Kochase

Hey now, that's unfair. No one (at least in this comment thread, unsure if you've posted earlier on) is 'crucifying' you. Just because we disagree and present our opinions (and really, what were you hoping for lol? That people just upvote your sentiment only? Especially on a page *for* The Untamed?) doesn't mean you're being crucified lol. We didn't call you names or anything.

It's perfectly acceptable to have differing opinions, but since you're free to present your opinion, of course we're free to present ours back. :P If you can't take it, don't dish it.

And yes, discussing differing opinions can get a bit messy, because it invariably dips a bit into an 'I'm right, you're wrong' notion, no matter how mature we try to be.

Maybe a piece of advice - if you're critiquing a drama on its own, it's totally fair to comment on the drama page. And yes, sometimes you might use elements of another drama to illustrate a point. But if you're looking to talk about how another drama is better, and overall air complaints about how unfairly popular a drama is - comment on the 'better' drama's page. Like for me, while I enjoyed WoH, I don't understand the superhype. But even if I might write a review for WoH, I wouldn't go picking a fight over how The Untamed > WoH on WoH's drama page lol (alright, I've been tempted a few times hahaha).

Anyway. Personally, I love a discussion and debating people lol (my weakness is I always end up writing way too much lol.) And I don't take any personal offense to it. But if you know you might end up feeling attacked as a result of opposing viewpoints, maybe don't set yourself up for that?

tl;dr - Everything is chill. Relax. Enjoy what you want. Ignore what you don't. Rinse and repeat!

Normally, that's pretty much the gist of it, but I think a lot of people say Wei Ying also as a form of disrespect. Like, your peers *should* call you by your courtesy name out of respect, unless you're close. But then they will also call you by your birth name out of intentional discourtesy.

It's weird... I don't think I've seen a formal explanation of this, but a lot of the times when those bystanders talked down about WWX, they said 'Wei Ying'. I guess it's like nicknames? Like... coming from someone close, it's an endearment. But coming from someone not close, a nickname can come off as an insult.

Ugh Chinese names... so complicated lol. It also took me like way too long to realize there is not 'set' of Chinese names, but they're all individually constructed based on meaning. And I'm Chinese. Lol.

Dude, if you want Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo up-to-date content... just look up all the bjyx / yizhan vids on Youtube lol. It's endless. XiaoMan does a lot of good 'candies' videos, where candies are supposed moments between them.

Even if you don't ship them (and I get it, RPS can get weird and terrible as we've seen with 227), it's the best way to see their friendship continue on behind the scenes. They've dissected the hell out of Weibo hahahaha. A lot of them are kind of eye-rolling, but it's all fun.

There are always multiple angles to a story :) China isn't as bad as some Western media portrays, but it's definitely not nearly as good as it portrays itself too. Keep in mind that while all countries do propaganda to an extend, and all countries probably do sabotage each other's images, China is unique in their capabilities in exercising propaganda.

While most of the stuff you mentioned are yes, ignorant and biased Western portrayals of Chinese culture, the thing about Muslim minorities *is* a real issue. If you're seeing examples of Muslim heritage being openly celebrated... it might be propaganda, honestly. The camps are real, the genocide via birth control is real (and remember, China has even enacted birth control on its own citizens). The CCP only tolerates religion to the extent that it does not overshadow its own influence. If and when it deems a power to encroach upon their influence, they take action to 're-educate', 'reform', and otherwise 're-balance' the field. Now, of course terrorist activities and radical dangerous practice of religion should be banned in any country, but China is morally OK with taking 'pre-emptive' measures. You can't have radical Muslims if they're taught to prioritize the national identity first, right?

China's culture is one of hierarchy, conformity, and 'those in power are king'. It's ruthlessly efficient in making progress (the technological leaps these past decades are amazing), but it can also be extremely unforgiving towards those of lesser privilege and different backgrounds.

The US and China are two ends of spectrums of political ideology, and both have a lot of problems. (I use US and China because they're more comparable in terms of economic prowess and land / population mass than other countries).

I think it comes down to this: If you are the standard citizen that China aims to govern, your standard of living is probably awesome and superior to what you might find in the US. If you are *not* the standard citizen, because you are of a different faith, race, have health or mental conditions, etc. then your standard of living in China is pretty abysmal.

I could go on and on about China's governance issues (but also how it's not as simply 'black' as Western media portrays). There's a lot of subtlety tied to the culture that makes up the complexity of the politics. As a Chinese-American, I'm happy you realize that China does have a lot of good aspects, and that Western media has its own biases and tends to portray China negatively. But sadly, there *are* a lot of human rights issues plaguing China, and freedom of speech is a big one. It's funny, of course, that they're not *completely* in the wrong. Look at the US and the mess of fake news - blatant free speech can cause damage too. But China's approach is one of total control.

