I havent watched the previous two seasons but I really enjoyed watching this one. I have an opinion about each participant and about how they were portrayed/edited:
- Gwan Hee: I did not understand why he was charming to any of the girls. He seemed quite average at first. The show kept focusing only on him, and it actually became annoying because there are other people I want to see. And who can deny how annoying he was throughout the whole show? I understand he is coming here to talk to different girls and go through experiences with them, but what is really annoying about him is that he seemed to not think about his own feelings at all. It is like he didn't allow himself to deeply feel anything for any of the girls, and kept it all at a shallow level, only asking the girls to tell him their feelings and reach out to him and constantly!!! reassure him. Why was it so hard for him to stop for a moment and see how he truly feels? He was able to do it at the end, so I guess he just wanted to have fun and enjoy receiving rather than bother with giving.
- Min Kyu: He grew on me in how mature and true to his feelings he was. Very much the opposite of Gwan Hee, man made his decision from the beginning, and he allowed nothing to interfere or change it. I can't believe he was consoling the other girls when they randomly chose him to go to Paradise with them; he felt like a very warm, considerate, and kind friend. -- I can't hide my feelings, but Gyu Ri does not deserve him.
- Ha Bin: What the hell did this man do that made the editing team almost erase him from the whole show? how can they not show us what he is thinking or doing? He is not a support character just throwing comments to Gwan Hee and whomever. I was frustrated, and I wanted to see more of him. I am certain he is not a terrible person and he deserved a better chance. I want justice for Ha Bin.
- Won Ik: He is a good person, and I think the editing tried to establish that also, but I actually very much understand why Si Eun did not feel anything towards him. He does not carry a conversation, and all the time spent with him felt very awkward. Whether he seemed relaxed or nervous, he was not saying much. He said he had many conversations, honestly, as far as we saw, there was no content and nothing memorable to those conversations. He does not touch your heart, does not show any deep feelings. It is tiring trying to keep the date going.
- Min Woo: Boy is as cute and yet mature as everyone felt at the end. I felt bad for him for the first day, for how he didn't choose Gyu Ri when she did and that seemed to haunt him for days. He is a sincere boy, and he was very cute and fitting for Si Eun. I hope they grow closer and stronger together, they suit each other very well.
- Jin Seok: My man was very manly and endearing. He seems like a typical Daegu person, very manly, loyal, and caring. I understand his choices and feelings throughout the whole show, and I really enjoyed seeing him. He was very funny with all the random comments. At the end, I wished that he had tried to get closer with Min Young, tried to put the teasing aside and really enjoy being together and getting to know each other in this setting. But well, they left together so I hope he takes her more seriously now.
Hye Seon: absolutely adorable and wonderful. I love this girl so much. From the beginning, her smiley and cheery impression was great, on the first Paradise date she seemed very cool and mature, and yet so lovely and lovable. The way she gave Gwan Hee all the space he needed to go out and talk to whoever he wants was so admirable. The way she trusted they will spend the last date together was very cute. She is beautiful and superior inside out. I hated seeing Gwan Hee not appreciate her, and demanding more and more, or blaming her for picking Won Ik. I feel like I would have been making the same choices she made, I really relate to her so much. She is a genuine and real person, and she is truly someone that you cannot forget or let go of. I am glad she made Gwan Hee cry at the end, it was not embarrassing but I am happy if he felt embarrassed. I also did feel like he will pick her at the final choice because the way he cried meant he finally realized his feelings. He couldn't bear to see how hurt she was at the fire gathering. He cried with her and even more after because his heart was really moved and he could no longer dwell or deny it. When he learned that Min Ji cried, and when she cried in front of him, he felt bad at first, and then only seemed worried about her and surprised. It was more of an outside feeling and an automatic reaction. But yeah, I think he also knew how to manipulate the show and the editing team (or they are in agreement) to never say his real final choice until the last word. His comment to Min Ji at the end seemed very shallow and annoying, I dont know if she liked it but it bothered me. If he had actually went with Min Ji at the end I would have slapped him. So, I am glad that Hye Seon got the man at the end, and she smiled so widely it was so endearing to see. I really really hope she remains happy forever. I hope he treats her well, and he better. I wish all the best for my girl Hye Seon.
