But the part I'm curious about is if you're watching a BL and it's absolutely implied that dicks are involved (because they absolutely are in every way irl sex between two men, just like a man and woman) then is it that you don't see the dicks in BL? Does not having to see it make it easier to watch? If they showed full frontal nudity in BLs would you stop watching? I'd also have to assume that females who fall into the category I know of i.e (attracted to men) are gay porn watchers (not all obvs, but enough of them) and the rest aren't. (this last sentence is just my specualation)Lyson:
Well, it also depends on the BL you watch. Sometimes I watch questionable themes movies and series. These sometimes include "full frontal nudity"... and triggering themes. Playboy and the Gang of Cherry is one such movie. I started watching these types of movies because Gun Atthaphan Phunsawat starred in this one. And then it became like a challenge, to watch one such type of movie/series a year. It's for all intents and purposes "pink films". I don't get aroused while watching them though. Although if they were between two women, sure, I'd be interested more. I actually have lined up at least 2 of these, that are lesbian. Unfortunately they have straight sex scenes as well, which is a major turn off... but beggars can't be choosers. I doubt there is a pink film that is lesbian only.
Now, I digress. In my life I haven't seen a dick irl. I'm 31 now and I do hope to never see one... that is, if a man doesn't show it himself without my wanting him to do so, in my vicinity. Because some men are like that, they'd wave their stick everywhere irl, it's annoying and puke inducing.
I am aware that these two sentences above are contradictory a bit and the thing is: they kinda aren't in my mind. Because when I'm involved I'm totally uninterested because I'm a woman. But if two men? Sure, they can have at it, however much they like it. Fun fact but I had a crush on a guy for 4 years, he was one of my best friends at the time. When I tried to imagine myself having sex with him I'd keep being physically uncomfortable and in my mind I'd blast him through like several walls just like in anime... because I didn't want it. That's not normal.... so I supposed I had dick revulsion/aversion, whatever you call it. And I still think that, an almost full 10 years later after we talked last. But what changed was: I wrote a fanfic about him this year. It's one where I touch him physically, but I don't touch him sexually. Sensually but not sexually, if that makes sense (it does, it's just my 5:30 am mind saying otherwise).
Btw, I apologize if my post doesn't have ideas sorted out in one place and it's just a cluster of a post and several ideas at once. I just woke up and much earlier than I expected to wake up. lol waking up at 5 am is not for the weak! Not for me. Another btw, if you want to quote part of a person's message, just select the text on a laptop/PC and hit the quote button that appears above the selection. This doesn't work on mobile though.
Now, back at the subject at hand. As for porn, I read explicit gay fanfics all the time but the sex acts are just described. They're not visual, even if my mind does imagine them... and then some. But like, that's still not visual, not exactly. My, now former, porn habits are weird though. Now I don't watch porn anymore (and hope to quit for good this 2025) because it's trash that only makes you addicted over time and also because women are brutalized in this industry (feminist typical reason). But when I watched, I watched 2 types: lesbian porn and (consensual) tentacle porn. Now, you may notice one is not like the other and that's fine but for me it wasn't. This latter thing is a remnant from those times in high school I watched some gross shit and then, it stuck in my mind apparently. I am both grossed out and aroused at the same time and idk what to do with this so I'm putting it down. As for lesbian porn, it's all fine, I love it. With the exception of the dicks you see while going into those questionable websites... like, why does it have to be like that? If one wants to see pussy only, everywhere she goes, she can't. And that's a problem in itself, how males feel the need to insert themselves in everything... but I also know lesbian porn is not for women specifically, so I understand the phenomenon. Anyway, this aside, I really do need to quit watching porn, for my sanity and because women are not treated well at all in this "industry". So far so good? I haven't watched anything in a while... I'm gonna try keeping it this way.
