can let him be a free FBei.

 XL's final blow to her was to make her believe that he purposely kept his silence about Jing's death. She was în disbelief, but not because she just found out that someone else orchastrated her fiancee's death, but because of XL's attitude towards her. Her first instinct was to question him about why he tells her now about that instead of trying to uncover more about her fiancee's death. That was the real blow to her that night, to realise that the trust she always had în him was a lie and that's exactly what XL aimed for.
Did that diminish her love for him?  No, but when it comes to let someone go, which îs what XL wanted from her, it's easier to let go of someone who didn't cherish you or cared about you than to put your lover to rest while still young, with still a long life ahead of you. She wasn't the type to mourn her lover, let go and move on to rebuild her life with a new lover. This is not who XY was, because if she was,  I don't believe XL would have fallen for her. Both of them fall for the other's loyalty. 

XY wasn't able to betray her feelings for XL not even on her wedding night, when the bugs were already out of the picture and their relationship severed. 

CX's betrayal was a huge blow to XY, but even then, she still put him above herself. She felt betrayed, she felt guilty for Jing's death, so she really wanted to take revenge, but în the end she still couldn't kill him, so she killed herself, because killing him would be like betraying him and even then, CX was still more important to her than she was or Jing was.
 And here is where we see exactly how deep XY's feelings for XL go.
CX's betrayal, Jing's death...she still forgave him.
But when XL, someone who made her believe that their relationship was nothing more than a deal, someone who never gave her any hope, never told her that he cares for her and covered everything he did for her into fair transactions, someone who she only saw like 3 times în the last 50 years or so, died, CX finally became unforgivable.  That was the moment when she put herself above others. Up till then, XY never put CX above XL or the other way around, but she did put both of them above herself.

After Jing came back and she regained her life, for the first time she pleaded for XL's life. On her wedding day! She never pleaded before, not because she didn't care, on the contrary, but because before XL's life was tied to hers. If XL lives, then she will live too. If he dies, than she will die too and that's fine by her, otherwise she would have put some effort in trying to remove the bugs. But now...their bugs are gone...

so when she found out that their bugs have been removed without her knowledge, she couldn't help but asking CX for this first and last favour, regardless of knowing that that's something against XL's will. As I read somewhere, throughout the story, XY's expectations towards XL went from "I'll go with you if you drop everything" to "I'll drop everything if you take me with you"  to "it's ok if we are not togheter, let's forget and remember eachother as long as we're both at peace" to "I'll even accept you using me, as long as you're alive". Or as XL put it, the baby tiger became a thousand year old dragon.

XL once asked her if she wants to remember or forget.
"Remember, even if it's painful and burdensome, I want to remember.

If that's what she wanted, than why did XL, against her will, went to such great lengths to erase himself completely from her life, not even leaving her with his image în the mirror?
 
"Xiao Yao asked “Is it true that one can never forget a person for an entire life?”
 
Depends on who is that person. As Sir Bi said, even if Jing is dead, he îs still relieved that XY" chose" him, because what XL meant to XY, XL knew very well. Therefore he chose to push her away, covering his love into deals, leaving with no trace of him behind, because his ultimate wish to her was" I wish you a lifetime of worry free happiness". 

He refused to be THAT person that XY can't never forget for her entire life, because XL was not Chi You. That's why he refused to sing the last part of his song, the part where he sings about how he wishes for his beloved to always remember him. "If we are not fated to be togheter în this lifetime, it is better to forget each other, not to miss each other, as if we never met, never knew eachother.", that was XL's approach, what he wanted for XY, not for himself, because his path was already approaching the end. 

Speaking of mirrors, I know dream of the red chamber was a source of inspiration for tong hua, but I recall the scene you mentioned differently. On one side there was a reflection of his beloved and on the other side a skull, but it was not the skull that it was forbidden to look at, but the woman. A married woman, the forbidden fruit. It goes without saying that the poor guy died.

