I am happy to find that there are others who think alike! I have had some discussions in the comment section (some weeks ago) about this and was confused by the answers (and, in my opinion, the mental gymnastics) used to put the blame on P'Toh. I normally only leave a review and don’t engage in the comments, but some of the remarks simply baffled me.
I don't really understand the victim-blaming in this series. I was thinking that perhaps it’s more about the actors than the characters, or maybe it comes from an inexperience with toxic relationships, there was no other way for me to explain some of those comments. I saw people calling P'Tohs behavior "simply dumb", saying he "chose it", or arguing that because he is an "adult", he should "know better" and that it is basically his fault because he could have left Jimmy earlier.
The reason I started commenting is that, while this is just fiction, it shows how people maybe think in real life and how active victim-blaming is. It can create a mindset where people who fall for such cruel individuals and end up in toxic relationships are blamed instead of the predator. For people who are currently in such relationships, this creates even more shame. I am confused by how people call P'Toh out and, in doing so, (I hope) involuntarily protect the predator.
Furthermore, I don't understand why so some say this should not happen because of his age. They argue it would be understandable if P'Toh were a teenager, but they fail to see that "emotional age" is not always the same as "chronological age." Some young people have had experiences that make them less vulnerable, while older individuals may have much less experience and thus fewer defenses.
Being a genuinely nice person, trusting, pure, and good-hearted, seems to be viewed by some as a flaw or something an adult shouldn't have. I find that deeply sad. Being a good person doesn't make someone "stupid," and it certainly doesn't mean they "deserve" or are "at fault" for being manipulated. The way some even seem to want to protect Jimmy makes it worse, it is as if because we know "Jimmy is a cruel player" it's somehow okay (perhaps because people find the actor attractive?), while P'Toh is the "stupid" one for falling for it.
I think the series is okay (not necessarily my cup of tea), but I’m interested to see where it goes. It is quite realistic in certain aspects. Jimmys love-bombing, his cruel manipulation, and his calculated actions are typical for predators. He knows exactly who is vulnerable and how to exploit those weaknesses. He knows how to hurt people like P'Toh and uses every tactic on him, making him feel safe, valued, loved and seen. He acts in direct opposition to what Teh warns P'Toh about, showing "fake" affection just strongly enough to be convincing. He knows P'Toh has no experience and no emotional protection, and he exploits that cruelly.
This is very close to how actual toxic relationships start. It doesn't require a lot of time, and it doesn't only happen to teenagers or "stupid" people. This can happen to highly intelligent adults as long as there is an emotional opening. Predators use their psychological knowledge and experience to check exactly how far they can go. As soon as they see an opening, they attack. They know how to bind the other person to them, and they know that society can sometimes be crueler to the victim than the perpetrator. That social judgment makes it even scarier for a victim to seek help or leave.
The reason I am so invested is that this could have some real-world effects. I imagine someone in a similar situation reading these comments and thinking, "Ah, so people really think it's my own fault and I'm just stupid..." That kind of thinking only serves to excuse cruel behavior.
‼️‼️‼️⚠️ STOP READING IF YOU HAVE NOT YET WATCHED! BELOW IS NOT JUST ON THE LEVEL OF ANSWERING…
First I am very sorry for the VERY LONG comment! It is hard to convay in a shorter way for me... I can understand if this is to much (>.<)
If it is "Iron's loop," I very much agree with your thoughts! I think if we take what we see and hear (especially in the last 2 episodes), what you wrote is the most likely outcome. There are multiple reasons and possibilities for me:
1) He is only a "normal" patient who is in a comatose state, and all the death/killing is just his psyche trying to understand his situation, aka his broken brain trying to make sense of the noises in his hospital room (here I would mostly point to your comment, as it is already very detailed). In that case, the "failed experiment" is simply that he is still "dying" (no brain activity without the medication).
2) He is a psychopath/murderer and he was maybe sentenced to death, but his lover (Marduk), with the help of a lawyer (Tayo), made it so that he was "allowed" to be part of the experiment. The "experiment" is that he is kept in a comatose state to see (if he is given the "chance" to experience a moment in time where he can decide a way of living and emotions) "would he change his mind" and not become a "psychopath." But the experiment "failed" because he always ends in murdering someone (multiple people).
Things pointing to this are the "mugshot" we see at the end of episode 6, where he wears the clothes in which we also see him kill his pregnant girlfriend; also his "own thoughts" of being a psychopath, the talk to his "mother," and his nearly emotionless behavior until he can "control" others (especially their lives). But also, the comment of the doctor (Copper) could still fit here: "He was supposed to be dead a long time ago" (e.g., death sentence).
