Kateoz

Hmm, but FJ completely ignored FX for his first twenty years of life, and only tried to bring him to the capital at the point when he could be used to reclaim his mother's legacy - in other words all for his mother, not him. Now its true that the relationship between them has evolved into something much more since then, but I mostly think FX is the adult in their relationship, telling FJ what to do (as a proxy for his Mum?) rather than FJ.

And what about his relationship to his own son, which before FX intervened, was pretty neglectful on the face of it?

Most importantly, I'm not sure FX's analysis of the two fathers motives is really correct or fair, just his perception based on incomplete information.

First, although the Emperor does set up the Flower viewing event as a loyalty test, a royal family is a bit different to a normal family - you can't be just a son, if you know you are a son you are also a potential usurper! And notable that both CP and 2P failed the loyalty test - CP seemed to deliberately trip and fall; 2P sipped his wine and watched.

More fundamentally, I think the Emperor was reluctant (and indeed didn't know whether he ever would be able to) to acknowledge FX until he had knocked out the Temple's emissary (the WuZhu twin) because he knew if it became known he was Ye Qingmei's son, the temple (and assorted others such as Empress and her faction) would try and kill him.

Remember back in season 1 where FJ says that he and CPP feel there is a hidden danger to FX that hadn't yet been dealt with? Instead he tried to set up a career path that would have made him the power behind the throne in future by way of compensation.

Interesting analysis , thanks for sharing, but don't think I really agree with this take.

Starting backwards, hard to attribute anything to Ye Qingmei in relation to FX in particular since his upbringing is basically due to his first life (in our time) and his grandmother (where mostly pretending to be at odds with each other) plus tough love regime of WuZhu and Fei Jie. His affinity with his mother's values surely comes mainly from his memories of our time, though does grow as he becomes more aware of her history and agenda.

Secondly, I'm not sure we can assume Emperor was an entirely neglectful deadbeat dad (except for FX) - manipulative sure, but that's different. We actually heard he encouraged second prince to form his own faction and take part in politics for example. Was that purely to hone the CP's talents, or genuinely give him a chance to prove his own merits? Hard to tell.

But the comments (stated in first season and implied in second) about the respective table manners table manners, and hissy fits when people don't get with his agenda in those fabulous family meals both spoke of past occasions, and kind of reminded me of my own (slightly dysfunctional) family dynamic!

What we do hear from Emperor is that he things CP and Second Prince in particular are pretty ordinary in their talents, an assessment shared by the Northern Qi Emperor, and pretty clear when you contrast them with FX who has martial arts abilities, literary talent, ability to manage and interact well with people, a positive agenda, and actual charisma.

Moreover, his disparagement of his children pretty much parallels Fan Jian's reaction to Sizhe - its only when FX intervenes that the Fan family dynamic changes from FJ's neglect of his actual son, and Madame Liu being at war with Ruoruo and Xian because they might impact on her son's inheritance, into something much better.

Thirdly there is no evidence that Empress is neglectful of CP, quite the contrary, from this season it is clear that they interact a lot. It's true she is clearly an alcoholic with some mental health issues due to being punished by Emperor for crimes past (viz demise of Ye Qingmei) but I don't think that explains CP's incestuous relationship with is aunt, which seems anything but maternal!

And on second prince, not sure if we can assume directions of causality! Just because you read books doesn't mean you neglected your child growing up (and the consorts have to fill up there time while locked up in the palace somehow after all, books sounds more interesting to me than fishing!), but if I had a son like him (and she makes it clear to FX in season 1 that she knows his true colours), I too would take refuge in books...

Actually seems to me that Second Prince is most like his father socially. He is not an Emperor who seems to venture out in disguise to find out how people are really doing, instead streets cleared while he gets his bowls of wonton soup! And we never see him interacting with any of his consorts or relaxing really anyone at all except FJ and CPP...

Perfect timing seemed to me a bit thin.

I guess my take was that the relation ship between SYR and Wanning wasn't really a tight secret - at the very least, stupid mother and sister could easily have let something drop, but more fundamentally regular visits to her in palace or whatever are inevitably pretty publicly observable!

Moreover, if an Imperial physician (and family) suddenly disappears after visiting princess, it would be inherently suspicious (one of the reasons I was surprised she killed him).

That said, this was just one example of numerous plot holes and bits of incoherence that suddenly crept in at the end.

Others for me were, was relationship between SYR and Princess always about sex, or was he in the plot to replace Emperor from the beginning? If the latter, why wasn't Chancellor Li in the loop and using influence to get him in a more key position?

And why on earth did Granddad Xiao just imprison Duke Su for five years with no explanation and nothing to do (even if was for own protection)! And why didn't his best friend the Emperor intervene??

Then there was the whole giving the fish pendant away thing in the hope that your friendly neighbouring country will agree to rescue you (and not just take the opportunity to grab your country while at it), which surely never made real sense. Even if it was a genuinely sensible rouse, couldn't they have secretly have separated out some of the army in advance to protect the Emperor, or changed the command pendant secretly or something??

