nathsketch:
Just a little parentheses, but I found a Jinger on Reddit this morning. It's always the same. It never fails.
So I took the bait. How could I not? Got a bunch of nonsense as a reply (XL is cheating her with the bugs, it's a manipulation device, etc.), which is nothing new, but the cherry on top was "this is not mdl btw". Ahahahahahahaha of course it's one of the MDL's usual suspects.
If I had a yuan for each time I encountered the same recycled arguments, I could buy myself a real Xiang Liu.
I wonder what version of the book they're reading/analyzing. It must be The Jingers' Cut.
End of parentheses.
I'm confused! How is he cheating her with the Lovers Bugs? How is it a manipulation device? This is the first time I've seen these arguments. I know that they do their best to minimise/dismiss the Lovers Bugs - for obvious reasons - but these are new.
10 points to XY for her ability to convey so much with one object :-). As they say; a picture paints a thousand words.HeadInTheClouds:
-100 points for XY for not realizing that XL had already answered this -- at least in the drama. He accepted the Lovers Bug while they were both sitting in his giant clam shell.
I'm confused! How is he cheating her with the Lovers Bugs? How is it a manipulation device? This is the first time I've seen these arguments. I know that they do their best to minimise/dismiss the Lovers Bugs - for obvious reasons - but these are new.
As opposed to cheating XY with his wife and kid. Or stalking XY with his 9 tailed fox tracking abilities -- or his water scrying.
I've seen this nonsense before, but typically for Jingers, it doesn't make any sense.
Kokuto:
-100 points for XY for not realizing that XL had already answered this -- at least in the drama. He accepted the Lovers Bug while they were both sitting in his giant clam shell.
Yes, but answering is not the same as accepting it. XY made the crystal ball 4 years prior, so she was aware of her feelings way before sending it, but the fact that she also had it sent raised an invitation too. XL wasn't there when she woke up after their 37 years, XY went forward with the crystal ball.
About the jingers nonsense, LOL. I guess they believe XL was trying to control XY through the bugs or something? It's nonsense, as you said.
blabla100:
Yes, but answering is not the same as accepting it. XY made the crystal ball 4 years prior, so she was aware of her feelings way before sending it, but the fact that she also had it sent raised an invitation too. XL wasn't there when she woke up after their 37 years, XY went forward with the crystal ball.
About the jingers nonsense, LOL. I guess they believe XL was trying to control XY through the bugs or something? It's nonsense, as you said.
Let's remember WHO rejected the clamshell love "confession" first, in black and white words. XY was the first one who SAID, "I don't want a man like you." Waiting until the oh so 'suitable' Jing failed her utterly, made it clear XL wasn't her first choice, and then hedging her bets with the Dear John letter certainly would make any man have doubts about whatever she was trying to say with the crystal ball, much less a proud man like XL. He was a demon, not a doormat.
If XY was sincere she needed to say it openly, just like she said her rejection.
In the crystal ball, the mermaid is already sitting in the clamp shell. She'd already accepted - no chasing or singing required - and all she was waiting for was the merman to come and join her. The tableau in the crystal ball could be a 3 for the price of one communication piece:
1) A confession of her feelings - I want to be the mermaid in your clamp shell, will you come and join me?
2) An expression of how she perceived their relationship. She's willing and waiting for his response
3) A plead, a request, an appeal for him to give her an answer.
^^^ Exactly this. I wonder if the mermaid sitting in the clam shell can also be seen as XY acknowledging that the merman had already chased and built a home for her. In other words, acknowledging that she knew XL had feelings for her by accepting the voodoo bug, by accompanying her and patiently teaching her archery as FFB, by attentively taking care of her for 37 years under the sea, and by being there for her when she was feeling down. She wasn't oblivious to XL's feelings for her, although she might have questioned the depth of his feelings—especially since he'd taken every opportunity after 37 years to push her away. She also knew from his "the best ending for a general is to die on the battlefield" comment that he wasn't planning to choose her. I think the crystal ball was her last attempt at reversing that decision.
The crystal ball was the confession and plea. The letter was the ultimatum.
“In two months I am getting married. This is the last poison I will make for you. Please accept with a smile.”
-- Vol 2 Ch 14 (Chapter 31)
I read the double-speak as: "If you don't accept my confession, I will belong to someone else and will no longer be able to be in your life. Can you accept that?"
10 points to XY for her ability to convey so much with one object :-). As they say; a picture paints a thousand words.
Agreed. Some think that XY should have been more direct in her confession and plea. But the way I see it, XY is doing exactly what XL did for her. XL never openly confessed, nor did he try to force XY into anything; he subtly hinted at his intentions and allowed XY to choose for herself. Yes, it can be frustrating for us readers that the two weren't more open with their feelings towards each other, but I wouldn't be able to say with confidence that XL would have preferred XY to be more open. On the contrary, I think he probably appreciated that she put it all out there for him and let him choose.
but I wouldn't be able to say with confidence that XL would have preferred XY to be more open. On the contrary, I think he probably appreciated that she put it all out there for him and let him choose.solarlunareclipse:
All means everything. She clearly didn't put everything out there at any time, even when she saddled him with the lifetime commitment of the Lovers Bug, except when she plainly rejected him. XL already chose when he took the Lovers Bug. It's XY who is dithering around, trying to keep her three men on a string until one panned out.