3) Some thoughts I had (after watching it again and thinking for some time) that would go even further are: even the parts in the last hospital we see are part of the loop. What would support this are: the obstructed visuals and the talks he has with, e.g., "his mother," him being in the room (outside the apparatus), him being seen without the helmet sitting on the apparatus, him running from the facility, and him killing everyone around him in the facility. This could only mean he would be to some degree aware that he is in this exact situation in that room, far more than just the "voices." This would be strange if he was already in that stage (comatose) when being brought into the facility, or it is simply just another part of the world in his mind. This is also supported by the very last scene after the woman (head of the organization) talks to him and everything rewinds (so actually another "loop"). And so all the people he sees in the hospital are not actually there (just like in the other worlds, e.g., the dystopia, the garden, the dark world...).
So, something that could put it all together is my thought of his "loop" (or maybe simply in his psychotic mind):
The people he sees in his loop (all the worlds: the dystopia, the dark world, the garden, the rundown hospital with all 4 characters in the beds, the clinic with him in a coma) are all people from his past (many of which he actually killed) and situations that somewhat happened:
- "Eve," a woman he (kind of) "loved." The reason he killed her (besides him being a psychopath) was that he was also in love with her brother (Marduk), but also because she was pregnant and he did not want to let the psychopath DNA go on (also supported by him (thinking) talking with his "mother" about his father and in the same moment thinking of kissing his lover and the killing of Eve). This is also shown throughout the show: when meeting Eve (and her dying), it's also when he has intimacy with Marduk (e.g., in the house). Both characters are mostly intertwined, especially the intimacy.
- "Marduk" his lover and the brother of his girlfriend. This is supported by Marduk saying (to his sister), "My little sister is so lucky to have someone who openly loves her with all his heart, without having to hide anything" (being in a "straight" relationship), "You'll come back to me someday" (after being left by Iron), "Please take care of my lil niece or nephew in her belly" (basically Iron left Marduk for his sister). But in the end, Iron killed her and the unborn child. (If it is Iron's loop, I think he maybe was also killed by him in reality, which is why we see him being killed in his "mind world").
- "Copper," the new lover of Marduk (after the break up), whom Iron sees as "weak" (maybe because he is somewhat jealous of Iron, who he knows is still in Marduk's heart, which is also why we see the scene where he gets mad/jealous of Iron and Marduk). The scene where Marduk dies and Copper gets extremely emotional is maybe a real situation after Marduk gets killed and Copper gets extremely emotional (again, a sign for Iron that Copper is "weak") before also being killed by him. The role of the doctor is his way of seeing Copper—as someone who tried to heal Marduk (his heart)—and saying "you should let him go" is not meant to let him die but to "let his feelings go."
- "Ananke" (in Greek mythology she is also seen as "mother" of the Fates) is actually his mother, who always plays a "central role" in his life; someone who was questioning him a lot, someone who saw the good but also the really bad in him, also the one who gave him his name (the first person to call him "Iron"), and also his literal "fate" (being his mother and having him with seemingly a psychopath father). Also, her role as the head nurse makes sense: the one who nurtured him. And then as the role of his literal mother.
- "Tayo": we see Tayo as someone who is cynical, who also shares a kind of less emotional personality, someone Iron (kind of) respects, someone who Iron maybe sees as "(somewhat) equal" (at least to a point). If what we see is some kind of distorted "reality," he maybe actually was in a facility (psychiatry) with Iron, a place where psychiatric criminals were placed, which makes Tayo someone who to a point shared a mindset with Iron, someone who came close to his thinking, someone who could somewhat understand Iron and could so be seen as someone whom Iron took more seriously... until he made the mistake of showing his emotions and falling for Iron (maybe after actually trying to escape) and so showed his "weakness" and was also killed by Iron.
- The other nurses also being some of his victims (we see him in many roles with them, also in intimate situations), maybe people he had short affairs with before killing them.
I think he actually killed the pregnant "Eve." In the other cases, it could also be an "emotional killing": Marduk by getting with someone else (but as he actually felt something for him, he also lets him be the "lover who keeps him alive"); Copper for taking Marduk from him (but he knows is someone that can "heal" Marduk like a doctor, someone who actually feels love for Marduk); Tayo for showing emotions/"love" (he is the only one who understands the "rules" of the institution; in many psych wards, patients become "legal experts" like a lawyer on their own rights; Iron views Tayo as his only defense against the outside world), and so on...
...sorry, I hope it is somewhat understandable...
Most of the above would stay, e.g., 2), but it is Marduk taking the outside influence (sounds/pictures) into his mind. Copper is someone (a doctor, or a lover) who wants Marduk "to let go" of his feelings for Iron (a psychopath who killed his sister) and of Iron in general, as he is "already dead" (death sentence after killing Eve). Tayo is his lawyer/legal representation, as he maybe is in a psych ward without his consent (the experiment is to rewire his mind of twisting the reality "Iron is not a murderer," he is just a "victim" himself, nothing is "true," basically a mental breakdown).
