Just biding time till the next drama on Netflix. Gotta keep our keyboards sharp for the next war.
I don't know, sometimes I just want to write one sentence, but like a cascading waterfall, once I see the words tumble softly down the gentle slopes of my mind, I cannot change the direction nor the flow of the rushing thoughts from my inner soul.
So what first appears in my mind as simple thoughts, eventually turn into manifestos...
Offtopic, but what's worth to note, before that scene (without HJP), when SDM tells him "he's our mentor!", Yongsan…
Yes, they are trying put HJP in a bad light with SDM. I agree.
SST boys are just mentally soft, but in this scene SDM becomes mentally soft also LOL.
What HJP did in that scene is describe to them what Acqhiring is. And for SDM to cry like that shows me her character was already being dumbed down by the writer. Even Saha doesn't cry, because she's a stronger willed person than SDM.
as long as you don't use your insecurity to do immoral things, then blame your insecurities for it, then your…
I'm going to post something at top talking more about the fight scene in more detail.
Actually HJP didn't have enough opportunities to put himself in between NDS and SDM. SDM and NDS had almost 95% time just for themselves. That is why many people thought in the end the love triangle was one sided, since HJP never got the chance.
HJP may have had some low moments, but it's almost always followed by some remorse, and reflection that they are wrong. NDS shows none of this. Also HJP doesn't go through with half those things you accuse him of, which is entirely different from what NDS does.
Not really, NDS is a LOT MORE immature than HJP, and a lot more immoral as well. Keep in mind the definition of morality when thinking about this. The fact that majority of people could not relate to NDS is a proof of his immorality.
People’s perspective on NDS and HJP acts are all determined by their own experiences and relation to these fictional characters. While you didn’t see anything he did as wrong, I certainly did. This I believe is just a difference of principles and morality between us, where I see his acts as wrong, you may see them as either romantic or normal. And that is completely ok, since we are two different people. But for arguments sake, let us delve deeper into the concept of immorality.
First things first, we look at the concept of morality. Simply put, morality is a set standard that is set by an individual or society on what is considered right or wrong behaviour. In this case, the society is represented by MDL users, who for the most part majority saw these acts of NDS as immoral (not correct). Some even label it toxic or unhealthy, but for me, I will just consider these acts as immoral, which means, the society believes these acts are wrong. These moral subsets that the MDL community uses to determine NDS morality stems from our current experience. What does this mean? This means that if NDS were to do this in the real world, it would be considered wrong. Now the argument of real world vs Kdrama world may come at this time to show that Kdrama is not real it’s fiction. But then the counter argument here is that Start Up is clearly being based on the real world, with references to real people like Steve Jobs, and other figures relating to the real world. So at the very core of the show there Is a foundation of realism that cannot easily be dismissed as compared to if the foundation was based on fantasy or science fiction instead. I’m not going to go too deep into the identity of Kdrama as a form of escapism and what it entails, unless you want me to. Simply put, Kdrama’s fictional characters, in the eyes of the community are bound to the same societal rules that we live in.
The punching scene is just the tip of the iceberg. But let us start there. I’m glad you think that the fight scene was cathartic, because that is how I felt HJP has felt, about the whole situation with NDS. For HJP, he has held it in as long as he needed to, and in fact leading to the actual fight scene, he was actually willing to walk away, being the bigger man, but NDS did not want to give HJP that satisfaction. This actually reminds me of how great of an actor KSH is, and his masterful use of micro-expression really shines in this portion of the show. These close ups of KSH has been amazing, an amazing actor such as him given such a platform to flex his micro expression muscles has not gone unnoticed by the audience. To further explain what I mean about this, let us go a few minutes earlier in that episode, before the fight scene.
Let us dissect the scene, episode 12, time stamp 26:06.
Yong San: The hard truth? Then explain the situation to us. Put emotions aside and be as harsh as you want.
We see that Yong San is being emotional here, after all, he is directly responsible for the situation SST is in. So he asked HJP angrily to tell them the harsh truth, with no sugar coating. HJP as you can see here, has a look of reflection. He probably sense that Yong San doesn’t really want the truth, and is just venting. He shift his eyes to look at SDM a little bit. He knows that the real truth will be harsh and may hurt SDM, so he looks down, as he is thinking of the best way to tell them. You’ll notice he blinks a few times, as he is gathering his thoughts, we see a throat swallow, as he knows what he will be saying will be difficult to hear. There is remorse in his eyes. He brushes his lips, as he prepares to speak. Then he finally looks up at SDM.
HJP: The contract has been made. There’s no point in blaming each other. Blame yourselves for not reviewing the contract thoroughly. So just accept it.