The dude ran up to Haolin with his hair on fire to get a direct answer from XY when she tried to ghost him and weasel out their deal with her identity change to Princess of Haolin.
He also clearly wanted a direct answer after he got the crystal ball and Dear John letter, when he point blank asked her "Who did you want to spend your life with?"
From the very beginning, when he questioned WXL's identity, XL wanted a clear answer from XY and the only time he got one was when she rejected him.
Some think that XY should have been more direct in her confession and plea. But the way I see it, XY is doing exactly what XL did for her. XL never openly confessed, nor did he try to force XY into anything; he subtly hinted at his intentions and allowed XY to choose for herself.
Arguably, XL thought accepting the Lovers Bug was his confession. It certainly was validation for his, for their feelings. The problem was he knew WXL was lying about what she knew about the Lovers Bugs, and he assumed she knew more than she did about it, including what the name of the Bug was.
@kokuto
I already knew your take on these events are very different than the way I see them, but I am trying to see them from your pov too and honestly if that's what TH had in mind, than that makes XL even more pathetic than jing. Would he be that pathetic though? I don't think so, honestly.
How does that make XL pathetic at all, much less worse than Jing? He knows they love each other, but he isn't going to force or manipulate her to do what he wants, like Jing. Likewise, he isn't going be a doormat and toss his life and his beliefs to the wind, hoping she'll look at him with favor, like Jing. She plainly said she didn't want him. If she's allegedly changed her mind, why wouldn't he look for the same clarity from her? If they chose to actually spend their lives together, he, and they, need a clear commitment and willingness to do what it takes on both sides to make it work.
The dude ran up to Haolin with his hair on fire to get a direct answer from XY when she tried to ghost him and weasel out their deal with her identity change to Princess of Haolin.
He also clearly wanted a direct answer after he got the crystal ball and Dear John letter, when he point blank asked her "Who did you want to spend your life with?"
From the very beginning, when he questioned WXL's identity, XL wanted a clear answer from XY and the only time he got one was when she rejected him.
I personally don't even believe XL ever tried to pursue XY, as FFB told her once, she shouldn't care what's deep in his heart, because they are just temporarily companions, seeking a bit of happiness togheter. I don't understand what makes you believe that he wanted more out of their relationship. Do you see him pursuing XY and make her give up everything, just so he can spend a few days each month with her?
My sentiments lie with Kokuto, in that XL definitely tried to pursue XY. If he didn't, he wouldn't have the need to:
- Take on the Lover's Bugs.
- Head to Haoling, not once but twice, to see her.
- Save her life at all.
I have always believed XL wanted, even if for a short time, some kind of relationship. When XY was WXL, XL had more time and would have been able to woo her. As XY, XL wooed her for a short time as FFB, knowing that they couldn't be together, and that temporarily accompanying each other was fulfilling for him. Knowing that his time is limited, teaching her archery and using the excuse of playing together as payment are not technically separate from his desire to romance her.
I have always argued that all XL ever wanted from XY was her honesty. And since she failed time after time to be truthful with him, XL had no reason to push their relationship further. Like XY, who compromised her desires for her fears, XL compromised his desires for his loyalty. He took to heart two things XY said to him and acted upon it:
- Temporary companionship is okay and worthwhile.
- He wasn't suited for her dreams.
Being temporary companions also didn't mean that it lacked romance and the desire to be with each other, nor did a lack of sexual intimacy mean that their relationship was not romantic. What need is there for YaoLiu if XL had no desire to be with XY?
XL's reason for not coming to her during those seven days coincides with CX ascending the throne, hindering their time together and accelerating the end of their companionship. I interpreted this scene within the context of the political environment rather than solely focusing on the assumption that he didn't desire to be with her.
For me, during this time, XY really missed her chance. It reached a point where it wasn't XL who had to give up everything to be with her; it was her who had to give up everything to be with him, and she couldn't. She had almost 100 years to have a relationship with him, and she threw it away the moment she told him he wasn't suited for her dreams.
As with any character-driven story, since XY was unable to make a decision to be with XL, we will never know what XL would have done. Would he have fought harder to stay alive? Would he have thought of a way for them to be together? The demon has nine heads, as conflicted as he is, I'm sure if TH had wanted to write it this way, there would have been a way to write it without compromising XL's integrity.
Aheng said to XY that Chiyou was so arrogant and he never rode into battle thinking he would die. And I honestly believe this is true of XL to some extent, and even XY believed this too. It wasn't until he saved XY the second time that you truly saw his imminent demise.