So most of what is written in the long statements before stands (especially 2 and 3), just the reason for the "loops" change and who the one is having it.
The reasons why I could think of this being "Marduk's" mind (view): The name "Marduk" was at some point seen as the "god of the gods" (Babylon); he is also basically "Adam," the first person with "the apple" (he then feeds to the others); he is mostly the one listening to what the others have to say (the observer). Why this would make sense:
Theory one (which I thought first):
1) The last actual scene we see before everything falls apart is: Marduk talks to Iron and Iron says (basically emotionless), "I just feel like I was the one killing Eve." In that moment you can see the shock in Marduk's face (reality sinking in for a moment). He then emotionally tries to deny this, saying to Iron, "No one killed ANYONE," followed by, "Everything happened and then it just disappeared" (complete denial), "Disappeared, as if it never happened" (not wanting to face reality), "It hurts when we don't even get to say goodbye. I understand that" (this made me think, "who could he not say goodbye" to and how does he "understand," but if he is talking about his killed sister, it does make total sense). Compared to Iron, Marduk shows real emotions (really feeling hurt). Then Iron (nearly mechanically) says, "I understand you, Marduk. What I feel for you, it's not like I feel nothing" (this is when you can see a kind of relief in Marduk's face, as it is something you would want to hear) and him saying, "No matter where you are, no matter who you are with, I will be here right next to you" (basically not caring anymore). He then asks if he can hug Iron (clearly happy) before breaking down in pain (the way Iron reacts in the first moment is scary, emotionless, even if he then is calling for "help").
If Marduk is in a kind of psychiatric institute (maybe also experimental) being treated, it could be seen as a moment of getting medication, as he is in a denial state and is drifting away from facing reality again:
He then sees himself as the one being accused of being the murderer, but it is different from the way Iron is shown later—much more and longer denial, and much more real emotions. Eve says first, "You killed me," but when he denies it, she follows with, "You made me die" (which makes sense that he thinks that, if he was Iron's lover before and so sees himself as the person bringing him into her life). When everyone accuses him of being the one, they also say, "Everything that happened, it was all because of you" (again, this could be him giving himself the fault for being the first to bring Iron into their lives).
2) What if Marduk is the murderer and these are the last moments of/before his death (death sentence by injection and or still the experiment):
Marduk was in a relationship with Iron and they had to hide it; eventually Iron left him (in ep 7 Marduk says, "You'll come back to me someday"). This started to drive him mad and he started to kill everyone that came close to Iron (the two women, maybe Estar and Tina, whom we see Iron being intimate with, at least in the simulation/mind). They both accused Marduk of killing them in episode 6. He also killed Tayo (someone Iron seems to have respected highly, which we see in Iron's remarks about him) as he came really close to Iron (maybe also in a loving way). But then Iron fell in love with Eve ("My little sister is so lucky to have someone who openly loves her with all his heart, without having to hide anything") and she eventually became pregnant ("Please take care of my lil niece or nephew in her belly"). This drove Marduk so mad he even killed his own sister Eve and then his love Iron (after seeing how Marduk killed Eve). Copper is someone who loves Marduk and believes him—that he would never do something like that (e.g., when being arrested). This is what is seen in the non-real world: "I believe you," "You are not a person who would do something like this." In the end, he does not want to accept that reality and frames Iron in his mind to be the "murderer" and himself as his savior (letting him live in the comatose state).
This would explain why he sees Iron as the "main focus," why he sees everyone wanting to be with Iron (that is how he saw it in reality). He does not want to accept that; that is why he says things like, "No one killed anyone" and "Everything happened and then it just disappeared" to Iron in the non-real world, and that is why he sees himself as the murderer first (being confronted with reality) but then tries to vehemently deny it. Many things point to that in my opinion, like him saying, "Death is that easy" (referring to him murdering), "Why do I have to die?" (as the death sentence injection is given or being in a comatose state and would die if the experiment stops) and getting the answer from Iron, "Beasts like you just sleep forever and ever" (again, death sentence or comatose stat).
Because he does not want to realize reality, he "frames" Iron in his mind (basically it is Iron's fault for not loving him and for being with others) and so makes him the murderer and himself the savior, and his other victims the hospital staff.
The reason I think it is not Iron and/or at least the hospital we see at the end is still not realety (even if it is Irons loop), is the way we see Iron/this world in the same way as in the "other non-real worlds", we see sudden switches, he is sometimes not in the chair or not comatose, evryone is dead around him, the behavior and the way Iron (at the near end) speaks diractly to the "camera" (in my opinion to Marduk), it also makes no sence that the woman (the head of the experiment) would talk to a dead Iron at the end and lastly, the "rewind" at the very end (basically another loop) and Iron waking up again.