Now that embarrassing thing aside. I mentioned reading gay fanfics, I also read lesbian ones occasionally. But it's rare... I am more into GL movies and series. I think I read straight explicit fanfics twice and it was pegging lol.... anyway. I wrote some gay fanfics and while I deleted two of them along with my ao3 account back then, I also made a new account and now I have 5 things there: like 3 of them are RPF... which I am aware is not everyone's cup of tea. I tried my luck at writing straight sex, but it was only cunnilingus. Which is fine, but would I let a man do this irl to me? No. I would barely let a woman do this to me, but also, I'd do it to her in a heartbeat if I'm in love with her. So yeah, intimacy issues, hello. /sighs
So I don't know what to tell you other than: I have read somewhere that BL fans who are women that spent a lot of time with the genre effectively rewired their brain to not like het relationships anymore. Since I started watching BL (with the anime Gravitation back in 2008 or so), I have seen a lot of changes in me. I don't ship random men irl like people expect, but I do have my wires crossed. I don't enjoy men touching me, not even sensually. I can touch them sensually, but not sexually. I mean, if you read that one T rated fic I made about my ex friend ex crush, you'd probably understand where I'm coming from. Probably, idk.
But I think having to see a dick irl (and in close proximity), would make me really uncomfortable. I don't know how I'd react because I never was in this situation. And it doesn't help that men have the upper hand when it comes to physical power. They're more powerful than women so they can overpower me easily. That's not fair and in fact, I'm avoiding men 24/7 because of it. I don't like it because it's not like men are superior to women. They're not. So, what gives? What's with the male strength? =_=
Oh and at some point this year I totally summed this all up as: "women have perfect bodies, but men's bodies would be perfect if not for their dicks (and balls)." and I still stand by it till this day. Imagine my disappointment when people expected me to have sex with a man? Ew. But I do think men having sex with each other is a-okay and even expected in my mind. That is, I'd rather a man have sex with other men than with women. But then again, I don't make a fuss of other people's sex lives much. It is what it is.
I don't know where I'm going with this long ass message tbh. One time I touched my friend on the arm and noticed that men's arms are tougher than women's. I didn't like that. This interaction made me feel like an alien who discovers a new species for the first time. Well, I'm lucky to be bisexual and that sex with women is a no-brainer in my mind. Even if I still struggle with intimacy and never had sex before... I still consider this a win in my book. But some people and society at large would think different and to that I ask: why should I be uncomfortable all my life just because you think I need a man in my life for whatever reason? That doesn't sit well with me. But that's on heteronormativity and shit.
Hope this helps once again. I think I have described everything I had in mind... and if anything, I'm probably gonna write a fic (explicit this time) about one woman I met this year and me... as characters. So, no names, nada. "It'll be fun!" I say, as I fantasize about what I'd write and... not writing it (yet?). Help, this can't be the first time I'm writing lesbian sex. But the urge is too strong. I cannot be with said woman because she has some serious personality disorder type of issues, so this is the next best thing.
tl;dr yeah, I've seen full frontal BLs, no I'm not aroused by it, not really repulsed because it's two men. If it were a man and a woman, I'd be turned off. I don't watch het pink films on purpose, and not at all if I can help it. Also, I might have accidentally rewired my brain not to accept a male partner as a viable one and uhh lesbian sex rules in my mind (and hopefully I'll have it irl, too, at one point). Is that it? That's it, I'm done with this post.
Watch RevLove everyone! <3
If you're on your computer, you can highlight part of the message, and a "quote" icon will pop up. If you click it, it quotes only the small section you highlighted.Arclei:
OHHHHH you have unlocked this knowledge for me. I never use MDL on my phone and this is my first time posting in the forums here, so now I know this! Thanks!
I watched two Thai BLs and two Japanese BLs, and I definitely found I prefer the latter, even tho all were of the more interesting/plot-driven ones. Japanese BLs seem to give more emotional depth than Thai ones, so even if they're slow/romance-focused, there's more to it than just two pretty people dating. Thai BLs, like most Thai dramas, have left me unimpressed, even though the intimacy level is something I haven't seen from pretty much any other country.
I don't like JPBLs actually, they are the ones I drop the most. I have like, 2 JPBLs on my entire BL recc list and they're quite far down. But yeah, BLs are improving but still are flawed and Thailand has the highest input which makes it more obvious than other countries, about their over all rushed nonsense plots.
I agree your point about some women not enjoying het portrayals, that's a reason to add to the list.
ColourMePurple:
I didn't read all the comments so sorry if this is repetitive.