There's more, but I thought while the opening scenarios were improbable they were made plausible; the middle moves by our heroes all seemed to develop reasonably well, but at some point it went seriously off track plotwise!

Also, if he was going to knock off evil princess, why didn't he keep supporting the Emperor rather than Prince Chang, when he would likely be blamed for her death in the aftermath? Could easily have made sure Su got disposed of and gained brownie points...

While revenge/justice was certainly a key theme, seems to me the romantic relationship between the main leads (and rejection of it by ex husband) is pretty central to the storyline.

First in terms of the need for revenge, the triangle between Duke Su and murderer husband was absolutely central, with part of the justice being that she got someone who actually genuinely loved her rather than just exploited her.

Similarly the contrasting relationships of people thinking they are entitled to be loved/control others/ regardless of what they do (Princess, husband, Jiang wife ) vs genuine mutual respect and autonomy in relationships was surely just as much a key theme as revenge/justice.

Thirdly, there was some attraction between main leads from their first meeting, and the storyline showed that relation moving to an explicitly romantic one and marrying them off. Plus also had a number of secondary pairings and love triangles, so hard to say not a romantic drama in themes.

So that they chose not to show the romance on screen or just tease is a perfectly legitimate criticism.

He was actively looking for such a herb. He'd been having sex with princess for ages, why on earth would he suspect that it was a drug and not the natural consequence of his actions. Even if princess had told him she couldn't have children (and no indication that she had), medicine was certainly not to absolutely certain in those times.

And it was never obvious to me why princess losing her baby would cause Li's to be executed - women miscarry all the time!

The last set of episodes for this drama were rather disappointing in my view.

It was always mostly enjoyable, rather addictive fluff, engrossing because of the chemistry of the main leads and some good acting on part of the villains rather than anything more substantive, but from episode 35 onwards, there were more and more plot holes, compounded by a bad ending.

In terms of the ending, why do we have to send our hero off to the border, see him nearly lose, and kill off his stalwart deputies of ML? Completely unnecessary to the plot in my view.

And why do so many of the villains get off relatively lightly? Allowing evil ex to commit suicide after committing treason and multiple murders for example seems unsatisfying.

We also never got any really serious action between the two main leads, just a few seconds of a kiss before they hid it.

Worse, the plotholes were multitudinous - how and why did the ex realise that the pregnancy was fake for example?

All the same, an enjoyable ride in the absence of much else new to watch, and will certainly look out for a few of the actors in future.

Definitely put Nirvana in Fire at the top of your watch list, especially if you into revenge/thriller plots. Its probably the all time best c drama of any kind I've seen to date (though JOL gives it a run for its money. Very light on romance (ML is too busy self-sacrificing), and light on humour, but fabulous all the same.

I think we have to assume she married quite young (anything from 14 or 15 onwards was perfectly common historically) and really was a contemporary of the others - at one point she made a comment to her husband that she would have been at the school for girls has she not been married to him. That said, none of them look like teens, more early twenties!

Interesting contrast, though both seem to me to gain allies and make enemies in the process with aplomb, and it is true that both are essentially about people being used as pawns to achieve the goals of others struggling to become the players on the board.

That said, JOL is in another whole class above this in my view - The Double is really just escapist romantic fun fluff; JOL isn't really a romance at all, but a complex, multi-layered drama. I think its more interesting to contrast JOL with Nirvana in Fire - two different answers to the question of how to go about changing the world, and the personal costs of doing so.

But yes, both are great viewing in different ways...

I agree its overrated for what it is, and certainly won't have much rewatch value given hackneyed and ridiculous plot etc.

All the same, I'm enjoying it immensely as a bit of escapist fluff, and I guess many others are too for the same reasons, and that is what is driving ratings.

Its big advantage over Blossoms (and Wonderland of Love which also has strong similarities) in my view is the chemistry between the main leads, plus FL not quite as may Sueish; its not really the same genre/class as Galaxy, despite some superficial similarities.

I disagree with your comment about the female lead's age though - seems to carry it off just fine to me, with her extra bit of maturity totally fitting the characters background.

I doubt it - will obviously be more, as we've still got to dispose of Mings and presumably bring in the ye shopkeepers, but they've already managed to cut a swathe through a large chunk of those chapters, and suggested they are going in a completely different direction to the novel. In the novel, the various merchants bid to transport and sell the goods; in this version the Mings have completely taken over the workshops - and FX has already put a stop to that!). And signalled his plan is to license the intellectual property, rather than set up his own shadow set of workshops.

Agreed - on the rewatch, where it all fitted into the great storyline becomes more apparent....

@SoloHan - While your summary of the changes is basically right, I think you are unduly dismissive of the reasons for them. The death arc, for example, has been used to tease out whose loyalties are with who, thus foreshadowing future events nicely, to show that the Emperor actually does genuinely care about FX (to the extent that he is capable of, albeit in part because of his elaborate plans for use of him); and to show how important FX has become in the kingdom. I actually think its a very skillful way of showing some things that the novel either just tells, or needed to be modified so we can not totally hate all of the characters! I could make similar points about the storylines you suggest were added to no ultimate effect.