We both liked this yet came to wildly different conclusions about what was presented which is fascinating! (I…
Wow I love your review and all the thoughts, and I don't think we "came to wildly different conclusion" when it comes to "Irons Loop" (I will answer more on your comment)! :)
Toh really is dumb. He knows what Jimmy is, but wants more of it after a moment of cry. Now this is what he is…
We can agree to disagree, but I don't believe having a kind, trusting heart makes a person "dumb" or "weak", it just makes them a target for Jimmy who chooses to be cruel and manipulative predator.
Psychologically, "intermittent reinforcement" works fastest at the start of a relationship (it does not at all need years). P'Toh is experiencing his first ever romance, he has no baseline for what is healthy. Hearing a reputation is nothing compared to experiencing "love" for the first time. Since Jimmy even managed to deceive someone who knew his track record, for me it's more than clear the problem is Jimmy's predatory skill, not P'Toh (and him being inncocent).
But again, I think we can only agree to disagree, as we are walking in circles with our comments.
Toh really is dumb. He knows what Jimmy is, but wants more of it after a moment of cry. Now this is what he is…
I think you misunderstood my point (maybe we would agree on some points, but the wording makes it hard for me to find that common ground). Explaining how a person is manipulated is not the same as saying P'Toh is "choosing it" or is being "dumb". Actually, the "cognitive dissonance" I mentioned basically means he doesn't (fully) know what he is doing, his brain is actively protecting him from realizing the truth because it's too painful to face (at the moment). That isn't a lack of intelligence, it’s a psychological defense mechanism. P'Toh is effectively being gaslit., that doesn't make the victim "dumb", it makes the manipulator "dangerous".
In my personal opinion, calling P'Toh "dumb" (or a fool) and saying it is simply "a choice" puts the burden of Jimmy's disgusting behavior on P'Tohs (the victim's) shoulders. This is exactly why people in real-life toxic/abusive relationships often don't ask for help, they are afraid people will judge them or tell them "it was your choice" instead of supporting them. Personally, I think Jimmy is the one making a "choice", and Jimmy is the one being "dumb" and "making a fool of himself"!
Toh really is dumb. He knows what Jimmy is, but wants more of it after a moment of cry. Now this is what he is…
I understand what you’re saying, but I disagree that age always makes you immune to this things. Emotional maturity comes from experience, not a birth date. Since P'Toh is so naive and innocent (espacially in romatic relationships), he is basically an emotional teenager (or a so called "late bloomer").
He is trapped in cognitive dissonance (it is what you feel when you hold two conflicting beliefs at the same time). Accepting that the person he gave his firsts to is actually cruel is too painfull, so his brain tries to rationalize Jimmy's behavior as a survival mechanism. If common sense was all it took to leave, toxic relationships wouldn't exist for adults, but they sadly do.
I think Jimmy is manipulative through (what we call in psychology) intermittent reinforcement: every time Teh gives his brother warnings, Jimmy performs a small gesture of intimacy. This resets P'Tohs hope and keeps him "addicted" to the relationship (this is something that also works similar for gambling). Jimmy knows he holds all the power and simply lets P'Tohs heart do the work of trapping him.
Toh really is dumb. He knows what Jimmy is, but wants more of it after a moment of cry. Now this is what he is…
I see it differently. I don't think P'Toh is simply "dumb", I think he is emotionally overwhelmed. This is his first love and his first physical experience, that can create a level of attachment that isn't easily broken by logic. Also P'Toh is trying to protect the only source of a feeling he has never had before and he is staying with Jimmy at the moment, because the "truth" is so devastating that his mind creates a version of reality he can survive in. First love can causes a kind of "tunnel vision" I don't think P'Toh isn't caring for Teh, he is drowning in his own situation. It is maybe a (tragic) character flaw, but not a lack of care for Teh.
It is easy for us to see Jimmy's red flags, but for P'Toh it's the first person who made him feel special in that kind of way. He isn't choosing to be "tricked" he’s desperately hoping the person he loves actually exists. It's not a lack of intelligence (being dumb) it's a very realistic (and painful) portrayal of how vulnerable someone can be during their first heartbreak, espacially someone who is so naive and was overly protected before.
how is Teh at fault ?! he was in love with Fah for a long time didn't wanted Jimmy to be with him.. when Fah told…
Jimmy never "respected the bro code" from the start. He started flirting with his so-called "friend's" (innocent) brother long before Teh slept with Fah. He lied to Teh, saying he wasn't interested in his brother (even after Teh explained that P'Toh is very innocent) but then said P'Toh was "tempting" while laughing about Teh not "getting it."