Regardless of how the story is written, it was always going to be a tragedy.
The dude ran up to Haolin with his hair on fire to get a direct answer from XY when she tried to ghost him and weasel out their deal with her identity change to Princess of Haolin.
I sympathize with your perspective, but don't agree that XY changed her identity in order to avoid fulfilling her deal with XL. That said, XY certainly wasn't perfect and made a lot of mistakes. She even admitted this herself. I do sympathize with and applaud XL for handling the situation as gracefully as he could.
if that's what TH had in mind, than that makes XL even more pathetic than jing.
Whoa, "more pathetic than jing"....those are some strong words. Can't say that I disagree though ;)
Regardless of how the story is written, it was always going to be a tragedy.plor20:
Lol, can we all agree to blame Tong Hua for this whole thing?
I actually see this work as a dark romantic comedy that morphs into a tragedy replete with the most depressing ending ever non-tragedy where everyone gets what they most want.
You make him look as if love was all that he cared about, which IMO is not accurate.
I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion, since I specifically said XL had enough back bone and pride not to be XY's leftovers choice or make the first step, no matter how much he loved her, so clearly love wasn't all he cared about. If all he cared about was love, he'd be crying and begging with empty promises and waiting on XY hand and foot and abandoning every thing in his life like Jing's pathetic a$$. How is wanting XY to declare her commitment to their love pathetic? How is not settling for being XY's doormat pathetic?
Jing was the only one out of them 4 who's only purpose in life was love/XY.
Jing SAID that but he certainly let numerous other people come before XY -- until one by one it was taken from him.
The way I see it XL's loyalty to his soldiers equals CX's desire for power and XY's wish to find a forever companion.
Equals how? They are all different things with different reasons behind them.
I personally don't even believe XL ever tried to pursue XY, as FFB told her once, she shouldn't care what's deep in his heart, because they are just temporarily companions, seeking a bit of happiness togheter. I don't understand what makes you believe that he wanted more out of their relationship.
Because it was right there in black and white in the character description for the casting call. Because there's no reason to accept the LOVERS Bug if XL didn't want a relationship with her. Because he wouldn't have been crushed by her rejection on the beach and have the Lovers Bug try to turn into Heartbreak Bugs, if he hadn't wanted to have a relationship with her.
FFB also told XY not to forget him, and told XY she should leave everything and come away with him, so that proves he was pursuing XY, doesn't it? And when he encountered WXL as a woman, he asked when they were going HOME, i.e. the place they shared a relationship that he wanted to continue, or why bother asking for her to return?
I honestly do not understand how anyone can watch XY and XL look at each in the drama and not understand they are in love and are longing for more. It's right there in the title.
Do you see him pursuing XY and make her give up everything, just so he can spend a few days each month with her? As FFB he sometimes dissapeared for months at a time, he was too busy being a general to tie XY up to him, he had other priorities in life than love and that's a fact.
Firstly, FFB spent months at a time with XY when they were playing in the Central Plains. Secondly, why do you think XL would lead a separate life from XY? He'd taken her to his camp and offered to do the same other times. He also bought the house in Q Town next to her clinic which he took her to after the marriage robbery. Thirdly, yes he had commitments to his resistance army, but that doesn't mean he couldn't do other things and have other commitments also, cause he most certainly did that when he went and played as FFB with XY and spent 37 years nursing her back to life. He had nine lives. It isn't like he couldn't have spared a life or 7 for XY, had they committed to each other, and still have been the last man standing with his resistance army. Millions upon millions of soldiers survive battlefields across ages.
Again, to think the army wasn't his main interest is like saying the throne wasn't CX's main purpose, which I personally don't believe is true.
CX's main purpose wasn't the throne or power for it's own sake. It was the misguided idea of having the power to protect himself and those he loved, i.e. XY. XL had committed to help the resistance army to the bitter end, but he proved repeatedly that it wasn't his only interest, because he repeatedly let CX escape assassination, because he loved XY, even if she rejected a life together. He honored both as best as he could.
You say XY wasn't clear enough with the crystal ball, I disagree. IMO XY was very straightforward with it and XL understood her message very well, that's why the novel ends with him sending it back to her.
I don't understand this. Are you saying he understood she was confessing to him, but he didn't 'accept' it because according to you, he never pursued a love relationship with her, but he kept this "confession" for decades afterwards, just so he could secretly and unknown to her return her 'confession' -- and that proves he never wanted a love relationship with her?
I didn't say that XL didn't understand the crystal ball. I said given the situation and how she had treated him, he was going to need more than that mess she sent him. He was going to need an outright commitment.
And I've said this repeatedly. Xiang Liu DID answer that XY's half a$$ed plea, even if it wasn't in the manner she expected. He showed up and rescued her from the marriage and gave her a chance to commitment to him. Instead she pitched a hissy fit when he showed up and when he gave her yet another chance to answer his direct question about what the heck she wanted, she refused to answer, and refused again to commit to him.
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