Deconstructing the character Tushan Zhen (涂山瑱)AkuMau:
The name "Zhen (瑱)" definitely seems to carry some deeper meaning…
▽– Did Grandma know about Zhen’s background?
• This is just like whether Grandma knew it was Hou who harmed Jing… When she chose the name, she didn’t avoid the father’s name taboo at all. Jing and Zhen ended up being named like “brothers.” Think about that? (For reference only)
Dear @AkuMau
I haven't return to this thread for some time, passed by today and your posts captured my attention. There are many interesting points that make me think of the drama and the book again.
Talking about the topic of Zhen's meaning:
I have never looked up the character Zhen 瑱 and I don't recall who gave the baby name. It seems that in the drama the grandmother named Yiying's baby. Character 瑱 with pinyin of "zhen" means jade jewelry on a crown which hangs over the ears. It definitely links to Jing's name which also has jade element in his name.
The interesting part is the same character with pinyin of "tiàn" means jade ear plugs and there is an idiom "以规为瑱 " [yǐ ɡuī wéi tiàn] which means "pay no attention to another's advice" or "ignore the rules". It implies Jing's grandma's intention and action. She knew her action to trap Jing is beyond the rule. She probably knew or sensed Yiying and Hou's relationship. In any case, the baby was still direct descendant of her husband and entitled the clan leader in future. She empathized Hou and this can be considered as compensation for his mistreatment by Jing's mother and his disqualification as clan leader by the clan seniors if the baby was Hou's son.
Hi, I’m new here and really regret not finding this thread sooner. Today I finished reading all the pages, and I truly enjoyed it. I’d like to share a link with you — it’s an analysis of Yao Liu based on the drama adaptation. You might find some similarities between the novel analysis discussed in this thread and what’s shown in the drama. There are also a few parts that I personally find a bit too dark, but of course, that’s up to individual interpretation. Enjoy it if you have some free time!
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/699826956?utm_psn=1792613331888119810
Welcome to the board, AkuMau. It's impressive that you read through all 750+ pages of this thread. Thank you for contributing to the discussion. I have not had the chance to read through them, yet.
I have never looked up the character Zhen 瑱 and I don't recall who gave the baby name. It seems that in the drama the grandmother named Yiying's baby. Character 瑱 with pinyin of "zhen" means jade jewelry on a crown which hangs over the ears. It definitely links to Jing's name which also has jade element in his name.H19279:
The interesting part is the same character with pinyin of "tiàn" means jade ear plugs and there is an idiom "以规为瑱 " [yǐ ɡuī wéi tiàn] which means "pay no attention to another's advice" or "ignore the rules". It implies Jing's grandma's intention and action. She knew her action to trap Jing is beyond the rule. She probably knew or sensed Yiying and Hou's relationship. In any case, the baby was still direct descendant of her husband and entitled the clan leader in future. She empathized Hou and this can be considered as compensation for his mistreatment by Jing's mother and his disqualification as clan leader by the clan seniors if the baby was Hou's son.
Now you have me a little curious about the name and the naming conventions in the novel. The novel mentions the Tushan Grandmother gave Zhen his name. Less than a month later, she passes away peacefully holding Jing and Hou in each hand. But I’m not so sure she had much empathy for anyone in particular. She only seemed to truly care about the family legacy and seemingly turned a blind eye to everything else.
When I first saw Zhen’s name, I initially wondered why he had the same name as the Tushan doctor, Hu Zhen, until I saw the Chinese characters were different. Then I saw the link to Jing’s name (radiant jade) with the jade element rather than Hou (bamboo element). On the one hand, naming him Zhen 瑱 (zhèn) outwardly cements his status with the thematic link to Jing, to obvious benefit. Another meaning in classical usage, 瑱 (tiàn) as "jade earplugs," could serve as a compensatory name to Jing's “radiance,” which the Grandmother may find too bright (hard to control) for comfort. So Zhen’s 瑱 is intentionally more muted and has the desired utilitarian aspects for the family. I could see Tong Hua choosing a name for multiple meanings, and “ignore the rules” perfectly suits the Grandmother’s style. She certainly knew she was trapping Jing.
I wonder how Xiang Liu, born alone from an egg, got his name …
Snowcup:
If you’re just starting to review it, like I am, I might suggest viewing it more like a picture book – the photos are pretty good. So far, my favorite is the adorable snowman family in front of Bao Zhu’s house – those rascally grandkids were so precocious, both in the novel and drama.
The text, however, is another story on a different plane, set to crash. Of course, there’s some real content – more like old news – sprinkled in among the horse feathers to add credence. Brings to mind the recent meme for this:
“I ain’t reading all that. I’m happy for you tho. Or sorry that happened.”
I can't read the text anyway since I don't know Mandarin :-)
It's interesting to see the amount of analysis that people go into. I guess, they really love the XL/XY pairing and want to leave no stone unturned to uncover TH's hidden thread.
Came across a parallel to Xiao Yao and Xiang Liu inside the seashell.
Sweet. Is it real or created with AI? It's scary to think how good AI is that it's getting harder to tell the difference.