He also went to Teh's house behind his back and lied to him again. Teh got really angry and basically begged Jimmy to back off. Even Jimmy's ex asked him why he was doing this to Teh’s brother, but Jimmy only cared if it made his ex jealous.
Even after Teh told him more than one time to back off from his brother and told him to how innocent and naive his brother is, all Jimmy thinks about is how he can use P'Toh (his friends brother) by flirting and making P'Toh like him to get what he wants, even though he knows this would already break P'Tohs heart and would be bad for Teh. I think Jimmy disrespected their friendship from the very beginning.
how is Teh at fault ?! he was in love with Fah for a long time didn't wanted Jimmy to be with him.. when Fah told…
I think both lied, but Jimmy started it. His lies are so bad: he started flirting with P'Toh from day one, but told Teh he was not interested. He visited P'Toh behind Teh's back and would have lied more if Teh hadn't seen it on the camera. Even Jimmy’s ex asked him why he does this! Jimmy even said Teh's brother was "tempting" long before anything happened. He did all that before Teh and P'Fah became a thing. I don’t see how "Jimmy would not have pursued Fah" he didn't even listen when Teh told him not to play with his brother's feelings (again before Teh did it with P'Fah). He also still sees P'Toh even after Teh does not meet P'Fah anymore.
how is Teh at fault ?! he was in love with Fah for a long time didn't wanted Jimmy to be with him.. when Fah told…
I am not sure if this was meant to my comment, maybe because I said "he (Jimmy) is definitely far worse than Teh". In that case, I think it was a bad move of Teh to sleep with P'Fah before clearing that up with Jimmy, he could at least have told him and maybe not do "it" in the same room. That said, it's only a bad move, and it's clearly not as bad as what Jimmy does, by far! The main reason I said that was because some people seem to be more angry with Teh than with Jimmy and I could not understand that, that is why I said "he (Jimmy) is definitely far worse than Teh".
Personally, I think Jimmy is the worst character. He begins by betraying his then-boyfriend, and on the very same day as the breakup, he says P’Fah is his new "target", but also begins flirting with P’Toh (well before Teh and P’Fah even have a connection). It’s clear he later gets angry out of a bruised ego rather than genuine feelings for Fah. He lies to both Teh and Toh constantly. Episode 4 truly exposed his character when he slept with Toh (and even took photos), fully aware that this would literally destroy Toh emotionally. I’m curious about his endgame: if Teh follows his demands and stops seeing P'Fah, how would he not hurt P'Toh, what is Jimmy’s plan? Will he date both P'Toh (to "not hurt" him) and P'Fah? Since he’s already manipulated Toh into falling for him and even refuses to stop seeing him, even after Teh backed off from Fah, he is definitely far worse than Teh.
I don't really understand the victim-blaming in this series. I was thinking that perhaps it’s more about the actors than the characters, or maybe it comes from an inexperience with toxic relationships, there was no other way for me to explain some of those comments. I saw people calling P'Tohs behavior "simply dumb", saying he "chose it", or arguing that because he is an "adult", he should "know better" and that it is basically his fault because he could have left Jimmy earlier.
The reason I started commenting is that, while this is just fiction, it shows how people maybe think in real life and how active victim-blaming is. It can create a mindset where people who fall for such cruel individuals and end up in toxic relationships are blamed instead of the predator. For people who are currently in such relationships, this creates even more shame. I am confused by how people call P'Toh out and, in doing so, (I hope) involuntarily protect the predator.
Furthermore, I don't understand why so some say this should not happen because of his age. They argue it would be understandable if P'Toh were a teenager, but they fail to see that "emotional age" is not always the same as "chronological age." Some young people have had experiences that make them less vulnerable, while older individuals may have much less experience and thus fewer defenses.
Being a genuinely nice person, trusting, pure, and good-hearted, seems to be viewed by some as a flaw or something an adult shouldn't have. I find that deeply sad. Being a good person doesn't make someone "stupid," and it certainly doesn't mean they "deserve" or are "at fault" for being manipulated. The way some even seem to want to protect Jimmy makes it worse, it is as if because we know "Jimmy is a cruel player" it's somehow okay (perhaps because people find the actor attractive?), while P'Toh is the "stupid" one for falling for it.
I think the series is okay (not necessarily my cup of tea), but I’m interested to see where it goes. It is quite realistic in certain aspects. Jimmys love-bombing, his cruel manipulation, and his calculated actions are typical for predators. He knows exactly who is vulnerable and how to exploit those weaknesses. He knows how to hurt people like P'Toh and uses every tactic on him, making him feel safe, valued, loved and seen. He acts in direct opposition to what Teh warns P'Toh about, showing "fake" affection just strongly enough to be convincing. He knows P'Toh has no experience and no emotional protection, and he exploits that cruelly.
