Maggi64

Bang-on, every reason you gave is excellent! In fact, I have read dissertations that cite many of those reasons. The operative point is that none of those reasons are negative things. Sure, the woman may be disappointed that real gay men don't actually have bubble baths, candlelit dinners, and strolls on the beach, and are more likely engaged in hot, grunt sex, but that's the woman's problem. It's not a problem for the gay man. Thus, most of the gay men I know have no issues with fujoshis. To the contrary, they see fujoshis as allies, as well they should.

I would go a step further and like to see the same crowd support Girl's Love as well. That's a new and wonderful genre happening in the East right now. Like BL, the GL also focuses on romance over politics. It's just how the East does their shows. The West imbues politics, the East does not. It's why I like Eastern shows, albeit the fluff factor is often too much.

I recommend a GL called "Handmaiden" out of Korea. It's set during the Japanese occupation of Korea and depicts a wonderful, healthy lesbian relationship wherein the women empower each other. Western critics loved it too. It's on Amazon, or can be rented for $3.00.

I agree that the tolerance of Christianity is contingent on the country in which it is practiced. For instance, the Irish Catholics are stricter than the American Catholics. In fact, there is a small sect of Catholics who despise the new Pope and call him a Communist.

As for BL trope of the seme-uke, yea, that's a cliche. It's the same thing that happens when they depict lesbians with one butch and one femme. Somebody asked my lesbian friend who was the "man" and who was the "woman" in her relationship and she replied, "Um, we are both women .If I wanted a man I would not be a lesbian." LOL. The same goes for gay men. If they wanted women they would not be sleeping with men. I think the whole seme-uke thing correlates sexual positions with personality and that's just not how it works. Yet the BL's present it as if the aggressive man is the seme and the passive guy is the uke. It can actually go any way.

Are there any more extras that you know of?

The show got better by ep 5. Alas, just as it improved an absurd plot point was introduced. There is no way a famous actor needs to be producing porn. To begin, no famous actor needs the money and the risks to his career are too great. Maybe an actor did porn BEFORE he was famous, but not while he is famous.

What the hell were the writers of this show thinking? Were they just desperate for a plot point and thought, "Oh, I know, let's toss in some porn." The writers were on a much surer foot when telling us the actor was gay. Why did they drop a good plot point to pick up a silly one?

Yes, it did occur to me that they did more than kiss. But I am still annoyed by the way the other character just disappeared. That's a rather cheap way to end a story, as it gives no resolution, development, or explanation. It just leaves a plot point hanging there in the wind. I wouldn't even mind if Bible Boy was praying his gay away at the end if the writers had at least written a full story for the other character.

Was he a player and just messing around? Did he split because he's so closeted that being with Bible Boy risks exposing himself? Does he have a girlfriend who he doesn't want knowing about Bible Boy? It could be any of those things, but the writers did not feel the need to develop the character at all. In fact, he's so undeveloped that, as yo u said, he could've been dreamed up by Bible Boy.

Wait, one thing was developed. He was an ace in the art of seduction! lol. I mean "forgetting" his bible at Bible Boy's house. Needing the water (which he gulped seductively). Then the change of shirt (giving Bible Boy a peek at his naked torso). And the way he grabbed Bible Boy's hand to make him stand up for that kiss. That is one thing we know about him: he's an artist at seduction .

Thanks for a strong reply. I was knocking myself out to be polite and build some consensus with this guy but it eventually became clear that he enjoys being offended so as to cop a self righteous attitude. The type who slams fujoshis for "fetishizing" when he'd have no problem with a couple of dudes getting off on lesbian porn, is clearly just hunting for opportunities to toss out terms that mark others as homophobes.

On that score, having a fetish does not make one, ipso facto, homophobic. There's nothing wrong with getting off on a foot fetish, pregnancy fetish, gay male fetish, or lesbian fetish. If something arouses you, then power to you. As long as you are not hurting anyone, it's fine. All "fetish" means is that you are aroused by something that arouses a very small portion of the population. Yet this guy has branded fujuoshis with "fetishes" as if that should make me stop at a screaming halt and apologize. You know, the way he dropped the "I am gay" and that was supposed to shut me down.