I got into BLs this year and I've noticed that they tend to have a lot more romance than straight romance dramas. Maybe because they have to be less cautious with the same gender and shooting is easier? So it's just giving me the romance that's missing in straight dramas.
Though I have noticed that straight dramas tend to be moving towards green flag relationships whereas BLs are exploring a lot of toxic relationships.
I'm just living vicariously through these stories because real life dating is not worth it. There is more toxicity than sweetness and pure love.
Understandable view point, but if you don't mind (and are comfortable) answering the main question, if you are a het female, does the idea of being a man physically repulse you? Because that was the key point, het women I saw were talking about not actually liking the idea of being with real men physically, not finding them attractive (and I just mean physically, not including all the other stuff about the toxic male narrative. It's about sexual attraction. If you're not comfortable answering you don't have to!
Hope this helps once again. I think I have described everything I had in mind...chirisu:
Thank you for sharing your detailed answer!!
If I may sum it up from my take away of some of what you described here, and I'm gonna state it as plainly as I can;
- it seems like the 'toxic male' narrative increasingly rising in the world has created some kind of aversion in many het/bi females towards men, specifically relating to their genitalia (probably because of how their genitalia is used for rape?). You used some strong negative words to describe how you feel about dicks, or am I understanding it wrong? Do you find the penis just aesthetically unattractive? But you menrioned tentacles and of course dildos would feature in lesbian porn quite often. So is it then not about insertion of anything phallic, but rather it's about men being attached to their dicks? lol
If it's that male genitalia is just unattractive to some het women, I think that quite different from het women liking men on the surface but disliking men being attached to their genatalia. One is an aestethic thing, while the latter is psychological thing that has bled into the physical. This is also an interesting angle to consider for female het/bi viewers. Perhaps it is attraction to men, sans their genatalia. BL implies penetration but BL also always shows gay sex from a flowery perspective which might make it more visually favoured and appealing to women who dislike the idea of a real penis for their own reasons.
Very interesting. Thank you again for sharing!
bwe0dic:Do you find the penis just aesthetically unattractive?
Not only that
So is it then not about insertion of anything phallic, but rather it's about men being attached to their dicks? lol
but also this
I don't like men as people either. Not only due to the toxic male narrative that seems prevalent now. I haven't liked men sexually all my life (and have started hating on them at a very early age too). First time I accidentally watched porn was on TV, back in middle school. I thought the act itself is repulsive (it was straight sex). I had no idea what that was (the dick) but pieced two and two together in the end. I had my first (and only) "boyfriend" in middle school and he would sexually harass me a lot too. Maybe this is why I didn't want anything to do with males afterwards? Like, I didn't want to be touched by him, it felt icky. Why must I be touched? If someone must be touched, surely it is him? (An imaginary man).
Yeah it's unattractive but also, men attached to their dicks are also quite unattractive themselves. If you also take this into account:
I mean men in everyday regular life that regular women can meet and interact with, not fictional or on screen actors playing fictional roles.
It's very simple. I don't find most men attractive. Not their faces, bodies, nothing. They do nothing for me. But I did have that crush on that male friend back in 2012-2016 and subsequently only had interest in actors. Because they're more attractive (some of them) but also, they're quite far away from my day to day life. Not bothering me, not ruining the image I have of them in my head (normally, unless they do something public that warrants my disgust).
So, 99.9% of the time I find men unappealing in every way, not only sexually. In the sexual case, it's 100% of the time... so far. It's also worth mentioning I did think of pegging a guy once or twice (but I'd obviously be bad at that). It's just, I don't want to be penetrated by a man. Women could be fine, probably (I don't know that yet). This is because it takes a lot of vulnerability to do that and I don't have the guts to ask a woman for sex yet. Some things are fine and I could do them, but others like involving strap-ons I don't know if I'd like it (unless I'm the one on top, idk).
Perhaps it is attraction to men, sans their genatalia. BL implies penetration but BL also always shows gay sex from a flowery perspective which might make it more visually favoured and appealing to women who dislike the idea of a real penis for their own reasons.