This is very close to how actual toxic relationships start. It doesn't require a lot of time, and it doesn't only happen to teenagers or "stupid" people. This can happen to highly intelligent adults as long as there is an emotional opening. Predators use their psychological knowledge and experience to check exactly how far they can go. As soon as they see an opening, they attack. They know how to bind the other person to them, and they know that society can sometimes be crueler to the victim than the perpetrator. That social judgment makes it even scarier for a victim to seek help or leave.
The reason I am so invested is that this could have some real-world effects. I imagine someone in a similar situation reading these comments and thinking, "Ah, so people really think it's my own fault and I'm just stupid..." That kind of thinking only serves to excuse cruel behavior.
If it is "Iron's loop," I very much agree with your thoughts! I think if we take what we see and hear (especially in the last 2 episodes), what you wrote is the most likely outcome. There are multiple reasons and possibilities for me:
1) He is only a "normal" patient who is in a comatose state, and all the death/killing is just his psyche trying to understand his situation, aka his broken brain trying to make sense of the noises in his hospital room (here I would mostly point to your comment, as it is already very detailed). In that case, the "failed experiment" is simply that he is still "dying" (no brain activity without the medication).
2) He is a psychopath/murderer and he was maybe sentenced to death, but his lover (Marduk), with the help of a lawyer (Tayo), made it so that he was "allowed" to be part of the experiment. The "experiment" is that he is kept in a comatose state to see (if he is given the "chance" to experience a moment in time where he can decide a way of living and emotions) "would he change his mind" and not become a "psychopath." But the experiment "failed" because he always ends in murdering someone (multiple people).
Things pointing to this are the "mugshot" we see at the end of episode 6, where he wears the clothes in which we also see him kill his pregnant girlfriend; also his "own thoughts" of being a psychopath, the talk to his "mother," and his nearly emotionless behavior until he can "control" others (especially their lives). But also, the comment of the doctor (Copper) could still fit here: "He was supposed to be dead a long time ago" (e.g., death sentence).
3) Some thoughts I had (after watching it again and thinking for some time) that would go even further are: even the parts in the last hospital we see are part of the loop. What would support this are: the obstructed visuals and the talks he has with, e.g., "his mother," him being in the room (outside the apparatus), him being seen without the helmet sitting on the apparatus, him running from the facility, and him killing everyone around him in the facility. This could only mean he would be to some degree aware that he is in this exact situation in that room, far more than just the "voices." This would be strange if he was already in that stage (comatose) when being brought into the facility, or it is simply just another part of the world in his mind. This is also supported by the very last scene after the woman (head of the organization) talks to him and everything rewinds (so actually another "loop"). And so all the people he sees in the hospital are not actually there (just like in the other worlds, e.g., the dystopia, the garden, the dark world...).
So, something that could put it all together is my thought of his "loop" (or maybe simply in his psychotic mind):
The people he sees in his loop (all the worlds: the dystopia, the dark world, the garden, the rundown hospital with all 4 characters in the beds, the clinic with him in a coma) are all people from his past (many of which he actually killed) and situations that somewhat happened:
- "Eve," a woman he (kind of) "loved." The reason he killed her (besides him being a psychopath) was that he was also in love with her brother (Marduk), but also because she was pregnant and he did not want to let the psychopath DNA go on (also supported by him (thinking) talking with his "mother" about his father and in the same moment thinking of kissing his lover and the killing of Eve). This is also shown throughout the show: when meeting Eve (and her dying), it's also when he has intimacy with Marduk (e.g., in the house). Both characters are mostly intertwined, especially the intimacy.
- "Marduk" his lover and the brother of his girlfriend. This is supported by Marduk saying (to his sister), "My little sister is so lucky to have someone who openly loves her with all his heart, without having to hide anything" (being in a "straight" relationship), "You'll come back to me someday" (after being left by Iron), "Please take care of my lil niece or nephew in her belly" (basically Iron left Marduk for his sister). But in the end, Iron killed her and the unborn child. (If it is Iron's loop, I think he maybe was also killed by him in reality, which is why we see him being killed in his "mind world").
- "Copper," the new lover of Marduk (after the break up), whom Iron sees as "weak" (maybe because he is somewhat jealous of Iron, who he knows is still in Marduk's heart, which is also why we see the scene where he gets mad/jealous of Iron and Marduk). The scene where Marduk dies and Copper gets extremely emotional is maybe a real situation after Marduk gets killed and Copper gets extremely emotional (again, a sign for Iron that Copper is "weak") before also being killed by him. The role of the doctor is his way of seeing Copper—as someone who tried to heal Marduk (his heart)—and saying "you should let him go" is not meant to let him die but to "let his feelings go."
