Frings

Some originally really quality dramas have burned us before right near the end... :'( It makes us afraid!

For real, the sudden mood shift was like a sudden screeching pumping of the brakes (aptly so I guess heh), but it was pulled off really well instead of feeling jarring. Props to them, but definitely hoping we continue to get this hilarity.

(Also, the fact that the interrogation was with one of Krystal's previous co-stars in Player really added to the hilarity of him having no clue who Sinah was.)

Now to be tongue-in-cheek... Going with the color theory that red represents HeeDo:
Remember when Yurim claimed YJ had been her first love, and he was like "nah you fell in love with my sports car lol"? Just saying, his car's signature is being very red sooooooo the show basically confirming Yurim's first love was HeeDo. 😌 Thanks for coming to my TED talk. 🙇

I also died laughing when I realized he has a literal matchstick in his mouth, not a cigarette nor a little wooden stick like you'd usually see.

Was thinking more about Seungwan's mom talking about needing to learn how to bend in this (grown up) world so as not to break (amazing scene btw), and I feel like it might become a thing we'll see for each of our main characters.

Specifically for the female characters, so far we have seen Yurim starting out as someone who bends, Heedo as someone who doesn't, and Seungwan quite literally in between. In this last episode we actually saw a huge change for Yurim in her standing up for Yeji majorly against the coach (instead of bending), and I'd argue we've seen Heedo learn how to bend a bit (with her mom, and with the coach as well), plus of course Seungwan making her choice and "breaking".

If we see Yurim quit fencing, I feel like it might be related to this topic now that she doesn't bend as easily. With Heedo, we might get to see her either not bending but still succeeding, or bending further (which would go to some people's feeling of distance with present day Heedo). Genuinely looking forward to finding out... and wishing we had way more episodes during which to see it.

Reckon it's probably because TVN and JTBC are paid TV networks whereas the others are nationwide public broadcasting companies.

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About Hee Do's mom, I genuinely got the impression that for the funeral, she chose to do the news flash moreso because she couldn't handle facing the reality of her husband's death and was delaying it. Kind of like as long as she was at work, she wasn't in a reality where her husband was no longer there. Not that this makes it any better especially as it meant Hee Do had to go through it without her, but I did really appreciate us eventually getting to see in part how hard it was for her as well.

This show genuinely makes me laugh so much, hopefully it continues to be this absurd and satyrical.

Missing the chemistry between the leads... :( still wish we got to see more of them together!

Hey, I appreciate it! I hope I wasn't too aggressive in my responses as well, I apologize if so because I also get a bit aggravated by being accused of that stuff. Honestly, I'm in completely the same boat as you about people misusing those terms for the same reasons. Not only that, but some people's seeming inability to allow the space for healthy relationships (in general, not specifically romantically) between men and women in certain scenarios is disturbing to me, because while acknowleding potentially icky or downright bad things is important, so is celebrating the good things and the fact that there's so many dynamics that CAN exist healthily. Regardless, I appreciate the discussion and having the space to clarify my stance better, and understand why the knee jerk response from the way I worded could cause it.

I really appreciate your thought out response! Thanks for joining the discussion.

First I want to say that while the discussion evolved into a lot of what grooming is or is not, likely because of my initial wording (in that it would feel KIND OF like grooming **IF** they were to tackle this badly in my opinion), I don't think and never did think Yijin is currently grooming her based on the content we have thus far - and even if he were, it would likely be unintentional from his part. (Thing is, he's a character - and while he can be unintentional and we can read his intentions and morals in detached ways, the writers exist in the real world and are aware and actively taking decisions with the script; that's why I'm more interested in what they will decide to do than necessarily personally invested in the outcome.) As you said, YJ and Heedo share a special bond - and I think its value is bigger than whether or not it's romantic, because they have helped each other through things each of them needed support during, for no reason other than that they wanted to. It's a beautiful human connection (among many other ones in the show) that is nice to see being portrayed with tenderness like this show does. That's why I am afraid of the writers potentially "ruining" it so close to the finish line.

I like color theories when it comes to shows, so I'll have to rewatch the kiss scene to see if I notice that about the shadows because it's a neat interpretation. Definitely Heedo with the red has been a consistent usage, which is lovely. The way tone and hue are applied in the show is really nice, for example with the ambient shots from the past vs present having distinct identities and helping us really revel in that nostalgic feeling and in the separation between the times.

I also agree in that as of now Yijin hasn't kissed her back - that was the one part I liked about that scene too actually hahah. That being said I don't really ship them at all - I mentioned elsewhere that I actually prefer Heedo with Yurim, and I actually meant it. I could talk about those two a bit more poetically and fondly than I can Yijin and Heedo since it's a different focus for me.