Hahaha well... there's a looooooooooot of stellar bts and actor CP content if that floats your boat. Although RPS (real person shipping) can get a bit hairy (and it did for the Untamed actors, sadly), these two really are just... too sweet for words. Whether they're good friends or something more (and I'm definitely not claiming they are anything more), there's a lot of hilarious and sweet moments between them.

Basically (and not saying the actors are their characters), imagine the scene where LWJ was drunk and childish and proposing a la chickens to WWX, who was like 'what am I gonna do with this kid'... that right there is pretty much the dynamic of Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo lol.

Anyway... just offering you this remedy because this is how I dealt with my withdrawal symptoms after rewatching it a second time. I didn't dive into the bts the first time because I do feel a bit questionable about RPS but.... these two really do get up to way too much good stuff hahaha.

The real good storyline begins after that lol. When WWX starts becoming the Yiling Patriarch / going down that dark path. Hope you enjoy it, but eh, don't force yourself if it doesn't jibe with you.

Oh god I could write a dissertation about the themes here, especially the ones echoing of the depth of their bond.

This is why, although I detest the government's ban on homosexual materials being shown, I do like that it forces the producers to convey feelings more deeply, not just rely on blatant skinship or cheesy lines to make a BL drama.

When they were chased by Lanling Jin, and LWJ says "Wei Ying, do you remember what you asked me in Cloud Recesses? The feeling of walking down a lone plank bridge till the end... is indeed not so bad." (And guh, once again I curse Chinese to English translations because it always sounds more stunted in English.) THIS. This means so much more than "I love you." This conveyed everything so beautifully and in a manner so succinctly LWJ... I died. In two lines, he conveyed his regret over not standing by WWX back then, of not believing in him, and his willingness to stand with him now, above all else. That's it. No giant spiel of love proclamations or dramatic gestures. Just these two lines. And a soft smile.

And WWX, who can only respond with, "Lan Zhan, ah Lan Zhan", accepting that LWJ was now on his side no matter what. So he won't disrespect that decision by making more heroic self-sacrificing gestures. Even though he asked LWJ again if he's sure, he already accepted LWJ's decision to stand by him.

The tragedies and difficulties of their relationship are constructed entirely through believable plot circumstance and their differing personalities and perspectives on life. No OOC or random drama was inserted for the purpose of furthering their relationship. How beautiful is that?

And in case you didn't know, 'Wuji' is the drama producers' way of bypassing censorship. 'Wangxian' is the original title, which is too obvious. But 'Wuji' is also a mix of their names. Only, because Wuji (their name mashup) has a homonym counterpart that also has a meaningful definition (unrestrained), it was chosen instead. :)

Same hahaha. WoH has more mutual flirtation and 'skinship', which is still artfully done, but doesn't strike me at the same levels as the slow burn development and raw tragedy of Wangxian.

It's inevitable that people will compare shows, but since we're on The Untamed page here, it's acceptable to favor The Untamed right? ;) Anyway, WoH was definitely fun and I enjoyed it a lot. But I realized I enjoyed it mostly because of Wen Kexing and Wen Kexing alone. Zhou Zishu... I can't grasp his character very well. And Wen Kexing's feelings kind of feel... un-echoed / kind of weak from ZZS's end. Like he's going through the motions but not actually feeling it.

WWX and LWJ... I realize I enjoyed them even *more* the second time I watched it. A lot of people criticize WYB's somewhat lethargic portrayal of LWJ, I think it's more due to disadvantageous camera shots. WYB actually did a pretty good job of portraying LWJ. LWJ's slow and steady development of feelings towards WWX is not at all expressed in his words to WWX, because he's really not an expressive person. But it is in his actions and also, his words to everyone *around* WWX, in growing defense of WWX. He's a righteous character through and through, and to see him really rethink his morals and views on the world (all silently, never as voice-over thoughts) as a result of his feelings towards WWX... it's really beautiful. Whereas, ZZS had a lot of voice-overs to explain his thoughts, but I still don't feel a solid development.

WWX was amazing to watch, XZ gave such a stellar performance. Scene wise, his are definitely my fave. But it also took LWJ to really close that bond and steal our hearts with that sweet and heartbreaking development. Through LWJ did the tragedy of WWX echo that much more strongly.