As for homophobic Christians, you are also right. At this point, it's largely Muslims who are persecuting gays. When it comes to gay rights, the Christians are actually the most progressive religion worldwide. In fact, a number of Protestant Churches even have openly gay clergy -- including gays and lesbians, while most other religions only have male clergy. And it's not just in "bubble land" America, but across Europe. The Pope is also the Pope of the world and he's made pro gay statements. I really think this movie is as much about Korean culture as it is about Christianity, because being a Christian there is still very regressive. It's where European Christians were 50 years ago. But one would have to actually know about Christianity to make this case, and not just looking for easy targets to slam as "homophobes."

Excellent point about the bible. That's something latter day Christians inserted, but it's actually not there. It's about, as you said, pedophilia.

I think you also make a good point about this show being about desire. And how one is comfortable with his desires and the other is not. But I am still baffled as to why the comfortable guy took off at the end.

It's "Please Tell Me So." I got to look up the others cuz that's the only one I know of. He's adorable. And he was adorable in Love Class too. In fact, I thought Bible Boy in this one looked a lot like the tall one from Love Class. He had the same interesting nose. Both have great looks.

I don't think there's anything harmful in women wanting to see cute boys hook up. After all, don't hetero men always want to see cute girls hook up? It's a classic trope in male porn. Nobody gets worked up over it when it's guys wanting to see girl on girl, so why do we get worked up when it's girls seeing guy on guy? Frankly, I had expected the Queer Studies Depts to get worked up too, and was pleasantly surprised that they did not go the easy route of "everything is homophobic" and instead sought out some really interesting ideas.

One reason they could not come out against BL's is that study after study concluded that BL's have changed perceptions of gays for the better in Asia. In Korea, which is slow coming, most who changed their minds about gay people cited having seen a BL as a reason. They say that the BL's made them feel gays were not so foreign from themselves. In short, the genre serves to normalize a minority, which is a positive. Indeed, there are no negative consequences of BL's. I realize it gives pleasure to call others "homophobic" but your claim that the fujoshi culture is homophobic is, nevertheless, unfounded by fact.

If you want to see the facts, check out some dissertations and research on BL's. They are all over online. Just search under Doctoral Degrees and Boys Love, or Queer Studies and BL. There's some fascinating stuff. There's also an indication of a growing field for Girls Love from Asia, and academics are looking at that too. A terrific Asian GL is "Handmaiden" out of Korea.

I loved the lesbian Leopold and Loeb. You know, the gay couple who famously murdered for kicks in the 1950's.

I guess you've never seen actual porn. If you had, then you know the difference. To begin, porn features up close shots of genitalia and shots of genitalia entering orifices. But what most distinguishes porn is that there is no character or story involved, it is just straight up sex acts designed to arouse the viewer. The sex scenes in this film were decidedly not designed to arouse viewers but, rather, to show how the characters were falling deeper and deeper into their attraction and how/why this would lead to tragedy. In short, the sex scenes were in service to the story and characters and that's why it was not porn.

Agreed. I think BL is definite fantasy, but I also like how it focuses on relationships over politics. American LGBT movies start off with characters marching down 5th Avenue with Rainbow flags and can be politically preachy. I prefer it when the politics are via human stories such as how Night Flight handled it. That was an indictment on political realities of Korea such as homophobia and elitism, told via characters without being preachy.

As for BL's coming out of Korea, I like shows like Cherry Blossoms After Winter and Where Your Eyes Linger because they are fluffy as BL's should be, but still show how real homophobia is in Korea. The mom in Cherry Blossoms screams and shakes as if she'd seen a monster when she sees her son kissing a boy. The dad in Where Your Eyes Linger ships his kid off to another freaking continent.

Incidentally, academics are now writing a lot about BL's and they don't mind that they are fluffy and fantasy. The Queer Studies Depts have latched onto them as the hot new topic. I am an English Professor so I subscribe to certain academic journals and I see tons of dissertations on BL's from Asia. The consensus is that even though they are written by females for a female market, and even though they are fluffy fantasy, they nonetheless create a positive feeling toward gay men. Some describe them as "safe spaces" for women to examine men. That's interesting. I am a female and I feel like I am peeking into the secret lives of men. I also happen to love Asian Cinema in general and find Asian men hot as hell, lol

Ok, that's your experience. Nevertheless, the K-BL's present a false image of gay life there, thus allowing viewers to live in a bubble. Some of the shows are realistic, such as Cherry Blossoms After Winter and Where Your Eyes Linger, where parents were horrified about having gay sons. Alas, most other K-BL's present a cozy fluffy world for gay men which is simply not accurate.