- "Ananke" (in Greek mythology she is also seen as "mother" of the Fates) is actually his mother, who always plays a "central role" in his life; someone who was questioning him a lot, someone who saw the good but also the really bad in him, also the one who gave him his name (the first person to call him "Iron"), and also his literal "fate" (being his mother and having him with seemingly a psychopath father). Also, her role as the head nurse makes sense: the one who nurtured him. And then as the role of his literal mother.
- "Tayo": we see Tayo as someone who is cynical, who also shares a kind of less emotional personality, someone Iron (kind of) respects, someone who Iron maybe sees as "(somewhat) equal" (at least to a point). If what we see is some kind of distorted "reality," he maybe actually was in a facility (psychiatry) with Iron, a place where psychiatric criminals were placed, which makes Tayo someone who to a point shared a mindset with Iron, someone who came close to his thinking, someone who could somewhat understand Iron and could so be seen as someone whom Iron took more seriously... until he made the mistake of showing his emotions and falling for Iron (maybe after actually trying to escape) and so showed his "weakness" and was also killed by Iron.
- The other nurses also being some of his victims (we see him in many roles with them, also in intimate situations), maybe people he had short affairs with before killing them.
I think he actually killed the pregnant "Eve." In the other cases, it could also be an "emotional killing": Marduk by getting with someone else (but as he actually felt something for him, he also lets him be the "lover who keeps him alive"); Copper for taking Marduk from him (but he knows is someone that can "heal" Marduk like a doctor, someone who actually feels love for Marduk); Tayo for showing emotions/"love" (he is the only one who understands the "rules" of the institution; in many psych wards, patients become "legal experts" like a lawyer on their own rights; Iron views Tayo as his only defense against the outside world), and so on...
...sorry, I hope it is somewhat understandable...
Most of the above would stay, e.g., 2), but it is Marduk taking the outside influence (sounds/pictures) into his mind. Copper is someone (a doctor, or a lover) who wants Marduk "to let go" of his feelings for Iron (a psychopath who killed his sister) and of Iron in general, as he is "already dead" (death sentence after killing Eve). Tayo is his lawyer/legal representation, as he maybe is in a psych ward without his consent (the experiment is to rewire his mind of twisting the reality "Iron is not a murderer," he is just a "victim" himself, nothing is "true," basically a mental breakdown).
So most of what is written in the long statements before stands (especially 2 and 3), just the reason for the "loops" change and who the one is having it.
The reasons why I could think of this being "Marduk's" mind (view): The name "Marduk" was at some point seen as the "god of the gods" (Babylon); he is also basically "Adam," the first person with "the apple" (he then feeds to the others); he is mostly the one listening to what the others have to say (the observer). Why this would make sense:
Theory one (which I thought first):
1) The last actual scene we see before everything falls apart is: Marduk talks to Iron and Iron says (basically emotionless), "I just feel like I was the one killing Eve." In that moment you can see the shock in Marduk's face (reality sinking in for a moment). He then emotionally tries to deny this, saying to Iron, "No one killed ANYONE," followed by, "Everything happened and then it just disappeared" (complete denial), "Disappeared, as if it never happened" (not wanting to face reality), "It hurts when we don't even get to say goodbye. I understand that" (this made me think, "who could he not say goodbye" to and how does he "understand," but if he is talking about his killed sister, it does make total sense). Compared to Iron, Marduk shows real emotions (really feeling hurt). Then Iron (nearly mechanically) says, "I understand you, Marduk. What I feel for you, it's not like I feel nothing" (this is when you can see a kind of relief in Marduk's face, as it is something you would want to hear) and him saying, "No matter where you are, no matter who you are with, I will be here right next to you" (basically not caring anymore). He then asks if he can hug Iron (clearly happy) before breaking down in pain (the way Iron reacts in the first moment is scary, emotionless, even if he then is calling for "help").
If Marduk is in a kind of psychiatric institute (maybe also experimental) being treated, it could be seen as a moment of getting medication, as he is in a denial state and is drifting away from facing reality again:
He then sees himself as the one being accused of being the murderer, but it is different from the way Iron is shown later—much more and longer denial, and much more real emotions. Eve says first, "You killed me," but when he denies it, she follows with, "You made me die" (which makes sense that he thinks that, if he was Iron's lover before and so sees himself as the person bringing him into her life). When everyone accuses him of being the one, they also say, "Everything that happened, it was all because of you" (again, this could be him giving himself the fault for being the first to bring Iron into their lives).