I also think your perspective on the ex-bf scene is perfectly applicable as well. My feelings on it aren't based on whether or not YJ is grooming her (again, I don't think he is), but moreso that I felt a bit angry for him seeming to feel like he has the right to make those types of decisions in her place (of who is good enough for her or not). Like you said, this was probably out of a protective place, not just jealousy. Basically I think that if the ex-bf wants to get back together with her, it's not Yijin's place to make the decision of whether or not he can or should - it's Heedo's. I'm honestly not sure what I think about the ex-bf's intentions (and not sure what the writers intended from that scene either... it was a bit confusing storytelling-wise until we get to see what comes next), but I think your read on it makes sense. I only don't agree that the scene showed that Yeejin isn't crossing a line with Heedo because of him being aware of her inexperience - for me at least, it didn't manage to convey that. The writers have made it a point to show how he's aware of their differences, not just here but in many scenes throughout the show, but I think maybe they haven't done as good a job at tying that knowledge in with his feelings. Is he in love but knows she's too young? Is he not in love, just loves her deeply and platonically, and is only now starting to see her differently? I think it's hard to know for sure, really, until the writers actually take the step into romance, because our POV so far is mostly Heedo's.

To jump off your last point on how some people seem to perceive this: I think that yes, societally we have a long history of age gaps in relationships between older men and younger women/girls being accepted and not looked at as something that serious, and it's only a very recent notion (historically) that this is an issue, and it's not a notion everyone shares yet. Heck, the notion of a "teenager" is still very recent historically too, it's changed a lot just in my lifetime. These things take time on all sides: legally, communally, scientifically, etc. So yeah, in real life we can definitely point to a lot of similar relationships that were born with scenarios of gaps like that, but I don't think that that in and of itself should make us believe it's right - it means we need to be more critical of these things in real life. And no matter the topic, we'll always be able to find a worse example of something, right? I think it's dangerous for people to always dismiss concerns about things unless they are fitting what they consider of "actually bad" case scenarios. So yeah, how we look at media is really only a small thing, and it's inherently tied to what matters which is the real world (of course media impacts how we look at the real world and vice versa). I think a 27 year old dating a 17 year old is wrong regardless of what term is applicable to describe the dynamics at hand, and as an older woman I deeply distrust men who see no issue with similar things and aren't willing to engage with the topic as anything more than overblown concerns. I'm also concerned for women who share that position with them. (In absolute summary of this paragraph: the patriarchy is very old, is very bad, and is ingrained everywhere.)

Back to the show however, I also understand the attachment to/appreciation of their bond and wanting to see it flourish successfully. I don't share in the hope personally (let me get to writing that Heedo/Yurim fanfic...) but I absolutely understand its appeal as well as Yijin's appeal as not just a character but specifically a male character in a romance with great direction. We share the hope that they will do justice for the positive bond they've established so far (and a bit worried on how much we'll get to see given we don't have many episodes left...), so definitely impatiently waiting for next weekend to find out. Thanks again for the addition to the convo, I love this type of in depth discussion!

Yeah, I'm basically hoping they continue to pull of the dynamic they've already established for them. I agree it'll feel a bit like he's been leading her on, but I think if they stop now it'll feel like he did it unintentionally (versus if he doesn't stop now but then maybe does so later?). I think for him not to come off like a jerk it might need the writers to have him acknowledge that he got a little carried away, but it'd probably still be hurtful for Heedo even if he's not a jerk while doing it... I think it would be interesting to see them tackle that together and eventually grow from it/past it. (Also, I'm bad at the threading system here so I wasn't sure on which comment to reply to if I'm engaging with both of you LOL, sorry)

Fair enough! The threading here confuses me sometimes, my bad.

Here's hoping too! I honestly believe the writers can do a good job with this going forward if they're attentive to people's concerns like you said. It just might make it a bit of a longer wait for the Yijin/Heedo shippers though... haha. Still really curious about present day status of them both and the others too. At least we know he's alive!

I'm not American, nor am I sharing my age to try and validate my points based on it. :)

I also do not uphold weird notions about legality being equal to morality when talking about consent and age of consent.

And again, I have not said their relationship so far is bad. Please stop making arguments at me about things I am not saying lol, I like to have discussions but this is going in circles.