HJP tells this truth without malice, and in a neutral tone. After this truth by HJP, notice the reactions of everyone in the room
Yong San – Stunned to hear the truth
NDS – Seething in anger
Saha – Looks like she’s angry at herself, at hearing the truth.
SDM – no emotions. Doe eyed bambi look
Yong San – Feeling guilty as tears stream down his face
Cheul San – Realizes the truth, and looks defeated.
Finally SDM asks.
SDM: Why did this happen?
Once again, keep in mind, HJP is already dropping the harsh truth, so he is not about to sugar coat it now that SDM is asking. Which actually effectively busts SST’s notion that HJP only helps them because of SDM. If this was true, he would sugar coat the answer, but he does not.
So time to tell them the truth.
HJP: 2STO didn’t pay you three billion won for the profit potential of Noongil, but for the accuracy of the solution.
This answer is accurate, and is just the plain truth, since even SDM and NDS knows that Noongil is not profitable. In fact his next words here, is just him describing what Acqhiring is. Notice NDS seethes even more. And says stop even before HJP is about to say his words.
HJP: That is why you two are being fired.
NDS interrupts HJP and grabs HJP and pushes him
You can tell HJP’s intense dislike for NDS here, the stare, but he finishes his thought anyway.
HJP: The rest of you are staying.
Then you see HJP look at NDS again, and you can always hear what he wants to say “That’s right NDS, this is your fault”
Then NDS looks at the rest of SST, and he sees the sad faces. Now I’ve already explained the emotions the rest of SST are showing. But NDS misunderstands this, and in his mind they are sad because HJP told them the truth. NDS doesn’t stop to think that maybe they are sad because they realize they have nobody to blame but themselves. So as we all know NDS goes out instigates a fight with HJP, and etc…
This is highly immoral because, you make a mistake, someone tells you what mistake you made, and instead of getting angry at yourself, you attack an innocent, that had nothing to do with your mistake, and in fact tries to save you from your mistake. In society, this kind of move would be considered wrong, no matter the background of NDS, his actions are not justifiable.
as long as you don't use your insecurity to do immoral things, then blame your insecurities for it, then your…
Both NDS and HJP lies, that is a fact. The difference is in their reactions. HJP shows more remorse than NDS. I don't know if this is because of the actors portrayal or the way the writer intended it, but that is the feeling the audience got from these two characters. And that makes all the difference.
The fact the writer made NDS so infatuated with the "What do you like about me" was a bad move. It made the audience feel that NDS was not going to tell the truth until SDM actually tells him something else rather than big hands. It made NDS look like he had an ulterior motive, and NJH's shifty looks as NDS did not help his case.
TBH, the writers placed so many unnecessary scenes that didn't help her case, and didn't make NDS more likeable. I'm not sure why the writer did not foresee the backlash, did they not focus group the drama before airing?
No need for that, we both have our own opinions, I just reply, because I like replying to interesting comments, which I found yours to be. Don't need to reply to this :)))
You obviously saw yourself in NDS with regards to his insecurities and self esteem issues. And this helped you relate to this character.
I can understand what NDS is feeling, but I don't relate to his actions, so I can't sympathize with him.
Since Christmas is fast approaching, I present you, Park Hye Ryun and Nam Do San Christmas shopping... I dedicate this to Polo749 and her exceptional faith!
PHR: Ok honey, you can only choose one toy for Christmas what do you want it to be?
NDS: Her.
PHR: Oh honey, you can't have her. I have already written her for some other person. How about I make you Korea's Steve Jobs instead?
NDS: No, I want her.
PHR: Honey, please understand that the Ep. 1 has already aired, and I spent two years writing HJP's backstory and everything.
NDS starts to hold his breath
PHR: Sweetie, please stop that, your going to turn blue.
NDS keeps holding his breath.
PHR: Ugh fine!, I'll make you the Main Lead, will that make you happy?
NDS: Yes.
After 5 hours of Christmas Shopping, a tired PHR can be seen sitting on the floor.
PHR: Sweetie, I've given you best friends, great parents, career advancement, money, I have rewritten episode 15 three times, I've cut HJP's screen time, give you the girl you wanted, and some LEGOS, can we go home now?
NDS: Not yet, there is one last thing I want.
PHR: ugh, i'm so tired, what is it?
NDS: His dignity?
PHR: What? you've taken everything from him already can't we leave him with at least that?
NDS: No, because I'm the main lead, and the mean lead gets what the mean leads wants. I want to see him beg.