You may well be right about it ending in more or less the same place, though personally I'm still hoping for a change of ending!, I really dislike the fact that in so many c drams the hero rides off into the sunset to travel the world/ die quietly/etc etc instead of actually contributing to society! Worst example was recent Blossoms in Adversity, where they leave behind a child emperor with no obvious protectors/guides at all!

Trying to compare it with Nirvana on fire is interesting, I've been rewatching NIF (for the nth time) just for that purpose, and ultimately can't really decide which I like more.

Both have fabulous acting, plots, script and camera work. The two main leads are pretty much equal in my view, but NIF is much more dependent on him, whereas JOL has several sub-ensembles (Emperor, CPP, FJ; Ruoruo and Fan family in particular) that are gripping, and a cast of many that tell compelling stories in their own right (there a handful of important backstories in NIF, but they are mostly less important it seems to me).

NIF certainly has a lot more martial arts scenes, by dint of the numerous side characters having a fight for fun at the drop of a hat plus a few assassination attempts, but I think JOL's though sparse in season 2, are a lot cooler!

JOL, with its various travels, has a lot more interested scenery and better costumes etc in my view, as well as better music (I really love the incidental music; even that yodelling is growing on me on the rewatch, though I still prefer to e bassoon riff they mostly used in the first season).

One key differentiation between them for me is that JOL is much more multi-layered in the way it tackles the various themes - we get not just the political chess/strategy games between the various players leading up to the end point, but also a lot of implicit commentary on modern society as well as ancient (scammers, celebrity culture, etc etc), literary analysis, coming of age and moving from an essentially selfish perspective to caring about the world and so forth.

And that is in part because while they both tackle one of the same main themes, namely can you change the world, Nirvana's aim isn't to change the system fundamentally, just clean it up, whereas Ye Qing Mei and increasingly FX's is a much more radical vision. As a result, the scope of the two seasons seems greater (whereas Nirvana's second season really wasn't anything like as good as the first).

The other key difference, it seems to me, is that Nirvana's perspective is essentially depressing - how hero has decided he has to sacrifice friendship, love and even his life to fulfill the mission entrusted to him by his father, and there is a discussion in episode 8 where Lin Shu articulates his philosophy, which is essentially that if you have desires and feelings, you can't be happy and carefree ,you just have to keep enduring until it all stops. Fan Xian, on the other hand, is a seize the day kind of person, as reflected in the Li Bai poem that opens the drunken banquet (the poem is called Bring more wine, or bring more wine) who most certainly does not believe in just enduring things until you can fix them twelve years in the future! I can't help preferring the latter philosophy, even if I admire the former!

It also means jol can engage in that wonderful dry humour - my Chinese is pretty elementary at this point, so I only pick up a few of plays on names and words and culture references (and am grateful to those who explain them!), but enough comes through even in translation (and with the visual element) to both reinforce the message of celebrating life even when things seem hard, and counterbalance the horrors that occur along the way.

I think they both deserve a 10...

Pretty sure he's the one who swapped the name, and it remains to be seen if he really is loyal to FX, or just acting for Emperor - always remember the novel is not always the same as the series on some of these points!

Yes - the whole scene, with him helping FX to regain consciousness (even at potential cost to his own qi energy), threatening the Imperial doctor (!), hanging about anxiously while they get ready for the surgery, and making the first scalpel cut when they dither too long, adds more to the idea that Emperor really cares about FX , plus maybe some guilt since he set him up in the first place...

Except that Emperor does in fact practice the same type of qi flow - this whole sequence differs from the novel.

Emperor definitely did something to help save him, and perhaps would have done more (we can't know, since regained consciousness and then took charge of his own destiny!) but whether that was enough, or whether actually fixed by Ku He's technique, or something Ye Liu Yuan did is left ambiguous.

Well, I guess we may find out in the next season, but in the novel at least he didn't really feature after the initial bit.

But a lot of that stuff was never going to be easy to translate to tv, and a lot more would never get past the censors. Combine that with the impossibility of keeping most of the key cast together for enough series to do the full novel - getting back nearly all of them for season 2 was amazing, keeping that up for 3 requires it to be soon!

And personally I thought the whole bidding stuff in the Jiagnan arc in the novel was unnecessarily convoluted. FX's hinted intellectual property/licensing solution was actually foreshadowed in season 1 in relation to his book I think, and makes a lot more sense to a modern watcher.

In the end judging the series in terms of how well it translates the novel to the screen is a mistake in my view - the screenwriter has transformed many characters, and added several layers to it, with some meta around FX and the Dream of the Stone (Red Mansions), literary criticism (the modern day library scenes, and then in various forms in the series), and beefed up the scifi component.

My guess is (and obviously its only that) that they will ditch the whole northern Emperor' s looking for an heir stuff, and probably Haitang's tribal stuff, perhaps even the whole Dongyi segment, and cut to the chase on the Emperor's plan to roll over Northern Qi vs FX's agenda, plus the Emperor's plans to acquire the temple's knowledge (not in the novel at all), plus the threat season 1 told us was lurking under Taiping Villa (and I'm guessing its that the temple is not going to be the same as in the novel...).