Exactly. I am attracted to men, but not the whole man. It's frustrating at times lol. Unrelated but one time, I got hit on by a guy (which very rarely happens tbh, I'm not that attractive to men), so I played along... because I liked the attention. But then at the same time, I was evaluating him and he lacked in personality lol. Like, he even showed me a photo of his single bed? For whatever reason, I don't know. I mean, I do know, but I was completely uninterested in that (he had a forgettable face too). The interaction actually felt like nothing. I don't know how else to describe it, just nothing. :/ I mean, at least it remained at only that, and didn't escalate. I am afraid of escalation with men. Groping or worse. So, I try to keep my distance from them, usually.
Thanks for creating this thread. It's definitely an interesting subject! I don't know how other bi/het women who are into BL are like, but I think a lot of them are still fully attracted to men and are able to have sex with them and stuff like that. It depends I suppose. On what? I don't know. Maybe it's also my bisexuality that makes things a bit complicated.
Thanks for creating this thread.
Your answers have been very clarifying in many aspects and perhaps specifically for women who've had bad experience with men in their youth or in adulthood, hell, even in marriage. So for people who want to distance themselves from the negative aspects of what they feel is the way the general male population amounts to, watching BL gives them that distance of the 'visual attraction' without having to have any physical interaction.
I am afraid of escalation with men.
Definitely part of the problem in the world now, is the narrative surrounding men (online more than anything) is very ugly and getting worse and also unfortunately (through the bravery that online provides for many people) revealing of just who's walking around out there and what women need to look out for and avoid now more than ever. It's terrible, we're living a crazy timeline tbh.
but I think a lot of them are still fully attracted to men and are able to have sex with them and stuff like that.
There are definitely those, but there have many other suggestions here of other types of viewers, yours included. Thanks again for sharing your views. I suppose in the end, while BL probably started (for most women) as a romantic extension of their sexual attraction to men, its grown and spread into many new avenues for many different types of women and people, so now the reasons people view it are not so black and white. Primarily, probs mostly for new gen females who like the idea of fictional men but don't want physical interaction with me, it's become a safe fantasy viewing space of sort.
I can't quote some replies to answer, I don't know why.
You're using the "Quote at the bottom of a reply. That quotes the entire reply but has limits on length.
Instead, highlight the specific bit of text you wish to cite. You should get a "Quote option next to it. That's the one you want.
This is how I'm able to separate your reply to me into two sections.
Your answer was interesting and over all seems to sum up to; you are attracted to men, you are not put off by being with men physically and you can watch BL for all the elements of entertainment, including enjoying the romance/physical aspects of two men visually?
Mostly. Thank you for paraphrasing your understanding and looking to verify it, that's good practice.
Shall we attribute 'not put off' to UK understatement? =D =D =D It may be in my past, but I enjoyed sex a lot and miss it. Sexual intimacy is one of the great pleasures in life.
In a televised romance my preference is for the moments of connection, which is often more about what actors do with their eyes, voice, softening their faces. Or a Japanese BL which sets it up so a secret touch of hands means everything.
Given the limits of what can be shown between actors, especially on television, less is very often more. For me at least, and some directors, though I guess I'm some sort of weird outlier in this amongst English-orientated viewers. Think sensuality - a light kiss on a shoulder, a finger down an arm, a subtle intake of breath to convey desire - rather than the wasted movement and panting often used to depict lust. So much more can be implied than shown.
I don't watch for kisses or NC scenes. If they're there, they're there. I'm not put off by them but I am usually neutral, sometimes bored, and waiting for it to get back to developing everything else. Or wondering how on earth they're getting each other THAT worked up that quickly given where their hands and mouths are. =D =D =D A shared look, a touch and a fade-out can work just as well in a fraction of the time and we can get back to exploring what their sexual intimacy means to the characters emotionally and how it changes their relationship. Suggest whatever physical intimacy is appropriate for those particular characters at that particular stage of their relationship, please, but I personally have no 'need' to see it. An implication that it's part of their lives is enough.
Like a friend smiling knowingly when asked about her weekend. I don't need details there either.
TL;DR your paraphrase understated my real life interest and overestimated my enjoyment in watching on screen simulations.
