AbuHammer

Aurora, the idea that sexuality cannot exist without a gendered context seems to overlook the experiences of individuals who identify their sexuality independently of gender. For instance, people who identify as pansexual often describe their attraction as not limited by gender, which suggests that their sexuality exists quite autonomously.
Secondly, the terms “asexuality,” “bisexuality,” and “pansexuality” do not necessarily have to reference gender. Asexuality, for example, is defined by an absence of sexual attraction and does not inherently involve gender. Bisexuality and pansexuality are indeed related to the genders to which one is attracted, but this does not mean they are confined by traditional gender constructs.
Regarding your point about the experiences of a genderless person and a gay man, it’s important to recognize that while their experiences with BL content may differ, it does not mean that the genre’s impact is more severe for one over the other. Each individual’s interaction with media is personal and subjective.
Lastly, the suggestion that BL content is not detrimental to TQ+ individuals because it does not concern them is a sweeping generalization. Media representation can have a profound effect on individuals, especially those from marginalized communities. It’s possible for TQ+ individuals to find BL content either affirming or alienating, depending on their personal experiences and the nuances of the representation.

Appreciate the block! It’s a clear sign that some conversations are better left unexplored. It’s an interesting approach, almost suggesting that one might be avoiding a chance to learn something new, isn’t it? Echo chambers are truly best enjoyed solo. But hey, I’m thrilled to share this vast, empty space with you—nothing beats the sound of our own voices bouncing back, right?

Ah, Aurora, it seems we might need to circle back to the basics. Is there a bit of whataboutism going on here? Let’s not get tangled up in that. How about a quick ABCs recap? Reading can be a bit of a puzzle, but with a dash of patience, we’ll piece it together. And as for attention spans, we all have our off days, don’t we?

Oh wow, big round of applause for the debate champ over here! Can’t make a proper sentence but sure can judge my English. Nice one! I’ve answered all your questions, but it seems like you don’t care about what I say—guess I’m just too smart for you. And talking about debates? Go on, show me how it’s done without needing a full sentence.

Aurora, the idea that gender is solely a cultural phenomenon without empirical evidence is a perspective that overlooks the substantial body of research across various disciplines, including anthropology, psychology, and biology. Cultures around the world recognize more than two genders, which points to a human reality rather than a mere social construct. Evolutionary psychology does suggest that some behaviors have biological roots, but this doesn’t negate the existence of a wider spectrum of gender identities. Biology provides a canvas, but culture and personal identity paint the picture.
The biological factors you mentioned, such as hormones and brain structures, indeed influence gender, but they don’t confine it within a binary. The spectrum of gender is a testament to the diversity and adaptability of human beings. Intersex variations, which are more common than often acknowledged, challenge the strict binary categorization of sex and support the notion that sex and gender are not strictly binary. The rights of intersex individuals are about recognizing their dignity and autonomy, irrespective of how we conceptualize gender.
Lastly, the discourse on gender and the advocacy for the rights of intersex individuals are not solely propelled by political motivations or subjective beliefs. They are grounded in scientific research and the fundamental principles of human rights. The term “gender ideology” is often used in political debates; however, the recognition of gender diversity is supported by empirical evidence and aligns with the principles of equality and non-discrimination.

Aurora, excluding the broader LGBT community and recognizing only gay individuals could be perceived as a form of homophobia. The belief that there are only two genders and equating gender with biological sex overlooks the social and cultural constructs of gender identity. Nothing is a stretch.

You are showing your true homophobic colours by dismissing the importance of LGBTQ+ representation in media. You are implying that queer people do not deserve to see themselves and their stories portrayed accurately and respectfully, and that they should be satisfied with the stereotypical and fetishized depictions of BL. You are also ignoring the fact that media has a powerful influence on how people perceive themselves and others, and that BL can reinforce harmful myths and prejudices about queer people, especially in Asian countries where LGBTQ+ rights and education are lacking.

You are wrong to compare BL with Kdramas, because Kdramas are not claiming to represent a marginalized and oppressed group of people. Kdramas are fictional stories that are based on the dominant culture and norms of Korea, which is a heteronormative and patriarchal society. BL, on the other hand, is appropriating and fetishizing the experiences and struggles of queer people, who face discrimination, violence, and stigma in many Asian countries. BL is not just entertainment, it is also a form of cultural production that has political and social implications. It is not enough to say that BL is just a personal preference, because preferences are shaped by ideologies and power structures that influence how we see ourselves and others.