- Gyu Ri: This girl. Damn she is infuriating from beginning to end. Her fake smile is so uncomfortable and disturbing, especially at the game they played. Exactly what you would see a psycho do in a drama. She also turned into a gang member when she was interrogating Min Woo, like hello? who the hell do you think you are? so full of herself and disrespectful. She thinks she is above all the other girls, but also above Min Woo or any man even. She doesn't realize how off putting her haughty attitude is, and also doesn't realize that her looks arent the best in the world and won't really overpower her behavior. Again, I don't think she deserves Min Kyu, he is too good for her. She better treat him well I swear. I hope he also knows how to put her in her place.
- Min Young: I think I understand that she started off thinking she also came here to talk to and appeal to different men, and she had the right to try out more than one before she settles. Jin Seok literally spent the first day with her and he seemed blindly set, while she appreciated it, it was a little overbearing. But. But. I think her choice of giving 4 candies was stupid, and even stupider that she said it out loud and laughed about it. Everyone was shocked. She always laughs in awkward times, and times that don't require any laughter. If I was her, I couldve just naturally spoke to the other men and seen how it is between us rather than publicly declaring it. I think she is a sweet and loving girl, and also, I felt that she needed some more reassurance and attention. She wanted to feel liked. She doesn't have a baseless confidence the way Gyu Ri does, so she wants more people to appreciate her. I am glad she made up her mind and focused on the one that likes her. I am glad she was persistent till the very end, but again, I wish she talked more. Like, I wish she had some content to their conversation other than do you like me? will you choose me? stop teasing me. She really couldn't express herself well, and didn't try to touch the man in different ways other than the initial charm.
- Si Eun: At the beginning, it was funny how she and Ha Jeong knew each other, and that made me think differently of her. But as the program developed, she turned out to be a very cute and sincere girl. I love her honesty and straightforwardness. She is such a good person. I kept thinking even though she is shy, she is really true to her feelings and very level-headed. I hope she and Min Woo have a wonderful relationship. I really wish the best for them. I think they made the cutest couple.
- Ha Jeong: The way she side stares at someone she is speaking to is so unusual and funny. I am not sure if it's charming, but that gaze is definitely staying in my mind. Her comments and anger were also funny and realistic. I honestly found her to be very genuine, and at times very mature. I am sad that she got so hooked on Gwan Hee and literally tried to hang on for so long even though he seemed not interested. Honestly, he was charming when he was with her in the car and the first helicopter, and I can understand why her heart fluttered, but that was literally the peak for them. I hated the way he treated her when they went to Paradise. He was awful and disrespectful, and nothing he said and did made sense. I really don't understand why she didn't see through it all, and just kept trying. Honestly, she had the opposite effect on him, the more she tried to get him the more he withdrew. He is freaking weird and Ha Jeong deserves better. She will find her match I am sure. She is not an easy one, very smart and observing, but she really has her charms and I am sure men like her.
- Min Ji: Simply said, she is a brat. I don't dislike her, but I also like nothing about her. A 26 years old saying all these things is so embarrassing. She is cute indeed, but the more she acts cute, the less cute she becomes. And also, through all the conversations she had with Gwan Hee, sorry, but she seems empty in the head. All she thinks about is herself and who she likes. Which is great for a moment, but she cannot hold a serious conversation, she gets taken aback and doesn't know how to respond. Also, she simply does not want to have any serious conversation, as if they are meant to spend their whole time acting cute and joking around. At first, I saw why the program chose her to appear in the middle, I guess she stirred things up, but soon enough I thought any other girl could've done that too. At the end, it felt like the program's mission failed, she did not live up to their expectations and she didn't know how to behave. I hope she becomes more mature and reflects on herself, also thinks more realistically of herself.
I still feel utter hate for Jin Mu... his death mustn't have been equal to those of the unanimous assembly idiots... he is pure evil, i really really wanted to see him suffer. Jang Uk already killed the rest of the assembly, him torturing or directing all the fires towards Jin Mu wouldnt have made him look any different. I cant settle with this ending for Jin Mu... 😤😤😤
Of course, the rest of everything in the ending was beautiful and happy. This drama is really one of the bests ive ever watched, and this couple will remain in my heart.