When I first saw Zhen’s name, I initially wondered why he had the same name as the Tushan doctor, Hu Zhen, until I saw the Chinese characters were different. Then I saw the link to Jing’s name (radiant jade) with the jade element rather than Hou (bamboo element). On the one hand, naming him Zhen 瑱 (zhèn) outwardly cements his status with the thematic link to Jing, to obvious benefit. Another meaning in classical usage, 瑱 (tiàn) as "jade earplugs," could serve as a compensatory name to Jing's “radiance,” which the Grandmother may find too bright (hard to control) for comfort. So Zhen’s 瑱 is intentionally more muted and has the desired utilitarian aspects for the family. I could see Tong Hua choosing a name for multiple meanings, and “ignore the rules” perfectly suits the Grandmother’s style. She certainly knew she was trapping Jing.
Super interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Much earlier on, we discussed TH taking inspiration from 'The Dream of the Red Chamber' and its writing method. We discussed the names of the two families (in DotRC) and how they were part of the theme that the novel was highlighting. I think TH was very deliberate with what she wrote and what she didn't write, and paid attention to very fine details. There was a breakdown of the names and the changes to the names between the 2 editions that liddi did. And solarlunaescalipse also did an analysis of the names as well.
On the subject of the bamboo and jade element. There were references to both of these in the novel that we discussed. I think there was disagreement at some point about whether the text was talking about bamboo, it was about Jing or CX.
I wonder how Xiang Liu, born alone from an egg, got his name …
Did he name himself or did his adopted father name him?
And what would be the breakdown of his name and its meaning?
I can't read the text anyway since I don't know Mandarin :-)HeadInTheClouds:
Me either without some help. There are phone apps for photo text, if you’re inclined.
Sweet. Is it real or created with AI? It's scary to think how good AI is that it's getting harder to tell the difference.
Oh, you might be right. It does seem too good to be true. Awww, it’s so lovely!
Super interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Much earlier on, we discussed TH taking inspiration from 'The Dream of the Red Chamber' and its writing method. We discussed the names of the two families (in DotRC) and how they were part of the theme that the novel was highlighting. I think TH was very deliberate with what she wrote and what she didn't write, and paid attention to very fine details. There was a breakdown of the names and the changes to the names between the 2 editions that liddi did. And solarlunaescalipse also did an analysis of the names as well.
On the subject of the bamboo and jade element. There were references to both of these in the novel that we discussed. I think there was disagreement at some point about whether the text was talking about bamboo, it was about Jing or CX.
Thanks for the references and context – I’d probably need to review the discussions to get a better understanding of their points, though I do recall someone linking the green bamboo color to Jing.
What intrigues me most about Zhen’s naming is its narrative function. As @H19279 noted, 瑱’s dual meaning (zhèn/tiàn) and the “ignore the rules” idiom seem to reveal the Grandmother’s unspoken motives. For instance:
- Does choosing Zhen’s name signal her feelings about Jing or empathy for Hou?
- Does the novel/drama ever show her genuinely favoring Hou or does she play the brothers against each other?
- What about the parents? If she knew, was her primary goal to compensate Hou or to erase the scandal for the clan?
Most character names reflect on TH’s intentions, but Zhen’s name is unique because it’s chosen by the Grandmother herself. This gives us a window into her character. Was she ruthless, conflicted or just pragmatic?
Has it really been one year since Season 2 ended? How time flies. To commemorate one year since Xiang Liu's passing. Tencent released a new, nice and bloody picture. Happy anniversary to all my fellow XL lovers here.
Yes! And this week, in two short days, will be the anniversary of the debut of Season 1! I think I'm going to start a rewatch -- with notebook in hand. lol
But I’m not so sure she had much empathy for anyone in particular. She only seemed to truly care about the family legacy and seemingly turned a blind eye to everything else.Snowcup:
his gives us a window into her character. Was she ruthless, conflicted or just pragmatic?
All three.
If she doesn't have empathy for Hou, she could have simply left him alive (due to his Tu Shan's blood) without providing him with any of her attention. But Hou's love for her showed that she did provide him with love and care, no matter how little. However, it seems she never considered raising him and Jing to be equal with equal rights to the Clan's top position and/or fought for his equal rights against the Clan's old foggies. So her love is conditional and has limitations.
I see Jing's grandmother as a woman who prioritised the interests and survival of the Tu Shan clan above all else, and this is the primary principle that guided her decisions. While she loves and has empathy for her grandchildren, they are secondary to the family legacy, and she will ruthlessly do what she thinks is needed to ensure the Clan's interests.
In Once Promised, she refused to help the Flame Emperor as she was determined to keep the Tu Shan clan neutral/out of any political conflicts. This was in spite of the previous help that he extended to her and the family. Such behaviour would have gone against the idea of "righteousness" - a major social faux pas, so to speak. This showed that for her, nothing is as important as the Clan's survival and legacy and that she is willing to "ignore the rules" to achieve this end. This fits with what H19279 and you pointed out in her naming of Zhen.
Now, compare this to when Jing "goes against the rules" of staying out of politics by providing support to Cang Xuan. I don't believe for a moment that his primary goal was to help CX because he thinks CX will be an awesome emperor. That was secondary to achieving his primary objective - Xiao Yao.. Like grandmother, like grandson! Their goals just didn't align, and she was just much stronger-willed than he was, so he could only do things covertly. So whenever someone claimed that Jing didn't go against his grandmother because he was "filial" - hahahah.
Do you see the similarities between her and Jing when it comes to the matter of Hou, as well?
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