2) What if Marduk is the murderer and these are the last moments of/before his death (death sentence by injection and or still the experiment):
Marduk was in a relationship with Iron and they had to hide it; eventually Iron left him (in ep 7 Marduk says, "You'll come back to me someday"). This started to drive him mad and he started to kill everyone that came close to Iron (the two women, maybe Estar and Tina, whom we see Iron being intimate with, at least in the simulation/mind). They both accused Marduk of killing them in episode 6. He also killed Tayo (someone Iron seems to have respected highly, which we see in Iron's remarks about him) as he came really close to Iron (maybe also in a loving way). But then Iron fell in love with Eve ("My little sister is so lucky to have someone who openly loves her with all his heart, without having to hide anything") and she eventually became pregnant ("Please take care of my lil niece or nephew in her belly"). This drove Marduk so mad he even killed his own sister Eve and then his love Iron (after seeing how Marduk killed Eve). Copper is someone who loves Marduk and believes him—that he would never do something like that (e.g., when being arrested). This is what is seen in the non-real world: "I believe you," "You are not a person who would do something like this." In the end, he does not want to accept that reality and frames Iron in his mind to be the "murderer" and himself as his savior (letting him live in the comatose state).
This would explain why he sees Iron as the "main focus," why he sees everyone wanting to be with Iron (that is how he saw it in reality). He does not want to accept that; that is why he says things like, "No one killed anyone" and "Everything happened and then it just disappeared" to Iron in the non-real world, and that is why he sees himself as the murderer first (being confronted with reality) but then tries to vehemently deny it. Many things point to that in my opinion, like him saying, "Death is that easy" (referring to him murdering), "Why do I have to die?" (as the death sentence injection is given or being in a comatose state and would die if the experiment stops) and getting the answer from Iron, "Beasts like you just sleep forever and ever" (again, death sentence or comatose stat).
Because he does not want to realize reality, he "frames" Iron in his mind (basically it is Iron's fault for not loving him and for being with others) and so makes him the murderer and himself the savior, and his other victims the hospital staff.
The reason I think it is not Iron and/or at least the hospital we see at the end is still not realety (even if it is Irons loop), is the way we see Iron/this world in the same way as in the "other non-real worlds", we see sudden switches, he is sometimes not in the chair or not comatose, evryone is dead around him, the behavior and the way Iron (at the near end) speaks diractly to the "camera" (in my opinion to Marduk), it also makes no sence that the woman (the head of the experiment) would talk to a dead Iron at the end and lastly, the "rewind" at the very end (basically another loop) and Iron waking up again.
Psychologically, "intermittent reinforcement" works fastest at the start of a relationship (it does not at all need years). P'Toh is experiencing his first ever romance, he has no baseline for what is healthy. Hearing a reputation is nothing compared to experiencing "love" for the first time. Since Jimmy even managed to deceive someone who knew his track record, for me it's more than clear the problem is Jimmy's predatory skill, not P'Toh (and him being inncocent).
But again, I think we can only agree to disagree, as we are walking in circles with our comments.
In my personal opinion, calling P'Toh "dumb" (or a fool) and saying it is simply "a choice" puts the burden of Jimmy's disgusting behavior on P'Tohs (the victim's) shoulders. This is exactly why people in real-life toxic/abusive relationships often don't ask for help, they are afraid people will judge them or tell them "it was your choice" instead of supporting them. Personally, I think Jimmy is the one making a "choice", and Jimmy is the one being "dumb" and "making a fool of himself"!
He is trapped in cognitive dissonance (it is what you feel when you hold two conflicting beliefs at the same time). Accepting that the person he gave his firsts to is actually cruel is too painfull, so his brain tries to rationalize Jimmy's behavior as a survival mechanism. If common sense was all it took to leave, toxic relationships wouldn't exist for adults, but they sadly do.
I think Jimmy is manipulative through (what we call in psychology) intermittent reinforcement: every time Teh gives his brother warnings, Jimmy performs a small gesture of intimacy. This resets P'Tohs hope and keeps him "addicted" to the relationship (this is something that also works similar for gambling). Jimmy knows he holds all the power and simply lets P'Tohs heart do the work of trapping him.
It is easy for us to see Jimmy's red flags, but for P'Toh it's the first person who made him feel special in that kind of way. He isn't choosing to be "tricked" he’s desperately hoping the person he loves actually exists. It's not a lack of intelligence (being dumb) it's a very realistic (and painful) portrayal of how vulnerable someone can be during their first heartbreak, espacially someone who is so naive and was overly protected before.
He also went to Teh's house behind his back and lied to him again. Teh got really angry and basically begged Jimmy to back off. Even Jimmy's ex asked him why he was doing this to Teh’s brother, but Jimmy only cared if it made his ex jealous.
Even after Teh told him more than one time to back off from his brother and told him to how innocent and naive his brother is, all Jimmy thinks about is how he can use P'Toh (his friends brother) by flirting and making P'Toh like him to get what he wants, even though he knows this would already break P'Tohs heart and would be bad for Teh. I think Jimmy disrespected their friendship from the very beginning.