He accidentally stabbed her hand when they played the knife game and her hand got all bloody. Did you skip the…
Yeah that is why I am saying its dramatic or exaggerated, they did not distribute the marks the way it would realistically look following the way she had moved her hand on him
He accidentally stabbed her hand when they played the knife game and her hand got all bloody. Did you skip the…
From the hand wound, i didnt think it would imprint on his body like that. I watched obviously 😂 not missing that scene! Even if she had her hands all over him, they made the stains on him just too dramatic, i didnt think it was directly from her, but it makes sense now😌
I have something I am still curious about. What was the reason behind him having her blood stains on his body, in episode one when they sprayed him and turned off the lights? How did he have so much blood on him? it was mentioned again by persecution as an evidence, but how would it be disapproved?
It's not your typical cult drama, it's crazy and twisted. After the main twist (after ep 3) actions are unexpectable, and it makes you keep watching. There is still much to come in season 2. It's obvious they dont want to give answers now because they are saving them for later, not because they are forgetting or mis-plotting. Some details may be annoying and stupid, but the overall direction is quite interesting.
I was so into the drama, and loved the all the characters and was so happily watching through the episodes because…
They had to make a final twist with him not believing her about the dog being deliberately hurt, rush everything with the other case and shitty ex in the last two episodes, and last make her run away for with an irrational reason... he got hurt for her, not because of her, he had the full intention to fight and save her.... and they even made up in the hospital, she still thinks she should now stay away from him? and the cherry on top is they very very very awkwardly make out with the man caught and bent over between them .... it ruined all the good parts for me.
I was so into the drama, and loved the all the characters and was so happily watching through the episodes because it was all perfect and all the comedy, craziness and vibes were on point... but (spoiler follows)
Love Yeo Jin Goo. He is doing a fantastic job in his role, even though his character is quite irritating at times.…
Yeahh I understand that he keeps getting it wrong, but he is doing his best with the information he can get and with what he can see and hear. It is very right of him to be suspicious of everyone because eventually, it isnt going to be that simple who the killer of all the victims is. I hope he guides them through the rest of the case.
Agreed, I mean why bashing the actor? He didn't write his character and play it too and we still in ep 8. Imo…
Yes I have loved Yeo Jin Goo so much because of his role in the Crowned Clown. I love that drama and him so much, so I just cant but see him here in this role also.
Thats true, much of the evidence leads to DS so he cant ignore it, and honestly, the way DK behaves with him is surely going to make him even more suspicious. I mean, he knew all that Kang Jin Mook did to Min Jung, but he decided to take things into his own hands, and just hid the truth from everyone until it became dangerous for Jae Yi. I didnt understand what his ultimate aim is if he had already found out who killed/kidnapped Min Jung, He couldve literally saved her from death if he had spoken as soon as he figured it out. He is regretful but seriously, its not enough. There is still more we don't know.
As you said, I mean there is no fault it JW taking the credit. it's better for both sides. the only down side is that DS wont have his name cleared in public, but he doesnt care anyways. Also, from the preview of next episode, there is still such a huge mess with the chief and other people. it's too early to clear anyone's name anyways. Even JW might be guilty of something....
But, uhm, is he really second ML? I mean, I think they are equal in their positions. Why should he even be considered second to DS? if it wasnt for Jin Goo, i probably wouldnt have even come across the drama. You think hes too serious? hahaha I like it actually, I prefer that over DS's creepiness :P
Agreed, I mean why bashing the actor? He didn't write his character and play it too and we still in ep 8. Imo…
No well, I mostly saw talk about Joo Won not Jin Goo, it's just me thats worried about him. People probably love him outside his role. But you're right, both characters are complicated and layered, and we still don't know so much about them. In fact, we know very little only. I also bet his father (and maybe mother) is involved in some shit, which is why he is living his every day worrying about this case. Not even Dong Shik is this invested, or at least he doesn't show it. But this poor boy is dying to get to the bottom of it. Honestly though, how the hell is Dong Shik able to keep calm around people with everything happening, and with everything that he is himself doing... only crazy people can be like this. Everything is really very interesting and thought provoking with these two.