The story is meant to illicit sympathy for NDS. Here are the factors where we are suppose to sympathize with him.1.…
As a parent though, hearing that from your child makes you feel guilty. And as a child, this is unfair to the parents, as no matter how gently you put it, blaming your parents for how you ended up is playing the blame game.
This reminds me of an uncle of mine, who had his daughter blame him for her depression. She didn't blame him per se, but he mentioned my uncle's strict rule for the reason she has no friends, and has low self esteem and etc... which is essentially blaming and guilt tripping.
The love of NDS family is only seen in the last few episodes, and even then, it doesn't feel real or genuine.
Even if we were to educate them, it would fall on deaf ears. The people who have it, rarely take advice from people without it. It's been like that since the start of time. But it brings us back to the fact that people who have it all, do not elicit sympathy. Which makes you wonder why HJP elicited so much support, since he had money and a good career. Because of one line from Grandma "you are in your 30's and unmarried you are not happy". This one line, pretty much set viewer expectation for HJP's arc. That one line reminded all of us that money isn't everything.
Yes, some people need more help than others, but that is the thing, because NDS character was written SO SO inconsistently, the answer to getting him the help he needed was inconsistent as well. After all SDM has done for NDS, and after making her his dream, it ended up that HJP's blessing was the one thing he needed, even though for almost 15 episodes, this was the one thing NDS did not desire.
as long as you don't use your insecurity to do immoral things, then blame your insecurities for it, then your…
I've seen people on here defend NDS by saying, when your in love with someone we all do bad things, or immoral things. And it's pegged as romantic.
And I don't agree with this at all.
These days, these labels, Insane, Libertine, Psychopaths, Addict, and etc..
Are all being used to excuse bad behavior. It's success rate in fact, has led quite a few people to use these labels as fraudulent excuses of their misbehavior. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it does not. But I am more worried for how often it does work.
Just now, we are seeing people defend NDS for his "Insecurity/self-esteem" issues. This is just a similar label to being a libertine. Especially when it's a label is empirical.
When we do bad things, and we use a label to defend our bad intentions, and people accept our excuse, rather than trying to change who we are, we instead continue doing this bad thing, until we get caught. If we don't get caught, then nothing will stop us from doing that bad thing. Best example of that is cheating on your spouse. In fact NDS coins this line perfectly in his conversation with HJP, where NDS actually says "I will keep up the lie to it's maximum life". I think this is Ep. 2 or 3.
Now, should we not pity these people? It's always a case by case situation. We cannot paint all libertines with the same brush, nor can we paint all addicts with the same brush. The danger of labels is that is normalizes painting these individuals with the same brush, and in those homogenous brush does propensity to be fraudulent occur.
Here are some force fed plot that manifested into actual dialogue in Start Up. The way the writer inserted these dialogue really shows how much she was forcing the narrative, rather than letting audience see for themselves. Some of these are paraphrased since I don't want to bother going back for the exact dialogue.
"Mr. Han is only helping us because of SDM"
"Dosan, you have really grown"
"I am not the Dosan from the letters"
"I like you, just because"
"Dosan, all of this is only possible because of you"
I'm sure, I'm missing a bunch more, but these are the ones of the top of my head, and are mostly from the last few episodes.
News 
So what first appears in my mind as simple thoughts, eventually turn into manifestos...
It's both a curse and a blessing I am afraid.
Gotta keep our keyboards sharp for the next war.
Their company is completely based off nepotism as Cheul San, Yong San, Saha and SDM has never been shown to be competent at what they do.
The only one with real talent was NDS, and Cheul San for Vlogging.
SST boys are just mentally soft, but in this scene SDM becomes mentally soft also LOL.
What HJP did in that scene is describe to them what Acqhiring is. And for SDM to cry like that shows me her character was already being dumbed down by the writer. Even Saha doesn't cry, because she's a stronger willed person than SDM.
Actually HJP didn't have enough opportunities to put himself in between NDS and SDM. SDM and NDS had almost 95% time just for themselves. That is why many people thought in the end the love triangle was one sided, since HJP never got the chance.
HJP may have had some low moments, but it's almost always followed by some remorse, and reflection that they are wrong. NDS shows none of this. Also HJP doesn't go through with half those things you accuse him of, which is entirely different from what NDS does.
Not really, NDS is a LOT MORE immature than HJP, and a lot more immoral as well. Keep in mind the definition of morality when thinking about this. The fact that majority of people could not relate to NDS is a proof of his immorality.
Yes, NDS is a poorly written character.