Aurora, your definition of sexuality is simplistic and inaccurate. Sexuality is a complex and diverse spectrum of attraction, behavior, and identity. Sexuality is not dependent on gender, and gender is not dependent on sexuality. There are many people who identify as agender or genderless, which means they do not have a gender identity or feel a lack of gender. Agender people can have various sexual orientations, such as asexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc. Asking a genderless person for clarification or further explanation of their sexuality is not illogical, but it can be rude or intrusive, especially if the person does not want to share such personal information.

You question my qualifications or credibility based on my identity or experience, but that is a fallacy known as ad hominem. You attack my character or motive instead of addressing my argument. A genderless person can have valid and informed opinions on any issue, regardless of their identity or experience. Questioning my qualifications or credibility is a way of dismissing my views and silencing my voice.

You present a false dilemma when you say that the experiences of a genderless person would be different from those of a gay man, and that I am not directly affected by the negative impacts of BL. You assume that there are only two options or outcomes, when in fact there are more. A genderless person and a gay man can have similar or different experiences, depending on various factors such as their culture, background, personality, etc. They can also be both affected by the negative impacts of BL, which is a genre of fiction that features male-male romantic relationships, often written by and for heterosexual ciswomen. Some of the negative impacts of BL include reinforcing harmful stereotypes, objectifying gay men, erasing other LGBTQIA+ identities, and promoting unrealistic or unhealthy relationship dynamics.

You tell me to respect and accept people who are different from me, but you imply that I do not respect and accept the women who enjoy BL. This is hypocritical and manipulative, as you are trying to guilt-trip me into agreeing with you. You are also using a straw man argument, as you misrepresent or exaggerate my position in order to make it easier to attack. I can respect and accept someone’s personal preferences, but still disagree with their opinions or choices.

And thank you for enlightening me with your flawed arguments, which I easily refuted but you conveniently ignored and repeated the same arguments. How kind of you for blocking me. I’m glad you wanted to give me space to talk to myself, because I have so much more to say than you ever did.

You have not shown any evidence that BL has helped you understand and respect the LGBT community. On the contrary, your comments reveal your ignorance and prejudice towards LGBT people. BL is not a realistic or accurate representation of the diverse experiences and identities of LGBT people. In fact, some BL dramas may reinforce harmful stereotypes, such as portraying gay men as feminine, submissive, or predatory.
You admit that you do not understand LGBT people completely, but you still claim to be respectful and aware of their struggles. However, your comments suggest otherwise. For example, you use the term INTERSEX as a condition, which is incorrect and offensive. Intersex is a term that describes people who are born with variations in their sex characteristics that do not fit the typical definitions of male or female. Intersex is not a disorder, a disease, or a choice.

You accuse me of diverting the topic, but you are the one who is guilty of whataboutism, a logical fallacy that distracts from the main issue. Whataboutism is an argumentative tactic where a person responds to an accusation or difficult question by deflection. Instead of addressing the point made, they counter it with “but what about X?”. For example, you ask me what straight dramas have contributed to society, but that is irrelevant to the discussion of BL and its impact on LGBT representation and awareness. You also imply that I hate women and BL writers, which is a personal attack and a straw man argument. A straw man argument is when a person misrepresents or exaggerates their opponent’s position in order to make it easier to attack.

You contradict yourself by saying that you do not claim to care about women, but then you say that you care about humanity and that gender does not matter. If you truly cared about humanity, you would not dismiss the experiences and challenges of women, especially those who are also part of the LGBT community. You would also not condone violence or punishment against people who are wrong, but rather seek to educate and empathize with them.

Oh, Aurora, you poor thing. You must be so confused about what whataboutism means. Don’t worry, I’m here to enlighten you with my superior wisdom. You’re so lucky that I’m not charging you for this valuable lesson. 🙄

Whataboutism is a logical fallacy that tries to divert the attention from the original accusation by pointing out another issue or blaming someone else. It does not address the specific criticism or provide a valid counterargument. It also implies a false equivalence or a false dilemma between the two issues, ignoring the historical and social context and the differences and distinctions between them.

You are using whataboutism to avoid answering the question of how BL has or has not contributed to the awareness or respect for the LGBT community, and how BL has or has not portrayed gay men in a respectful and realistic way. You are also using whataboutism to justify or rationalize your own consumption and enjoyment of BL, by comparing it to non-BL media that also objectifies or fetishizes its characters. However, this comparison is not fair or meaningful, because BL and non-BL media have different origins, purposes, audiences, and implications. BL is a genre of homoerotic fiction that originated in Japan and is mainly consumed by female readers. BL has been influenced by various cultural factors, such as manga, anime, shōjo, shōnen-ai, yaoi, and slash fiction. BL has also been criticized for its unrealistic and stereotypical portrayal of gay men, its lack of representation and diversity, and its potential impact on the perception and acceptance of LGBT people.LGBT issues, on the other hand, are related to the human rights and social justice of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and other sexual and gender minorities. LGBT people face various forms of discrimination, violence, stigma, and oppression in many parts of the world. LGBT people also struggle with mental health issues, such as depression, anxiety, and suicide, due to the lack of support and acceptance from their families, communities, and societies.