Ahh all the people thinking Joo Won is annoying is making me sad, I do agree that his character and role arent that great, but I also believe there is so much hidden behind his obsession. He is smart and capable, so he isnt just trying to take out his frustration on Dong Shik. Every time I see him on screen saying something questionable I internally scream Yeo Jin Goo yaaaa... because Yeo Jin Goo is a sweatheart so please don't bash his character too much, at least wait till the end if he doesnt redeem himself.
it makes NO SENSE to me that he would not look for his child ??? like maybe search the building or everywhere…
They want to tell us he believed a completely unbelievable lie like "i sent her far away"?! How could he not even think about looking for their child?? also, that hole that the child fell in isnt always there, when we look at the ground, it doesnt appear in other scenes at all even though it was so obvious when she decided to drop the baby. I mean, its complete nonsense they want to convince us with....
I totally agree with you. It's frustrating without any justifications now. Why is she doing this to the person…
Ahh you sound positive about it, and thats nice. I couldnt but be sad at this ending because it wasn’t realistic or acceptable at all. Why is Zi O leading the group now? Is that his purpose in life from now on? After all he has been through in the first episodes and all the humanity he showed, everything was destroyed and now he hates humans and wants to head a new generation of lucas/nonhumans.... I mean, it is a possibility, but I guess it just wasn’t what I hoped for. Gu Reum did get it right in the end, but seriously, those few sentences she said, she couldve said them two episodes earlier and everything would’ve been much better because Zi O wouldnt have been this deep into this path. I really liked her as a character, and I dont see a reason for her death. But yes maybe as you say, she might be not exactly dead. They only showed the scientist tapping Zi O shoulder sadly, so it couldve been explained as sorry couldnt do anything about it or sorry thats all we can do. Basically she might have turned into some non-living creature or shes in coma or something. But you know whats really unbelievable? Zi O didnt go look for his child. Its only part of the plot for next season, because if it was still within the season, he wouldve 1000% found her one way or another. But no they had to leave her to an adoptive family so he can find her later when her powers are more obvious. And as you said when there is a whole army of lucas that he might fight against.
I dont really hope for a second season because it will bring so much more sadness for many reasons. :(
I just realized something, the only consistency we had throughout the show is the crazy scientist!! .... and that is because the character is based on a single idea "develop the (shitty) humans with genetics and science". That's all the man had, but if I don't want to be mean then a tiny branching idea of the main one would be "I am the father of the first successful experiment".
I totally agree with you. It's frustrating without any justifications now. Why is she doing this to the person…
You are right about everything here. Sorry I'm only replying now that I have watched the last episode. After all we have been through with them, our emotions, analysis, hopes and predictions, I just feel like they really ruined it. We all saw the potential that is why we thought and discussed so much, but in the end it only left us with a sigh. My heart ached so much over Zi O in the beginning, but now that I see him like this, I can only think "what the hell...?" .... well, that basically goes for everything that we saw in the end :/
- Gwan Hee: I did not understand why he was charming to any of the girls. He seemed quite average at first. The show kept focusing only on him, and it actually became annoying because there are other people I want to see. And who can deny how annoying he was throughout the whole show? I understand he is coming here to talk to different girls and go through experiences with them, but what is really annoying about him is that he seemed to not think about his own feelings at all. It is like he didn't allow himself to deeply feel anything for any of the girls, and kept it all at a shallow level, only asking the girls to tell him their feelings and reach out to him and constantly!!! reassure him. Why was it so hard for him to stop for a moment and see how he truly feels? He was able to do it at the end, so I guess he just wanted to have fun and enjoy receiving rather than bother with giving.
- Min Kyu: He grew on me in how mature and true to his feelings he was. Very much the opposite of Gwan Hee, man made his decision from the beginning, and he allowed nothing to interfere or change it. I can't believe he was consoling the other girls when they randomly chose him to go to Paradise with them; he felt like a very warm, considerate, and kind friend. -- I can't hide my feelings, but Gyu Ri does not deserve him.
- Ha Bin: What the hell did this man do that made the editing team almost erase him from the whole show? how can they not show us what he is thinking or doing? He is not a support character just throwing comments to Gwan Hee and whomever. I was frustrated, and I wanted to see more of him. I am certain he is not a terrible person and he deserved a better chance. I want justice for Ha Bin.
- Won Ik: He is a good person, and I think the editing tried to establish that also, but I actually very much understand why Si Eun did not feel anything towards him. He does not carry a conversation, and all the time spent with him felt very awkward. Whether he seemed relaxed or nervous, he was not saying much. He said he had many conversations, honestly, as far as we saw, there was no content and nothing memorable to those conversations. He does not touch your heart, does not show any deep feelings. It is tiring trying to keep the date going.