Again, I did enjoy WoH. But it also doesn't ensnare me like WangXian did. The childish part of me does sometimes get a little upset that people are proclaiming WoH as the best BL ever, better than The Untamed, but I know everyone has differing opinions so it's kind of moot to argue. Buuuuuut on home ground, I think I can be forgiven to tout the awesomeness of The Untamed right? :P

Yeah the school days arc can be a bit slow. But seriously, the real drama starts after... well let's just say the Wens are not the interesting 'enemy' here. 20+ is definitely where it's at.

The production value is definitely lower, and it *is* marketed as an 'idol drama', so at face value, it's definitely not as 'epic' as Royal Nirvana and they do have to have a lot of eye-rolling unrealisticness (no one looks that good after battles ok).

However, the storyline and the themes it presents, along with the well-roundedness of the characters (all of them, not just the main two) - their motivations, journeys, etc. - are all pretty amazing. And I think it's the storyline and the characters that really captured / moved a lot of people. I tried to get into Royal Nirvana, I did... because it does look amazing, but the pacing was definitely a bit slow for my taste and overall mood a bit too tempered in the first few eps that I just couldn't get too into it. While drama-making artistry I'll hand over to Royal Nirvana even from the few episodes I watched, it just didn't reel me in and pull my heartstrings along like The Untamed did. But to each their own. I can totally appreciate your love for Royal Nirvana. It does look good.

Acting level to me kind of depended. Initially, I thought Jiang Cheng's acting was way over-acted. But then I kind of thought about it and... his character itself kind of is over-reactive. So the over-acting actually makes sense. But yes, I get you. There's a lot of cringe sometimes especially with how the camera pans over a dramatic moment... some losses need to be taken. But the acting of the two main amazed me (more so the second time I recently rewatched).

Bah, anyway. Your opinions are your own. Understandable if it's not your cup of tea. But also not sure why you're watching this if you're not a fan of the genre to begin with.

It took me by surprise too lol. Like... huh? Not saying they don't have a right to be upset, but wouldn't you generally be busy feeling afraid of their reaction? Panic, I get. Panic-angry, I can also get. But angry and yelling that they're disappointed in their parents? Seemed a bit odd.

Also - spoiler tag ;)

Sure, military shows all have an element of nationalism, which I did mention. But again, the difference is that China's government directly intervenes in airing schedules and the entertainment industry to promote the more nationalistic materials. As stupidly (but also sometimes charmingly) nationalistic as a lot of Hollywood movies can get, the US government can't exactly stop airing of other higher-popularity movies just to promote such materials. In the end, the audiences who watch army / military dramas are probably fans of that genre. They're not shepherded to watch it because they've been deprived of all other interesting content.

I'm not bashing on it being full of propaganda before it airs. That's why I did caveat / qualify a lot of it. 'Potential' propaganda is what I said. Be mindful is all I'm saying. I'm sure the show itself will still be enjoyable, and maybe some folks are aware enough to distinguish propaganda / fiction from reality, But not everyone. Enjoy it in the realms of a fictional story, but don't let it color political sentiments. There's a lot of political issues whirling around China right now, and nationalism is the card any country plays when they try to consolidate power (I mean, just look at Trump and what he said to gear people up).

And before you say, it doesn't matter, it's just a show. Obviously, the CCP cares enough to think and know it *does* matter. Otherwise why would they prevent other popular genres from airing during this time? Every country does propaganda, but none has the mastery of the CCP. They're brilliant at this. And look at the US's propaganda - even without much intentional push / backing, we have half the country all swept up in nationalistic fervor and American superiority. China recently with this intentional push? The rhetoric in China is getting violently nationalistic. They're becoming more and more anti-Japanese (always an issue ofc), and anti-US.

tl;dr - Not saying don't enjoy the show or the show is already bad. Just saying be mindful of fact vs. fiction.

This is such a murky topic but... keep in mind that these kind of political / leaning-propaganda shows are what the Chinese government is *actively* trying to promote. And (purely speculation, so take it as you will) it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility that the CCP 'encourages' very popular / influential stars to partake in these projects to ensure that audiences do watch these kind of shows.

I know for a fact that they artificially inflate the popularity of political movies. I knew people in China who worked in movie theaters and come summertime, they'd be forced to air all these nationalistic movies and take the loss when no one watches them. Looks like the gov has now gotten smarter about *actually* getting people to watch these kinds of shows by way of leveraging popular actors. (Of course, I've got no actual evidence; take it or leave it.)

Not saying that all political / military dramas are CCP manipulated... obviously every country's dramaland has its share of nationalistic / militaristic dramas, but only in China does the gov have such a direct involvement in the entertainment industry, and it's definitely the case that they're trying to prioritize these kind of shows (banning costume / fantasy shows from airing during the summer and potentially stealing audience attention). Anyway... enjoy the show still as we all should, and support the artists. But maybe... be wary of potential propaganda, and understand this project may not necessarily be what the artists themselves 100% chose.