Therefore, you cannot simply dismiss the criticism of BL by bringing up non-BL media that also has problems. That does not answer the criticism or solve the problems. It also does not explain why BL should be exempt from criticism or improvement, or why BL fans should not be aware or concerned about the potential harm or influence of BL on LGBT people and issues. Moreover, you cannot claim that if we cannot talk about a certain issue without bringing up other issues, then we should not talk about any issue at all. That is a false dilemma, because there are other possible options, such as we criticize constructively, we criticize selectively, we criticize contextually, or we criticize comparatively. Criticism is not a binary or an absolute, but a nuanced and a relative process that depends on the situation and the criteria.

most of y’all exposed yourself in the comments today 🤭

Q: How do you call someone who thinks that there are only two genders and that being gay is the only valid way to be queer? A: A homophobic bigot

Aurora, You are conflating sex and gender, which are not the same thing. Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define male and female, while gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions and identities of girls, boys, women, men and gender diverse people. Gender identity is one’s internal and deeply felt sense of being male, female, neither or both, regardless of one’s sex assigned at birth. Therefore, one can be intersex and identify as transgender, non-binary, or any other gender identity, or one can be cisgender and identify as transgender, non-binary, or any other gender identity.

You are also ignoring the diversity and complexity of intersex variations, which are not always visible or diagnosed at birth, and which may not fit into the binary categories of male or female. Intersex people are born with sex characteristics, such as chromosomes, gonads, or genitals, that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies. Experts estimate that up to 1.7 percent of the population are born with intersex traits. Intersex people may have any gender identity or sexual orientation.

You are dismissing the human rights violations that intersex people face, such as forced and coercive medical interventions, discrimination, stigma, and lack of legal recognition. Intersex people have the right to physical integrity, to be free from torture and ill-treatment, and to live free from harmful practices. They also have the right to self-determination, to express their gender identity, and to enjoy all the rights and freedoms that other people have.

You are using the term “gender ideology” as a pejorative and inaccurate way to describe the recognition and respect of the diversity of gender identities and expressions. Gender ideology is a concept adopted by a global movement to articulate opposition to gender equality, abortion, sexual education, and LGBTQ rights in areas such as marriage, adoption, surrogacy, and reproductive technologies. It is based on false assumptions and misinformation about gender, sexuality, and human rights.

If you believe that then you are homophobic, you have no right to complain about this drama removing BL elements 🤭