- Min Woo: Boy is as cute and yet mature as everyone felt at the end. I felt bad for him for the first day, for how he didn't choose Gyu Ri when she did and that seemed to haunt him for days. He is a sincere boy, and he was very cute and fitting for Si Eun. I hope they grow closer and stronger together, they suit each other very well.
- Jin Seok: My man was very manly and endearing. He seems like a typical Daegu person, very manly, loyal, and caring. I understand his choices and feelings throughout the whole show, and I really enjoyed seeing him. He was very funny with all the random comments. At the end, I wished that he had tried to get closer with Min Young, tried to put the teasing aside and really enjoy being together and getting to know each other in this setting. But well, they left together so I hope he takes her more seriously now.
Hye Seon: absolutely adorable and wonderful. I love this girl so much. From the beginning, her smiley and cheery impression was great, on the first Paradise date she seemed very cool and mature, and yet so lovely and lovable. The way she gave Gwan Hee all the space he needed to go out and talk to whoever he wants was so admirable. The way she trusted they will spend the last date together was very cute. She is beautiful and superior inside out. I hated seeing Gwan Hee not appreciate her, and demanding more and more, or blaming her for picking Won Ik. I feel like I would have been making the same choices she made, I really relate to her so much. She is a genuine and real person, and she is truly someone that you cannot forget or let go of. I am glad she made Gwan Hee cry at the end, it was not embarrassing but I am happy if he felt embarrassed. I also did feel like he will pick her at the final choice because the way he cried meant he finally realized his feelings. He couldn't bear to see how hurt she was at the fire gathering. He cried with her and even more after because his heart was really moved and he could no longer dwell or deny it. When he learned that Min Ji cried, and when she cried in front of him, he felt bad at first, and then only seemed worried about her and surprised. It was more of an outside feeling and an automatic reaction. But yeah, I think he also knew how to manipulate the show and the editing team (or they are in agreement) to never say his real final choice until the last word. His comment to Min Ji at the end seemed very shallow and annoying, I dont know if she liked it but it bothered me. If he had actually went with Min Ji at the end I would have slapped him. So, I am glad that Hye Seon got the man at the end, and she smiled so widely it was so endearing to see. I really really hope she remains happy forever. I hope he treats her well, and he better. I wish all the best for my girl Hye Seon.
- Gyu Ri: This girl. Damn she is infuriating from beginning to end. Her fake smile is so uncomfortable and disturbing, especially at the game they played. Exactly what you would see a psycho do in a drama. She also turned into a gang member when she was interrogating Min Woo, like hello? who the hell do you think you are? so full of herself and disrespectful. She thinks she is above all the other girls, but also above Min Woo or any man even. She doesn't realize how off putting her haughty attitude is, and also doesn't realize that her looks arent the best in the world and won't really overpower her behavior. Again, I don't think she deserves Min Kyu, he is too good for her. She better treat him well I swear. I hope he also knows how to put her in her place.
- Min Young: I think I understand that she started off thinking she also came here to talk to and appeal to different men, and she had the right to try out more than one before she settles. Jin Seok literally spent the first day with her and he seemed blindly set, while she appreciated it, it was a little overbearing. But. But. I think her choice of giving 4 candies was stupid, and even stupider that she said it out loud and laughed about it. Everyone was shocked. She always laughs in awkward times, and times that don't require any laughter. If I was her, I couldve just naturally spoke to the other men and seen how it is between us rather than publicly declaring it. I think she is a sweet and loving girl, and also, I felt that she needed some more reassurance and attention. She wanted to feel liked. She doesn't have a baseless confidence the way Gyu Ri does, so she wants more people to appreciate her. I am glad she made up her mind and focused on the one that likes her. I am glad she was persistent till the very end, but again, I wish she talked more. Like, I wish she had some content to their conversation other than do you like me? will you choose me? stop teasing me. She really couldn't express herself well, and didn't try to touch the man in different ways other than the initial charm.
- Si Eun: At the beginning, it was funny how she and Ha Jeong knew each other, and that made me think differently of her. But as the program developed, she turned out to be a very cute and sincere girl. I love her honesty and straightforwardness. She is such a good person. I kept thinking even though she is shy, she is really true to her feelings and very level-headed. I hope she and Min Woo have a wonderful relationship. I really wish the best for them. I think they made the cutest couple.