I can easily name XY's mirror the mirror of truth. With it, Hou-Ying's affair has been exposed, but also XY's truth. She kept the mirror intact, regardless of XL telling her to erase his pictures from it ever since their 37 years togheter. In the end, when he erased them himself, he was surprised to see that they are still there. He thought that after all the hard work he put into severing their ties, XY would have done that  herself already, but till the end she still couldn't let him go. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

And this is why she needs to heal. So that something like this won't happen again. Yes, she can't change what has happened, and Xiang Liu won't be returned to her, but at least, the next time that something wonderful and precious comes her way, she won't miss it because she was too afraid to reach out for it. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

Something that Xiang Liu couldn't help her break - probably because she didn't want to. Ignorance is bliss, after all. So maybe she'd rather stay in her state of ignorance. Continued to seek solace and that false sense of safety that Jing provides.

I recently saw a video. A bear that had been in a cage for a long time was released into the open space. But it continued to walk in circles in the same place, as it was used to walking in a cage. A trampled path appeared under its paws. If you think about it, Xiao Yao had never actually left the cage, she had remained in an invisible cage all her life. Xiang Liu opened the door of this cage and invited her to come out. But she remains in the cage, like an animal that has been used to being there for a long time and adapted to these conditions, and it is impossible to explain to her that now she can go out. She will not come out.

 HeadInTheClouds:

What you really want is true peace and contentment, and that doesn't come with self-deception. 

I can't remember a single moment in the book where Xiao Yao would want to get rid of her self-deception. But maybe it's in the book somewhere?

 

 HeadInTheClouds:

Maybe with some children who need her and depend on her, little people who can't leave her - this would provide her with a few hundred more years of not having to deal with her issues. Poor kids, though. 

As a mother, I can say that if Xiao Yao does not heal from her personal traumas BEFORE she becomes a mother, her traumas will only deepen. Motherhood does not heal personal traumas. The traumas are passed on to the children.

 HeadInTheClouds:

I've seen the cut of his death scene and cried buckets. And even then, they managed to screw that up for me by including that pearl tear detail. Urg!! 

I'm not sure about my feelings, I think I liked the idea with the pearl tear, but I'm very interested in knowing your feelings and your vision of this scene.

 HeadInTheClouds:

I can't watch anymore, mainly because I really can not stand drama's Xiao Yao, and watching her badly taints the YaoLiu relationship for me.  The writing already crapped on it, and she made things worse - it was like a double serving of sh*t :-).

I understand your feelings here. The actress should have read the actual novel, not just the script. And to find a subtle ways of avoiding scriptwriter's restrictions.

 HeadInTheClouds:

The other reason was that I didn't enjoy the presentation of Xiang Liu in the drama. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

For some of us, this story is unpleasant because what was written was clearly wrong (to us), and yet, it was presented as right or OK. One member concluded that because Xiao Yao's world views and behaviour were screwed up, and this book was written from her perspective, readers who have a "normal" world view experience a kind of cognitive dissonance because we found it difficult to align ourselves with her, but we kept on being asked to do so. 



I just want to note that these comments applied more to the drama adaptation than the novel. The novel did a better job at being nuanced with the relationships and characters, and while Xiao Yao's behaviour was frustrating, the character as a whole was more sympathetic. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

If you're not open to fresh interpretation, then make sure you're sitting down when you watch the trailer :-). 

I watched it. Luckily, I was sitting. 🫠 I could be wrong, but maybe they wanted to convey all that hidden sexual tension that is felt in the book, but is very subtle? Of course they couldn't, because now European and American cinema is basically incapable of covering this area anymore. It always ends up being something disgusting and unsexual.

 HeadInTheClouds:

I saw the Ralph Fiennes and Tom Hardy ones. I thought the Tom Hardy one was quite good. Although considering that I haven't read the book in decades, I don't think I'm the best judge of what is a good adaptation. They did make one in 2011 featuring a black Heathcliff

 HeadInTheClouds:

Did you find that your opinions of the novel changed with time? 

Overall, my love for Wuthering Heights is not less.
The closure I got is powerful, the peace ant the end of the story sounds overwhelmingly. This piece is completed.