Aurora, You have named a few examples of BL works that are more realistic and positive than the typical ones, but they are still a minority in the genre. BL also erase the diversity and complexity of the LGBTQ+ community, by focusing only on cisgender gay men, and ignoring the experiences of other identities and orientations.
Moreover, even the BL works that you have named are not free from criticism. Some of them still contain problematic elements, such as fetishization, tokenism, and cultural appropriation. For example, “Your Name Engraved Herein” has been criticized for its inaccurate and insensitive portrayal of Taiwan’s history and politics. “Given” has been criticized for its lack of diversity and representation of other LGBTQ+ identities, such as bisexual, transgender, and non-binary people. “Where Your Eyes Linger” has been criticized for its use of the trope of “gay for you”, which implies that sexuality is a choice and can be changed by love.These works may be better than the average BL, but they are not perfect or immune to criticism. They still have room for improvement and reflection.
“BL being created and consumed by “straight” identifying women doesn’t negate the value of the genre” BL being created and consumed by “straight” identifying women does negate the value of the genre, because it shows a lack of respect and understanding for gay people and their stories. Straight women are not qualified or entitled to write gay stories, because they do not share the same experiences and perspectives as gay people. They often rely on stereotypes and fantasies, rather than reality and research, to portray gay relationships. This results in BL works that are unrealistic and negative, and that disrespect and harm the LGBTQ+ community and its struggles. Furthermore, some of the works that you have cited are not original or authentic, but are just variations of straight stories, with the only difference being the sexuality of the character.
Why are straight women so interested and invested in the lives and relationships of gay men? What are their motivations and intentions? How do they view and treat gay men in real life? How do they benefit from the BL genre and its fandom? These are some of the questions that need to be asked and answered, before claiming that BL is a harmless and innocent genre.They are reducing them to objects and stereotypes, that exist only for their entertainment and pleasure.They are also reinforcing and reproducing the heteronormative and patriarchal structures of society, by assuming that gay men are just like straight women, and by imposing their own expectations and norms onto them. They are also creating and consuming a genre that is not for them, but for LGBTQ+ people, and by doing so, they are taking away their voice and agency, and their right to tell their own stories and express their own experiences.
You may be a member of the LGBTQ+ community, but that does not mean that you speak for the entire community, or that you represent its diversity and complexity. The LGBTQ+ community is not a monolith, but a spectrum of different identities, orientations, expressions, and experiences. There are many LGBTQ+ people who do not like or support BL, and who have valid reasons and criticisms for doing so. There are also many LGBTQ+ people who are not aware of or involved in BL, and who have different forms of media and representation that they prefer and enjoy. There are also many LGBTQ+ people who are marginalized and oppressed within the BL genre and fandom, such as lesbians, bisexuals, transgender, and non-binary people, and people of color, who are often stereotyped, erased, or tokenized. How can you attest to the involvement of gay people in the BL fandom/community, when you ignore and disregard the voices and experiences of so many other LGBTQ+ people who are also part of the community?
“It has positive impact on the real world” You have not provided any evidence or examples of how BL has a positive impact on the real world. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence and examples of how BL has a negative and damaging impact on the real world. For instance, BL has been shown to influence the attitudes and behaviors of its consumers and creators, in ways that are harmful to LGBTQ+ people and their rights. Some of the negative effects of BL are:
It creates unrealistic and unhealthy expectations and standards for LGBTQ+ people and their relationships, such as the idea that they have to conform to the roles of seme and uke, or that they have to endure pain and suffering for love.
It fosters ignorance and prejudice towards LGBTQ+ people and their issues, such as the idea that they are abnormal, sinful, or sick, or that they need to be cured or converted.
It encourages appropriation and fetishization of LGBTQ+ people and their cultures, such as the idea that they are exotic, erotic, or trendy, or that they can be used as accessories or props.
It discourages activism and allyship for LGBTQ+ people and their causes, such as the idea that they are already represented and accepted, or that they do not need any support or solidarity. These negative effects of BL have real and serious consequences for LGBTQ+ people and their lives, such as discrimination, violence, harassment, bullying, isolation, depression, suicide, and more. How can you say that BL has a positive impact on the real world, when it causes so much harm and suffering to LGBTQ+ people and their communities?
“The primary target audience of the “romance” genre is “straight” identifying women” This is a generalization and a simplification of the romance genre and its audience. The romance genre is not a homogeneous or static category, but a diverse and dynamic one, that encompasses different subgenres, themes, styles, and formats. The romance genre is not only for or about straight women, but also for and about LGBTQ+ people, people of color, people with disabilities, and more.
“Given the established inclination of women to consume romance, it follows that BL would attract a female audience” This is a logical fallacy and a false equivalence. Just because women have an inclination to consume romance, does not mean that they have an inclination to consume BL. BL is not the same as romance, and romance is not the same as BL. BL is a specific and problematic subgenre of romance, that features unrealistic and negative representation of LGBTQ+ people and their relationships. Romance is a broad and varied genre, that features realistic and positive representation of different people and their relationships.
“Men should learn from women and get in touch with their inner romantic hero” This is a sexist and heteronormative statement, that assumes that men and women have inherent and fixed differences in their attitudes and behaviors towards romance, and that women are superior and men are inferior in this regard. This statement also implies that men need to emulate women, and that women are the standard and the norm for romance. This statement also ignores and dismisses the diversity and complexity of men and women, and their experiences and expressions of romance. This statement also erases and excludes the LGBTQ+ people, who do not fit into the binary and the norm of men and women, and who have their own forms and meanings of romance.
A potato that generates worse arguments? That's un-spud-dable. Your chip has the logical skills of a root and we are in for bland non-sequiturs. Please consider downgrading to a less irritating vegetable.

Aurora, you have failed to defend your views and refute mine, and you have resorted to blocking me instead of engaging in a civil and rational debate. This shows how weak and illogical your position is. Your views are based on several fallacies, misconceptions, and prejudices, and they are insensitive and disrespectful to the LGBT+ community and its representation. Let me explain why.
You claim that adaptations carry more cultural weight and reach a wider audience than the original works, and that most people don’t have the time, interest, or resources to seek out the original gay work. This is not true, because there are many examples of adaptations that failed to capture the essence or popularity of the original works, such as The Golden Compass (2007), The Last Airbender (2010), and Artemis Fowl (2020). Moreover, there are many ways to access and enjoy the original works, such as online platforms, libraries, book clubs, and podcasts. An adaptation does not erase or replace the original work, but rather complements it or contrasts it. An adaptation that changes the gay aspect of a story does not deny representation to gay people, but rather offers a different perspective or interpretation of the same story. There are many other works that provide authentic and diverse representation to gay people, and an adaptation does not diminish or overshadow them.