- Ha Jeong: The way she side stares at someone she is speaking to is so unusual and funny. I am not sure if it's charming, but that gaze is definitely staying in my mind. Her comments and anger were also funny and realistic. I honestly found her to be very genuine, and at times very mature. I am sad that she got so hooked on Gwan Hee and literally tried to hang on for so long even though he seemed not interested. Honestly, he was charming when he was with her in the car and the first helicopter, and I can understand why her heart fluttered, but that was literally the peak for them. I hated the way he treated her when they went to Paradise. He was awful and disrespectful, and nothing he said and did made sense. I really don't understand why she didn't see through it all, and just kept trying. Honestly, she had the opposite effect on him, the more she tried to get him the more he withdrew. He is freaking weird and Ha Jeong deserves better. She will find her match I am sure. She is not an easy one, very smart and observing, but she really has her charms and I am sure men like her.
- Min Ji: Simply said, she is a brat. I don't dislike her, but I also like nothing about her. A 26 years old saying all these things is so embarrassing. She is cute indeed, but the more she acts cute, the less cute she becomes. And also, through all the conversations she had with Gwan Hee, sorry, but she seems empty in the head. All she thinks about is herself and who she likes. Which is great for a moment, but she cannot hold a serious conversation, she gets taken aback and doesn't know how to respond. Also, she simply does not want to have any serious conversation, as if they are meant to spend their whole time acting cute and joking around. At first, I saw why the program chose her to appear in the middle, I guess she stirred things up, but soon enough I thought any other girl could've done that too. At the end, it felt like the program's mission failed, she did not live up to their expectations and she didn't know how to behave. I hope she becomes more mature and reflects on herself, also thinks more realistically of herself.
Of course, the rest of everything in the ending was beautiful and happy. This drama is really one of the bests ive ever watched, and this couple will remain in my heart.
Thats true, much of the evidence leads to DS so he cant ignore it, and honestly, the way DK behaves with him is surely going to make him even more suspicious. I mean, he knew all that Kang Jin Mook did to Min Jung, but he decided to take things into his own hands, and just hid the truth from everyone until it became dangerous for Jae Yi. I didnt understand what his ultimate aim is if he had already found out who killed/kidnapped Min Jung, He couldve literally saved her from death if he had spoken as soon as he figured it out. He is regretful but seriously, its not enough. There is still more we don't know.
As you said, I mean there is no fault it JW taking the credit. it's better for both sides. the only down side is that DS wont have his name cleared in public, but he doesnt care anyways. Also, from the preview of next episode, there is still such a huge mess with the chief and other people. it's too early to clear anyone's name anyways. Even JW might be guilty of something....
But, uhm, is he really second ML? I mean, I think they are equal in their positions. Why should he even be considered second to DS? if it wasnt for Jin Goo, i probably wouldnt have even come across the drama.
You think hes too serious? hahaha I like it actually, I prefer that over DS's creepiness :P
But you're right, both characters are complicated and layered, and we still don't know so much about them. In fact, we know very little only. I also bet his father (and maybe mother) is involved in some shit, which is why he is living his every day worrying about this case. Not even Dong Shik is this invested, or at least he doesn't show it. But this poor boy is dying to get to the bottom of it.
Honestly though, how the hell is Dong Shik able to keep calm around people with everything happening, and with everything that he is himself doing... only crazy people can be like this. Everything is really very interesting and thought provoking with these two.
Gu Reum did get it right in the end, but seriously, those few sentences she said, she couldve said them two episodes earlier and everything would’ve been much better because Zi O wouldnt have been this deep into this path. I really liked her as a character, and I dont see a reason for her death. But yes maybe as you say, she might be not exactly dead. They only showed the scientist tapping Zi O shoulder sadly, so it couldve been explained as sorry couldnt do anything about it or sorry thats all we can do. Basically she might have turned into some non-living creature or shes in coma or something.
But you know whats really unbelievable? Zi O didnt go look for his child. Its only part of the plot for next season, because if it was still within the season, he wouldve 1000% found her one way or another. But no they had to leave her to an adoptive family so he can find her later when her powers are more obvious. And as you said when there is a whole army of lucas that he might fight against.
I dont really hope for a second season because it will bring so much more sadness for many reasons. :(