First things first, we look at the concept of morality. Simply put, morality is a set standard that is set by an individual or society on what is considered right or wrong behaviour. In this case, the society is represented by MDL users, who for the most part majority saw these acts of NDS as immoral (not correct). Some even label it toxic or unhealthy, but for me, I will just consider these acts as immoral, which means, the society believes these acts are wrong. These moral subsets that the MDL community uses to determine NDS morality stems from our current experience. What does this mean? This means that if NDS were to do this in the real world, it would be considered wrong. Now the argument of real world vs Kdrama world may come at this time to show that Kdrama is not real it’s fiction. But then the counter argument here is that Start Up is clearly being based on the real world, with references to real people like Steve Jobs, and other figures relating to the real world. So at the very core of the show there Is a foundation of realism that cannot easily be dismissed as compared to if the foundation was based on fantasy or science fiction instead. I’m not going to go too deep into the identity of Kdrama as a form of escapism and what it entails, unless you want me to. Simply put, Kdrama’s fictional characters, in the eyes of the community are bound to the same societal rules that we live in.
The punching scene is just the tip of the iceberg. But let us start there. I’m glad you think that the fight scene was cathartic, because that is how I felt HJP has felt, about the whole situation with NDS. For HJP, he has held it in as long as he needed to, and in fact leading to the actual fight scene, he was actually willing to walk away, being the bigger man, but NDS did not want to give HJP that satisfaction. This actually reminds me of how great of an actor KSH is, and his masterful use of micro-expression really shines in this portion of the show. These close ups of KSH has been amazing, an amazing actor such as him given such a platform to flex his micro expression muscles has not gone unnoticed by the audience. To further explain what I mean about this, let us go a few minutes earlier in that episode, before the fight scene.
Let us dissect the scene, episode 12, time stamp 26:06.
Yong San: The hard truth? Then explain the situation to us. Put emotions aside and be as harsh as you want.
We see that Yong San is being emotional here, after all, he is directly responsible for the situation SST is in. So he asked HJP angrily to tell them the harsh truth, with no sugar coating.
HJP as you can see here, has a look of reflection. He probably sense that Yong San doesn’t really want the truth, and is just venting. He shift his eyes to look at SDM a little bit. He knows that the real truth will be harsh and may hurt SDM, so he looks down, as he is thinking of the best way to tell them. You’ll notice he blinks a few times, as he is gathering his thoughts, we see a throat swallow, as he knows what he will be saying will be difficult to hear. There is remorse in his eyes. He brushes his lips, as he prepares to speak. Then he finally looks up at SDM.
HJP: The contract has been made. There’s no point in blaming each other. Blame yourselves for not reviewing the contract thoroughly. So just accept it.
HJP tells this truth without malice, and in a neutral tone. After this truth by HJP, notice the reactions of everyone in the room
Yong San – Stunned to hear the truth
NDS – Seething in anger
Saha – Looks like she’s angry at herself, at hearing the truth.
SDM – no emotions. Doe eyed bambi look
Yong San – Feeling guilty as tears stream down his face
Cheul San – Realizes the truth, and looks defeated.
Finally SDM asks.
SDM: Why did this happen?
Once again, keep in mind, HJP is already dropping the harsh truth, so he is not about to sugar coat it now that SDM is asking. Which actually effectively busts SST’s notion that HJP only helps them because of SDM. If this was true, he would sugar coat the answer, but he does not.
So time to tell them the truth.
HJP: 2STO didn’t pay you three billion won for the profit potential of Noongil, but for the accuracy of the solution.
This answer is accurate, and is just the plain truth, since even SDM and NDS knows that Noongil is not profitable. In fact his next words here, is just him describing what Acqhiring is.
Notice NDS seethes even more. And says stop even before HJP is about to say his words.
HJP: That is why you two are being fired.
NDS interrupts HJP and grabs HJP and pushes him
You can tell HJP’s intense dislike for NDS here, the stare, but he finishes his thought anyway.
HJP: The rest of you are staying.
Then you see HJP look at NDS again, and you can always hear what he wants to say “That’s right NDS, this is your fault”
Then NDS looks at the rest of SST, and he sees the sad faces. Now I’ve already explained the emotions the rest of SST are showing. But NDS misunderstands this, and in his mind they are sad because HJP told them the truth. NDS doesn’t stop to think that maybe they are sad because they realize they have nobody to blame but themselves. So as we all know NDS goes out instigates a fight with HJP, and etc…
This is highly immoral because, you make a mistake, someone tells you what mistake you made, and instead of getting angry at yourself, you attack an innocent, that had nothing to do with your mistake, and in fact tries to save you from your mistake. In society, this kind of move would be considered wrong, no matter the background of NDS, his actions are not justifiable.
NDS is more like Sheldon. Because of his logical mind, he comes of as awkward, but he's not shy.
