Kateoz

I strongly disagree, you really really need to watch s1.

The thing about JOL is that the writer believes strongly in the adage show not tell - characters rarely explain what happened or how an incident should be interpreted, and when they do, its often misleading - instead you have to put it together yourself.

And in this season, every episode has multiple references back to season 1, and only by knowing the events of that do people's reactions make any sense. Even after having rewatched it recently I'm having to go back and rewatch snippets in the light of new info. Even so, I'm also finding people's comments here are pointing out connections I'd missed!

In season 1, he says he is after their technology, but I don't think that is necessarily about immortality, more about technology and especially weaponry (he knows after all about the sniper rifle in the box).

In the novel it is clear that he already has her secrets in terms of martial arts ability, that how he became a GM. And in the novel I don't recall the Emperor looking for the temple at all (doesn't need to, he did a deal with them back in his mother's time, and remains in contact with their minions), it is FX who decides to go, really to find out about his mother and Wu Zhu.

There several clues as to the Emperor's martial arts prowess in season 1 though. First his arrows shooting through metal armour, which we are told means at least level 9. Second, that impressive backflip and side twist to save Fan Xian from Yan Xiaoyi where he suddenly realises he is in danger (when he breaks into Taiping Villa. And the third I thought was the banquet scene, where Eunuch Hong sits outside the banqueting hall to allegedly protect the Emperor - like really, with a level 9 warrior with sword sitting in the hall, could that possibly give him enough time to respond, even if he is a grand master???

Maybe I haven't read the book closely enough, but I don't think this emperor thought he could be immortal - wasn't the immortality thing the Northern Qi Emperor who sent out Xiao En and co?

Yes, apple doesn't fall that far. But I think its not so much ruthlessness as much as that FX hates being manipulated so overtly, and knows its either his father in law who is doing it given previous conversation, or worse Emperor...

Balancing powers between the princes was the reason stated in season 1 (and inferred in s2) for hi taking over the treasury, but I don't think we should take anything people say in this series at face value!

I think FX gets to take over the Treasury firstly because it is rightfully his by right of inheritance as FJ makes clear - set up as a business by his mother.

But more importantly, Princess syphoning off huge amounts of money for her assorted nefarious plans is surely the real reason - and in novel it is clear that the money is needed by the Emperor to advance his other various agendas (such as conquering Northern Qi and everyone else).

And while the censorate issue is about balancing power, it's not so much between the princes, as much as between the six ministries/censors vs the Oversight Office, the latter of which is supposed to be strictly independent, and not work in co-ordination with the Ministries. Issue is more about putting at least some breaks on Fn Xian's potential power.

But in season 2 its made clear that those elite soldiers are actually the Emperor's tiger guards, ordered by the Emperor to protect him. Fan Jian proposing it was nothing more than the Emperor expected, his usual manipulation of situations to make others think they are acting of their own accord (as we know has happened several times with fan Jian, such as the timing of bringing FX to the capital)....

@VincentGoh , clearly some of that is not going to happen (a lot needs to be cut if this isn't going to be 10 seasons!), or will happen through different characters. And I don't think this is about budget constraints.

I agree with @AleksandraSucur and others that the script is a definite improvement on the original novel on a lot of this, and possibly pointing towards a different ending.

In the examination arc, for example, where the novel has him making a lot of mistakes and looking pretty inconsistent, in the series he demonstrates a capacity to take advice which I think is pretty important in establishing his credentials to do greater things...

And the Emperor does indeed embody the lone official approach - apart from CPP and Fan Jian, not obvious that he has any genuine confidantes or followers amongst his officials, as we saw vividly in series 1 in his hilarious discussion with PM Lin over the marriage (remember the coal brazier), the magistrate, and his willingness to do mass purges of officials following CP...

I guess my point is that you need to look at their respective actions, not there words.

I'm not sure that CPP actually commands thousands of soldiers, Shadows division is a bit smaller than that, but I take your point about resources. The thing is though that Fan Jian is a minister, so you would expect him to have some connections and networks, not to mention the capacity to be proactive and plot, in a way that could be potentially employed to help FX out of some of his jams. Instead it is always FX himself plotting how to get FJ and the family out of jams.

There was one situation in s1 when FJ pre-emptively used the Imperial guards (the backstory in the novel, at least implied in the series as well, is that he is in charge of training the tiger guards and has some authority over the Emperor's personal guards more generally), but he justifies it to the Emperor as the action the Emperor would have taken if there had been time to give the order (and Emperor accepts that).

My read of the situation is that FJ is actually totally reliant on Emperor's patronage for his status, has few connections of his own, and has been promoted and given a highly ranked wife because he has taken on the role of FX's protector and as Emperors longstanding friend. He's done fine in that role, but you'd have to say that it was a pretty minimal level of personal effort for the first twenty years of FX's life!

I also thought his comment in season 1 about just protect FX, don't prepare him do great things, was the worst sort of parenting - parents are supposed to help their children realise their capabilities, not to stifle them. The reason is presumably his mother's demise, but even so.