Again, I never said their relationship is abusive. Given that context matters: I have provided plenty of context in all my comments about why it's not a good thing, but you ignore that and address points I never made instead. I don't need you to agree with me or my point. I'm still enjoying the show and hopefully will be able to continue doing so if the writers tackle this well, because as I said before, they can still pull off a nice romance between them for this if they handle it well. (Not that I particularly care about their romance for the story, mind. I'm more of a Yurim/Heedo person myself if I have to pick a relationship, otherwise I'm just here for the journey.)

A young man being mature in a relationship with a teenager (she's still a teenager, still in school, trying to get into college) does not make him her parent... it just makes him his age. A 23 year old guy is definitely still super young, but he's not a boy anymore and hasn't been for a good while.

Your view on what matters or not when you're in love is your own, and I don't want to discredit it. I myself also think that as of now, the feelings themselves aren't an issue: especially Heedo's feelings for him. For me it's going to be about the actions from here on out for me personally. I've enjoyed their dynamics until last episode, kind of like in My Mister which is probably one of my favourite dramas ever. I really did mean only to maybe help you understand better why some people don't feel great about the age gap in that it's not about the number of years in itself.

By the way, when I mentioned Heedo's inexperience vs Yijin's experience, I mostly meant inexperienced when it comes to relationships: friendships and romantic relationships alike. She's talked about it herself, and that's a sore point for her when she finds out how experienced he is in contrast. She's only just started having actual friendships, and had never dated until what's-his-name. There's also life in other ways than you mentioned however: she doesn't yet know how the grown up world works, what it's like to have to sustain yourself monetarily, etc. , which are things Yijin has been and is going through. Of course each of them has different experiences when it comes to their life histories however, and I loved getting to know their characters so far.

You are deliberately overlooking my points to argue against something I'm not saying. This comment is purely about age gaps in relationships, and I'm not even addressing Yijin and Heedo at length nor did I say it's abusive or manipulative; I'm literally explaining why people take issue with the age gap despite it "just" being 4 years.

Buddy I don't need to google something I'm well knowledgeable on. I have elaborated on my second comment if you want to actually engage in the conversation, but it'll require a more thorough understanding than googling a dictionary definition of a term.

As for your "please tell me where the abuse is", I will actually engage in good faith with you: you don't evaluate social dynamics as bad only when abuse happens (whatever may be the definition you choose to apply to abuse here). Things are generally bad before the "actual" abuse people think of, which is why the word "unhealthy" is used for relationships so often. Things can be bad on a spectrum, and saying "he is not doing sexual trafficking so it's fine" is a really flimsy argument on evaluating good vs bad thing. Also, when contrasting to an adult, a teenager is a child. Yes, really.

So then, where is the potential for abuse in dating a freshly-aged 21 year old that you have been close with since they were 16 and you were 20? It is in that in being an adult, you have power over a person who has not yet grown into themselves nor learned about relationships. You hold power over them due to your age, financial status, experience (personal and professional), and if you encourage the teenager in their crush of you and inhibit them from having romantic relationships with their peers because you deem yourself the judge of what is "good enough" or bad for them, not to mention because of your own jealousy of wanting to be with them later, you are using the power you have to have control over their romantic ideations and desires, because you know they'll listen to you because you're older and wiser. A relationship should never be like that, it should be between equals. Molding someone into what you want out of a romantic (and eventually sexual) relationship is grooming, my dear. You can also do unhealthy things without meaning to, which is applicable here as it feels Yijin has let things get away from him without meaning.

By the way, the document you linked to about sexual trafficking actually points out why I disliked Yijin's scene with Heedo's ex: isolating her from romantic prospects with her peers.

So then, why would I say it would feel like grooming if the writers make them be together without a break as soon as she turns 21? Because if they do, that will change the context of their past platonic dynamics: it will feel like he's only waiting for it to be legal to be with her, rather than caring about morality, unless the writers really work overtime on the script to try to have him say "just" the right things. Then it'll be just bad writing and feel cheap. If they do that, here's how it reads: Yijin not deterring Heedo's attachment to him, encouraging her feelings for him, putting himself into a position of deciding for her what is good or bad for her, wanting to be her savior and protector, admitting she might not know what she's doing but he does, etc, is now read as because he's been in love with her since she was a teenager and because he wanted to be with her then, but couldn't because it's bad, so he waited until it's legally/socially acceptable. It would cheapen the connection they have established and throw away what could have become a really lovely dynamic and story (and maybe even romance).

So is it grooming or abusive right now? No, and I never said it is.

Is it even possible for a romance between them happen without you (me) feeling yikes? Yes, if the writers do it right. He needs to be the adult in the situation and cut things off, and they need to connect again as equals once she grows into herself.