Raj, is the shy one.
The fact the writer made NDS so infatuated with the "What do you like about me" was a bad move. It made the audience feel that NDS was not going to tell the truth until SDM actually tells him something else rather than big hands. It made NDS look like he had an ulterior motive, and NJH's shifty looks as NDS did not help his case.
TBH, the writers placed so many unnecessary scenes that didn't help her case, and didn't make NDS more likeable. I'm not sure why the writer did not foresee the backlash, did they not focus group the drama before airing?
No need for that, we both have our own opinions, I just reply, because I like replying to interesting comments, which I found yours to be. Don't need to reply to this :)))
You obviously saw yourself in NDS with regards to his insecurities and self esteem issues. And this helped you relate to this character.
I can understand what NDS is feeling, but I don't relate to his actions, so I can't sympathize with him.
It's simply a difference of perspective.
PHR: Ok honey, you can only choose one toy for Christmas what do you want it to be?
NDS: Her.
PHR: Oh honey, you can't have her. I have already written her for some other person. How about I make you Korea's Steve Jobs instead?
NDS: No, I want her.
PHR: Honey, please understand that the Ep. 1 has already aired, and I spent two years writing HJP's backstory and everything.
NDS starts to hold his breath
PHR: Sweetie, please stop that, your going to turn blue.
NDS keeps holding his breath.
PHR: Ugh fine!, I'll make you the Main Lead, will that make you happy?
NDS: Yes.
After 5 hours of Christmas Shopping, a tired PHR can be seen sitting on the floor.
PHR: Sweetie, I've given you best friends, great parents, career advancement, money, I have rewritten episode 15 three times, I've cut HJP's screen time, give you the girl you wanted, and some LEGOS, can we go home now?
NDS: Not yet, there is one last thing I want.
PHR: ugh, i'm so tired, what is it?
NDS: His dignity?
PHR: What? you've taken everything from him already can't we leave him with at least that?
NDS: No, because I'm the main lead, and the mean lead gets what the mean leads wants. I want to see him beg.
PHR: ugh fine.
Ep. 16 airs...
The End.
This reminds me of an uncle of mine, who had his daughter blame him for her depression. She didn't blame him per se, but he mentioned my uncle's strict rule for the reason she has no friends, and has low self esteem and etc... which is essentially blaming and guilt tripping.
The love of NDS family is only seen in the last few episodes, and even then, it doesn't feel real or genuine.
Even if we were to educate them, it would fall on deaf ears. The people who have it, rarely take advice from people without it. It's been like that since the start of time. But it brings us back to the fact that people who have it all, do not elicit sympathy. Which makes you wonder why HJP elicited so much support, since he had money and a good career. Because of one line from Grandma "you are in your 30's and unmarried you are not happy". This one line, pretty much set viewer expectation for HJP's arc. That one line reminded all of us that money isn't everything.
Yes, some people need more help than others, but that is the thing, because NDS character was written SO SO inconsistently, the answer to getting him the help he needed was inconsistent as well. After all SDM has done for NDS, and after making her his dream, it ended up that HJP's blessing was the one thing he needed, even though for almost 15 episodes, this was the one thing NDS did not desire.
And I don't agree with this at all.
These days, these labels, Insane, Libertine, Psychopaths, Addict, and etc..
Are all being used to excuse bad behavior. It's success rate in fact, has led quite a few people to use these labels as fraudulent excuses of their misbehavior. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it does not. But I am more worried for how often it does work.
Just now, we are seeing people defend NDS for his "Insecurity/self-esteem" issues. This is just a similar label to being a libertine. Especially when it's a label is empirical.
When we do bad things, and we use a label to defend our bad intentions, and people accept our excuse, rather than trying to change who we are, we instead continue doing this bad thing, until we get caught. If we don't get caught, then nothing will stop us from doing that bad thing. Best example of that is cheating on your spouse. In fact NDS coins this line perfectly in his conversation with HJP, where NDS actually says "I will keep up the lie to it's maximum life". I think this is Ep. 2 or 3.
Now, should we not pity these people? It's always a case by case situation. We cannot paint all libertines with the same brush, nor can we paint all addicts with the same brush. The danger of labels is that is normalizes painting these individuals with the same brush, and in those homogenous brush does propensity to be fraudulent occur.
"Mr. Han is only helping us because of SDM"
"Dosan, you have really grown"
"I am not the Dosan from the letters"
"I like you, just because"
"Dosan, all of this is only possible because of you"
I'm sure, I'm missing a bunch more, but these are the ones of the top of my head, and are mostly from the last few episodes.