The most realistic Korean depiction of gay life was not a BL, however, but a film by a gay director called Night Flight. He also directed a film called No Regrets, which similarly deals with a gay men. He's an openly gay filmmaker in Korea, which is hard to be. Those films are pretty famous so you've likely already seen them, but if not I recommend them highly. When it comes to those films being great, I think we'll finally both agree :)

The Pope is the Pope internationally, not just for Americans, ie my country. He sets the tone for International Christians all over the world. This is why 2 characters in the Bible Study said it was ok to be gay and that God loved you anyway. That's a repeat line of the Pope's, who said God loves you anyway. Again, this left room for the show to portray the gay guy being happy while gay. Alas, the problem is with Koreans themselves being homophobic. As for the "bubble" you cite, it's we in BL land who live in a bubble cuz we see gays free to express themselves in all these K-BL's which is simply not true to life.

It got no attention here from international fans, but I read reviews and I'm pleased to say that it did very well in Japan. The cast all got rave reviews and some awards. All in all, the Japanese are so good at showing the seamy, depraved underbelly of life as this movie did. Funny, they have one extreme in their culture where everything is portrayed as cutesy and innocently zany, but then this other extreme where it's very dark. Look at how their BL's are either innocent crap like "Mr Unlucky Has No Choice But to Kiss", or dark stuff like the Pornographer (who lies to the student), Double Mints (where they bury a body), and Cornered Mouse Dreams of Cheese (where a detective stalks and blackmails his crush into kissing him). Naturally, those deliciously dark ones are my fave BL's. I can't stand the cutesy ones.

Real is not always the stuff of drama -- especially when a film starts off right where it began. There was no journey for the character. He tried a kiss and crawled right back into the womb of mother Church where he began. This is also unnecessary because so many Christians and especially Catholics are now tolerant of homosexuality. The Pope even said that God loves gay people too. We even saw 2 characters in this show's Bible Study say this same thing, so there was room to show self acceptance among Christians. Frankly, Korean culture has more of a problem with gays at this point than Christian culture does. But the show did not really have time to show any of this, so I'd say it suffered from brevity more than anything else.

I saw Love Class and agree with your assessment. It was over the top for the tall guy to split to spare the other one pain. Um, didn't splitting actually GIVE him pain? I hate when BL's do that. But it was otherwise good. And yes, the kiss in that one was weak whereas we know it wasn't the actor's problem cuz he really brought it with this show!

Yes, they adopted homophobia from the West, as we can see in history that the Japanese Samurais were fine with being gay. The Chinese kings also had gay lovers and nobody thought twice about it.

As for milk, nobody but a child should drink it. We Americans are tricked into drinking it too much cuz the Dairy Association profits off selling it.

It did succeed in making me think. I really thought about how hard it is for people to be gay when they are (1) Christians and (2) Koreans. That's a double whammy.

BTW, did you recognize the player guy as the actor from the Strongberry BL about the cafe barrista in love with a customer whom he constantly updates for being his ideal? He'll write, "My ideal man ties his hoodie into a bow." "My ideal man wears glasses to read." "My ideal man loves sweets." It's a short but perfect BL.

I could see how one would think this, but I watched it 3 times and hence picked up on other things. But it's more than good looks. For instance, Hira says that "A person could be beautiful and I still won't love them the way I love Kiyoi." So what does he love? Well, he loves how Kiyoi expresses dominance. Consider the scene where Kiyoi crushes Yoshido, the kid who'd spilled the pail of water, and Hira said he loved Kiyoi's selfishness in this regard. Hira, you see, thought Kyoi was just trying to get him out the door to buy his ginger ale sooner (ie, being selfish), when in fact, Kiyoi was defending Hira.

Kiyoi defends Hira a lot on this show, but Hira is such a dope that he misses it every time. However, Hira certainly caught that it was because of Kiyoi that he had the strength to stand up to bullies such as Shirato. Shirato and the gang never demanded that Hira fetch shit for them after that. Hira even says "Kiyoi saved me. Before that I would just go along in the water never being seen." Well, Kiyoi helped him to be seen. All in all, those are great reasons to love Kiyoi.