Cathy and Heathcliff destroyed each other, but in a way, that's exactly what they deserved. While Xiao Yao and Xiang Liu don't deserve what they have got. Yiao Yao does not deserve happiness, Xiang Liu does not deserve death. It's like a beautiful symphony, that was cut suddenly on a most  emotional note and then you  ask - for what it was even started to play?

 MountainPine:

I accidentally stumbled on this video on TikTok and it so about Xiao Yao...

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMACS9eLp/

I mentioned something similar in my analysis a long time ago.

Attachment trauma is something that you'll find in children who grew up in a neglectful environment, when the child can't trust or count on their attachment figures to meet their needs and in abusive situations, when the attachment figures are the ones who are dangerous and cannot be trusted. Children without a stable attachment figure - for example, those in the foster care system who get moved around from home to home are also at increased risk of developing attachment trauma.  Whether an individual goes on to develop trauma depends on the combination of risks and protective factors that they encounter. 

While XY would probably meet the criteria for complex trauma, I think her attachment trauma felt quite forced. That's not to say that you can only develop attachment trauma in certain prescribed ways, as everyone is different, and how they see the situations plays a role in their psychopathology. The other thing is that the author did use XY's background and experience to underpin her psychological make-up, I don't think she was truly interested in genuinely exploring how this manifests and its far-reaching impact. Rather, it was more like a device to create a barrier to let this sad relationship between XY and XL play out. Does that make sense?

Another thing that I don't quite agree with the video, is that someone can have attachment trauma and still be successful in other areas of their lives. They can still have dreams and ambitions. Many factors determined how the trauma would play out. 

 MountainPine:

I recently saw a video. A bear that had been in a cage for a long time was released into the open space. But it continued to walk in circles in the same place, as it was used to walking in a cage.

It's called learned helplessness. It's when an individual feels powerless to change their circumstances due to repeated exposure to stressful, uncontrollable events. XY does have this trait - she is very passive because she doesn't think that she can change things. This is one aspect of her psychology. (I haven't forgotten that I still owe you that psychological analysis of XY that I said I would write. )

 MountainPine:

If you think about it, Xiao Yao had never actually left the cage, she had remained in an invisible cage all her life. Xiang Liu opened the door of this cage and invited her to come out. But she remains in the cage, like an animal that has been used to being there for a long time and adapted to these conditions, and it is impossible to explain to her that now she can go out. She will not come out.

Yes. It's a combination of learned helplessness and fear that kept her stuck. The author also used the Snake and Fox story as a metaphor for her relationships with XL and Jing, and how she willingly chose to return to the cage despite opportunities to leave. The 8-tailed fox physically caged her, but now she is in a cage of her own making. Sometimes our own psychological cages are even more dangerous than physical ones.

 MountainPine:

I can't remember a single moment in the book where Xiao Yao would want to get rid of her self-deception. But maybe it's in the book somewhere?

Reading this story is like walking through heavy fog - nothing is clear; everything is shrouded in a thick layer of fog. That's because XY herself is unclear, unsure and lacks steadfastness in the matter of the heart. Her self-deception comes in part because of her unwillingness to face the truth. Was she even aware of her own tendency to hide from unpleasant things? Just looked at the scene where she refused to answer the 4th question - her avoidant was so deep that even XL's power couldn't force her to face what she didn't want to face. 

 MountainPine:

As a mother, I can say that if Xiao Yao does not heal from her personal traumas BEFORE she becomes a mother, her traumas will only deepen. Motherhood does not heal personal traumas. The traumas are passed on to the children.

Yes. The term is intergenerational trauma.  Some people go on to repeat the cycle; others overcompensate, resulting in trauma of a different kind. Some tried to use their children as some kind of therapy. Like people who have children because they want someone who will love them unconditionally, thus placing an incredible burden on the children. It takes self-awareness to break the cycle. Poor Tushen Chen looks to be a poster child for the next generation of traumatised adults.