You also claim that censorship has political and social implications, and that art is not separate from society. This is not true, because censorship is not always a political or social act, but sometimes a creative or artistic one, and that art is not determined by society, but by the individual artist and their vision.

You further claim that artistic freedom doesn’t exempt artists from criticism, and that my critique of BL contradicts my defense of artistic freedom. This is not true, because artistic freedom does not mean immunity from criticism, but it also does not mean conformity to criticism, and that my critique of BL is not an imposition of external expectations or demands on BL creators, but rather a valid and constructive feedback that can help them improve their craft and broaden their audience. BL is a genre that involves human characters and relationships, and it should be accountable to the standards of quality, diversity, and ethics that apply to any other form of art. Critiquing BL does not conflict with the principle of artistic freedom, but rather supports it, by encouraging BL creators to challenge themselves and explore new possibilities. My defense of artistic freedom also supports the adaptation’s choice to change the gay aspect of the story, and it should be respected and appreciated for its originality and creativity.

Therefore, you have no valid basis for your claims, and you have shown yourself to be ignorant, intolerant, and hypocritical. You have also shown yourself to be cowardly, by blocking me instead of facing the truth and the evidence that I present to you. You are not rescuing your sanity, but rather preserving your ignorance and intolerance.

You’re gay and you swear you’re not homophobic, but you believe there are only two genders? You must have missed the memo that gender is a spectrum, not a binary, and that people can identify as a combination of genders, a different gender, or no gender at all. Or maybe you just don’t care about the human rights of LGBT+ people worldwide. How do you explain the existence of intersex people, who are born with variations in their sex characteristics that do not fit the typical definitions of male or female1? Do you think they are just a myth or a mistake?

Aurora, you have blocked me again after responding to me, preventing me from replying to you. This shows that you are afraid to face the flaws in your argument and your homophobic views. Please admit that you have lost this debate.

Aurora, you are making several logical fallacies in your argument.
First, you are using the false dilemma fallacy, which is when you present only two options as if they are the only ones that exist, when in reality there are more. You are assuming that a person can only be either a man or a woman, and that they can only be gay if they are attracted to someone of the same gender. This is not true, because there are more than two genders, and there are more than two sexual orientations. A person can identify as neither man nor woman, or as a combination of genders, or as a different gender altogether. A person can also be attracted to people of any gender, or to multiple genders, or to no one at all. These are all valid identities and orientations that exist in the world, and you cannot ignore them or erase them by pretending they don’t.

Second, you are using the ad hominem fallacy, which is when you attack the person making the argument, instead of the argument itself. You are questioning how a genderless person can speak for gay men or understand the impact of BL, as if their identity makes them less qualified or less credible. This is not a valid way to refute their argument, because it does not address the substance of what they are saying. It is also a form of discrimination, because you are implying that a genderless person is somehow inferior or less human than a man or a woman. A genderless person, or any other person who does not identify as a man, has the right to express their opinions and feelings about BL, especially if they are affected by its negative impacts. Their perspective is not irrelevant or invalid, but rather a valuable contribution to the discussion of LGBT representation and rights.

Third, you are using the argument from incredulity fallacy, which is when you reject a claim because you find it unbelievable or unfamiliar, without providing any evidence or reason to support your rejection. You are dismissing the possibility that a genderless person can have a sexual orientation, or that BL can have harmful effects on the LGBT community, simply because you can’t understand or accept them. This is not a logical way to argue, because it is based on your personal feelings and preferences, not on facts or logic. Just because you can’t believe something, doesn’t mean it’s not true. And just because something is true for you, doesn’t mean it’s true for everyone else. You need to be more open-minded and respectful of the diversity and complexity of human experiences, and not rely on your own assumptions and prejudices.

By denying the existence and validity of other genders and sexual orientations, and by attacking the credibility and feelings of genderless people, you are exhibiting homophobic attitudes and behaviors that are based on ignorance and intolerance. You should educate yourself on the diversity and complexity of human experiences, and learn to respect and accept people who are different from you.

BL has not contributed to your awareness or respect for the LGBT community, as evidenced by the comments. Instead, BL has only encouraged the objectification of gay men. I don’t understand why you are diverting the topic to straight drama issues. That is whataboutism, a logical fallacy that distracts from the main issue. You claim to care about women, but you also said that the FL in “my happy ending” deserved to be abused and cheated on because of her mental illness. How can you say that?

too late