It sucks that they can never keep the same cast... but I suppose it helps if folks have different preferences and such. Dislike the cast for one? There's another that might work better . But so far, I feel like I've grown to enjoy all the different casts.

But now I've got a total thought worm for casting that won't leave me... I would love to see Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo (from The Untamed) team up again to play Wu Xie and Zhang Qiling. Their real personas actually match the characters surprisingly well (Xiao Zhan has the sweetest smile and is too kind and honest, and Wang Yibo is quiet, cool, and more machine than man with his athletic prowess).

But ah... there's zero chance of that happening... T_T

For folks interested, here's the Weibo supertopic for Immortality: https://weibo.com/p/100808ce758a2cc072f896d1f879a7e61ec80d

Granted, you're limited to the first page and no text expansion if you don't have an account, but if you use MTL you can get a gist of what folks are talking about. The folks over there are suffering just as much if not more than us hahahaha (the supertopic has 71K posts lol).

Aaah right? At this point, I'm less anxious about when it will come out, but more anxious over, will it come out in its intended form or will more censorship get triggered.

Like please... either have this teaser mean you will safely deliver this asap, or don't have teasers at all because it really might bring about the wrong attention. >.< I can take a wait, but I do not want to hear about a second round of stricter censorship reviews.

Ah, my personal opinion is that while WoH is definitely most direct / impacting in terms of showcasing romance vibes, The Untamed still did a better job in terms of underlying emotions between the two characters (alright, brief tangent and risk of comparing dramas hahaha).

I think Wen Kexing definitely has a strong grasp of emotions throughout, and hence his emotional play was awesome to watch, but Zhou Zishu's character and journey felt a bit... flat to me. Lol please don't shaft me here, but idk... I think the character itself was not amazingly defined like WKX's was. Hence the performance also felt a bit... surface? I loved watching their interactions less for their mutual emotions, but more just WKX alone. I feel like ZZS's character was constructed to give WKX an opportunity to be a shameless flirt lol. His own journey of learning to live felt a bit muted.

Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji's gradual emotional journey were both painfully / realistically raw and real, even though they don't hit the romantic actions as much. Even though LWJ is super stoic, there's a very gradual evolution of his emotions and actions. Relatively speaking, LWJ does not have as much airtime as ZZS did, but I still got a better grasp of LWJ than ZZS. TBF, it was also very long and plotty, which allowed them more time to develop this slowly. As a result, the emotions between the two resonated more with me than the emotions between WKX and ZZS. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd choose stellar emotions over romantic actions.

Hence why I'm perfectly OK with Immortality just hitting that mark. They don't need to have lovey-dovey moments like WoH did as long as the underlying emotions are acted out well.

But anyway... my personal opinion lol. I don't mean to delve into a battle of the dramas. I know a lot of people index harder on showcasing romance vibes, which understandably WoH brought more of. I would certainly love for Immortality to bring as much of the novel, both the emotions and romantic actions, to fruition. But, and here's my point I guess, I suspect it will fall closer to what The Untamed was like because the story line / plot dynamic / relationship development is more akin in style to The Untamed than WoH. They're both 50 episodes, and the characters go through multiple stages of journeys, with different roles played at each stage, there's angst over standing on opposite sides, there's a sense of wanting to correct their mistakes, right a wrong, etc. There's enough emotions for them to play with through plot circumstance that they don't necessarily *need* romantic notions to carry the show. So I wouldn't expect WoH levels of blatant romance, but that shouldn't be an aspect to disappointed by since there should be an amazing emotional play.

Anyway.... please no one shaft me over comparing WoH and The Untamed lol. Just wanted to illustrate the different styles of storytelling, and what kind Immortality is likely going to adopt. I know a lot of people are big fans of WoH, and I really enjoyed it too.

Heh, the teacher-disciple relationship in Chinese culture is pretty intimate too, platonic or otherwise. Your teacher becoming practically family is pretty common. I don't think they'll have a problem using that as their 'brotherhood' equivalent.

I think I'm less worried now seeing some of the photos and the insider review of some episodes. Also, Tencent *did* bring us The Untamed, which did emotional undercurrent so well, I did not for a second miss the lack of skinship / physical romance (they portrayed their mutual love so well).

Disclaimer - I haven't read the 2ha novel yet and only know some rough elements. But I feel like they'll do the same thing - focus on the storyline, characters' journeys, and emotional intensity.