Actually the only one of his four fathers who seems to consistently treat him as one is surely CPP.

The Emperor's relationship with FX is clearly very complex, with more to come, but season 1 did suggest he did actually care about him (to the extent that he is capable, witness his terrible relationships with his other sons!) beyond pure utilitarianism. And the scene in episode where he agrees to back FX's Spring Exam cleanout hints at that too.

By contrast Fan Jian blusters a lot to CPP and Emperor, claiming FX as family, but in practical terms does little or nothing - indeed you could see twitch of Emperor's mouth when FJ claimed he would bail him out of trouble, since in reality it has been Emperor or CPP who has actually bailed him out each time. On the face of it, in my view, FJ is a pretty poor father to any of his children as his treatment of Fan Sizhe illustrates. And where has he been on Ruoruo's marriage?

When it comes to FX, he ignored him altogether for year, hasn't formally acknowledged him (though that may be out of fear of Emperor's reaction), insisted he marry despite his own preferences, and provides little or no emotional or other support - he acts more like a courtier to FX than father.

By contrast CPP has helped him advance his assorted schemes and dug him out of trouble and possibly not told on him to Emperor a few times (though of course we don't know what happened off screen!), and most importantly comforted him after that scene. Where was FJ in all of that?

I loved that scene with Emperor agreeing to be scapegoat and asking him to apply the cream he'd made - one of the few on screen moments when he actually treats FX as a son.

I really loved that convo too - one of the few scenes when anyone genuinely acts as a father figure to FX - as opposed to using him (emperor, PM Lin), making grandiose claims about his relationship to him but otherwise mostly ignoring him (Fan Jian). CPP both comforts him, explains and prods him along the path of his mother...

lol, I thought I was the only one doing this!

Hmm personally I've already rewatched quite a few scenes! Actually thought the early episodes were a bit slow and hard to get through on the first run, but rewatching them, especially after seeing what they were setting up, I've changed my view and love them.

I've seen all of those bar Journey to Love.

I think the issue is primarily the billing as misleading advertising rather than not having major male or female characters per se.

The main reason many of these dramas have two main leads is because they involve a romance as a main theme, and where that isn't the case, such as JOL, it becomes harder to maintain equal roles for both male and female lead. I suspect in the case of Chinese dramas like JOL the reason for the billing has to do with official requirements for dramas (women hold up half the sky after all...) - assuming I'm correct its a positive thing, but illustrates the principle that laws can only be designed to fit 80-90% of cases, and their need to be exceptions!

In any case, my views is that, soapies aside, until relatively recently very few Western dramas really had more than token female characters (think the original Star Trek, or Morse). On the whole Korean and Chinese dramas do much better in terms of well written female characters who actually interact with each other, but typically because they interact within their own spheres (within the harem etc), commenting on/responding to the men's actions, or else are cross dressing as males (a trope I pretty much hate!).

But there are a few excellent reverse role shows that more or less manage a balance - Under the Queen's Umbrella for example, being a standout.

Its fun and light fluffy, but entertaining and leads are both engaging. It's great plus is, wonderfully female centric, and worth watching for that alone as so rare. Downside is that female lead is a total mary sue, to the point of utter ridiculousness.

I don't think we can assume that what someone says in season 1 will necessarily be their final word - in season 1 FX was still looking at marrying Waner then running back to Danzhou, only went North in order to maintain the marriage; now he seems committed to being an official, but things could change again. And I don't think its impossible tht they could change the ending (and I'm personally hoping they do!).

PS I think the censorship mostly actually helps - I find most contemporary Western dramas unwatchable due to the soft porn and relentless negativity...

Totally agree - season 1 was great, and I rewatched it several times, but Season 2 is another level, plus the way the two seasons intersect at multiple is so well done. I've watched a lot of c and K dramas, and this is far and away the best written and acted one I've seen. I'm rewatching Nirvana on Fire at the moment just by way of comparison (since its my second favourite C drama, but powerful as that story is, this has so many more layers. Next on my all time great tv list are all now very old Western dramas (but maybe that's just showing my age!).

Agree that the show could have done more in pumping up some of the female roles (having just watched a scene between FX and Wan'er where they could have given her more agency in providing insider advice/perspective but instead FX just says they are on the same page, I've got it).

But I really don't think it is fair to see the minor female roles as tokens - while we are obviously missing the Princess Royal so far this season by way of major characters, there are lots of female characters who have distinctive arcs that parallel the minor men's, and a few pointed to so far that will clearly become more prominent in the series such as Empress and Haitang.

The problem is, this is primarily a political drama in a traditional society in which women don't have court roles unless they are pretending to be males (and that's one of the reasons why our hero wants to change things), and that limits what you can do.

Some c dramas solve this by inventing female official/military roles that if they ever existed, were the very rare exception not the norm; some insert historically impossible Mary Sue types; some by involving the harem as key players (rather than the bored prisoners they mostly really were, as this one makes clear), but while these can be enjoyable, I'm not convinced any of these solutions are all that convincing.