My preferences in all of this are essentially the same regardless of the actors' gender(s).
plots in a BL barely matter
You're watching the wrong ones then. Or are you defining 'plot' in a narrow way? Like if it involves the relationship, it's not 'plot' in your eyes?
Moonlight Chicken's many plotlines are about loss and healing, letting go and moving on, most of which happens in the context of interactions, and thus relationships.
typical BLs generally let the romance dominate everything, even nonsensically
Sometimes. Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean BLs tend to have very short runs time and can get a lot of flack, at least from western viewers, if they don't shoehorn in the expected relationship beats. Japan in particular accommodates this by conveying A LOT of story through a single line or a look, they can be excellent with quiet, subtle depths. When opinions are split in MDL reviews, it seems to be who caught on and who missed it.
Japan also produces a fair bit of pre-teen manga BL without much depth, but it's not hard to tell the difference if you're paying attention.
Thais can, and will, put fun into nearly anything, including grief and trauma narratives in comedy. There's a lot going on which western viewers tend to miss.
GMMTV is selling out to chase slots on Viki though and their writing has mostly tanked these last two years. "Thai" series made by non-Thai platforms like iQiYi can be poor, just jumping on the bandwagon.
Japan in particular accommodates this by conveying A LOT of story through a single line or a look, they can be excellent with quiet, subtle depths.Elisheva:
I like Japanese BLs and they were my favorite up until this year. I'm telling you, if China didn't have the ban on gay media, they'd be the best out of all MDL countries. That being said, I'm happy with what we've got so far.
Going out on a limb and saying BL media will only become even better as years go by. I'm definitely looking forward to it.
Shall we attribute 'not put off' to UK understatement? =D =D =D It may be in my past, but I enjoyed sex a lot and miss it. Sexual intimacy is one of the great pleasures in life.
I'm trying to keep my statements neutral! LOL There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex and sexual intimacy for sure, not to me, not irl or fictional XD So I hear you!
Think sensuality - a light kiss on a shoulder, a finger down an arm, a subtle intake of breath to convey desire - rather than the wasted movement and panting often used to depict lust. So much more can be implied than shown.
I've had plenty of conversations about this before, this is why Chinese BLs excel, their character relationships and world building through the smallest interactions is unmatched. As a hobbyist writer I often find the build up of intimacy in BLs very inorganic, hence why very few BLs actually get me invested. They take nuance and touch and meaningful dialogue and shared intensity of pairings through experiences in scenes/emotionality and even using the right music, most BLs don't manage this AT ALL. But that's a whole other topic.
It's true too, most NC scenes are empty for this reason. I have a few that really hit all the marks and in those cases, I find the sex scenes enjoyable. I can take it or leave it, but I will enjoy it if it's done right and I don't feel bad about that. I like what I like, if it's portrayed well, and checks all my boxes, smut or not, I will give it two thumbs up.
Moonlight Chicken's
I think taste of genre and preference of writing and actor visuals and so on all come into play, because for me Moonlight Chicken was okay, but I'll be honest, I've forgotten 85% of what happened in that show now, it was forgettable for me. For me I would say (not including censored BL TU and TS gems from China), Shine, Semantic Error, The Eighth Sense, Revenged Love, Together With, Century of Love and IFYLITA, these are some examples of BLs that excelled on all front, including organic relationship deveopnent, imo. These and others are all on BL recc list.
Thais can, and will, put fun into nearly anything, including grief and trauma narratives in comedy. There's a lot going on which western viewers tend to miss.
A lot of western people are very closed minded, they will blame the media from another country if they don't want to or cannot look deeper into the content. But once someone starts to understand more about the foreign culture media and learns more, they will enjoy much more.
Or are you defining 'plot' in a narrow way? Like if it involves the relationship, it's not 'plot' in your eyes?
LOL no. Most BLs focus on the romance so much they often make the plot feel like a joke, they don't know how to balance or properly merge the two in most cases.
PS: please understand that I know Revenged Love's origin plot was stupid because the source material was rubbish, but what they managed to do with the show was impressive and of course, Chinese directors and producers always develop the relationships very well. That's what I mean when I say Revenged Love is on my list for good BLs, the TV series excelled where the book was trash.
