Maggi64

I have not read the webtoon, but I really do think that the romance between a "boss/subordinate" will be a controversy in the show simply based on how big a deal it was for the characters in "Old Fashioned Cupcake." Did you see that?

The boss, Nozue, continually hesitated to act on his feelings by saying to himself, "I'm 39, he's29. I'm a man, and he's a man. I'm his boss and he's my subordinate. That's right, my subordinate."

Nozue would repeat the line about Togawa being his subordinate as if that were a bigger obstacle than their both being men. I read the manga sequel to Old Fashioned Cupcake and the whole plot was about how worried the boss was about dating his subordinate. Yes, "Old Fashioned Cupcake" was Japan and this is Korea, but I'm sure it has similar workplace codes.

LOL, what happened? Another shit storm after you made an innocent comment like what happened to me when I commented on the ages of virginity for Asians vis-a-vis Westerners?

Funny, I actually like the childlike sweetness of Seung Hyun -- especially cuz I'd seen him in another BL about time travelling a couple of months ago and his character was soooo different. I'm impressed by how the actor was able to give such a different performance, and to make it seem natural. Meaning, his innocence seems natural in this show. I'm actually less impressed by the guy playing Jong Chan because he does not seem to be bringing any charisma to his performance. I get that he's supposed to be a "cold, calm, in control boss," but that doesn't mean being stiff, as he is sometimes. I hope his character loosens up as the episodes proceed, because that is really my #1 issue with the show. I like every thing else.

I agree with you. I am American, and I once dated a coworker, but I am middle aged and this was 20 years ago before all the laws changed about "sexual harassment" and the "Me Too Movement." When I dated this coworker back then we tried to keep it to ourselves, but at the same time, we were not really afraid if people knew.

Nowadays, however, men are terrified to pay romantic interest to coworkers. One guy told me that he will not even stand in the coffee room alone with a woman for fear that she might say that he did something inappropriate and he won't have a witness. So he'll race out if a woman enters unless other people happen to be there too as "witnesses." I thought, wow, things have sure changed in 20 years. It's a shame because, like you said, what are people supposed to do if they fall in love and it just so happens that the other person is a coworker?

Yes, I agree that the senior colleagues may have been angry that some intern had dared to reject them when they dumped their work on him. However, the element of envy weighs even stronger because there was a scene proceeding th e karaoke bar which established this fact.

I am referring to the scene where a senior colleague gossiped in the hallway with a Project Leader. They whispered about how Jong Chan is favoring Yoo Seong, and how they better watch their backs because Jong Chan might, as they said, "Form a clique with all his fellow graduates of South Korea University." I had based my view about the colleagues feeling threatened and envious on that scene.

OK, that's it. Thank you for replying to my comment :)

I agree that he came off a bit as a "damsel in distress" in that scene. But I was willing to let it slide because his character truly is so innocent and childlike. I mean, that little boy smile he has! I'd want to rescue him too! lol.

As for the colleagues being envious, one need not "jump to the conclusion" as you say, because this fact was established in a proceeding scene where a senior colleague gossiped in the hallway with a Project Leader. They whispered about how Jong Chan is favoring Yoo Seong, and how they better watch their backs because Jong Chan might, as they said, "Form a clique with all his fellow graduates of South Korea University." That scene was pivotal for the other colleagues to feel threatened and, thus, to treat Yoo Seong like shit at the karaoke bar.

As for the drunken kiss, my only qualm was that he seemed to have suddenly sobered up very fast from the karaoke scene to the kissing scene. Also, the fact that a boss had kissed his subordinate reeks with violations of workplace ethics. But I am willing to let this fact slide as well because it happened in Ep 3, which means that the next 5 Eps will likely deal with this conflict and make it the prime drama that fuels the plot. To be clear, I have not read the manhwa so I am not certain of this, but that kiss came awfully early for an 8 Ep BL, so something has to happen in the next 5 Eps, right? :)

In fact, can someone who's read the manhwa spoil this plot point for me?

What's unique so far is that all the characters are openly gay and even belonged to an LGBT "Rainbow Club" in college. I loved the scene of them at the Rainbow Club all kicking back with beers and being proud-and-happy to be gay. It was such a relief from that BL trope, "I am not really gay, just gay for you."

Since this particular plot point came so early in the show, I am guessing that the controversy of a workplace romance between a boss and his subordinate shall become the major dramatic conflict that fuels the plot for much of the next 5 episodes. I mean, they need some sort of juicy plot for the next 5 eps, right?

Actually, that scene at the karaoke bar was crucial because it showed how Seung Hyun's colleagues were so threatened by his success at work that they pulled crap like dumping booze over his head. They were even so envious that they purposefully got him drunk so they could make a fool of him.

Moreover, it was a crucial plot point because it allowed Jong Chan to rush over to rescue Seung Hyun. This rescue, in turn, produced the next plot point -- which was so yummy that all the proceeding plot points leading up to it were certainly worth it! :)

The "Slip-And-Catch" (SAC) You Gotta Love!
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You gotta love the SAC in this show for two specific reasons. First, it did not feel fake because Seung Hyun was sloppy drunk, and it's utterly realistic for drunks to slip. Second, the couple did not merely stare at each other endlessly as they do in most BL versions of the SAC (especially the Thai BL's). Instead, it was only the end of Ep 2 and yet we already saw a SAC that produced a clear RESULT. Then (yum!) as Ep 3 progressed, we ab-so-lutely saw a result, lol. That Jong Chan ain't messing around. And we love it!

PS, it's so cool that you are a music/entertainment journalist. My graduate degree is in English, so I know how hard it is to actually develop a gainful career writing. Good for you!

I know! I was genuinely shocked by that. I even read my original comment over and over again scratching my head to see what set them off so badly. And the only thing that I may have misstated was the way Hollywood depicts exclusively unattractive people as losing their virginity late. I think I should have phrased that more carefully. Because it may have come off as me endorsing such portrayals.

I actually do NOT endorse this. To the contrary, I like it when I see people with non-traditional bodies, and/or people with disabilities enjoying healthy sexual relations on film. Alas, we tend to only see this in low budget Independent films, not big Hollywood films.

I wish I had clarified this. Otherwise, there truly was nothing else in my comment containing political value statements. Those who found such content in my comment had inserted it there themselves. In other words, they came looking for a fight in a place where there was no fire for a fight to begin with.

Ok, I'll end this here by thanking you for your helpful reply. I had specifically asked to hear from actual Asians such as yourself, so I genuinely do appreciate it.

I am a little late in replying, but again, thank you for a helpful comment. I am particularly struck by what you said here (I copy/pasted your words below):

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"I discovered most Asians, or at least the ones I met and knew, never jumped to 'racism' being to blame for a comment someone made. Instead, they just assumed the person asking was trying to learn more about their culture, and so responded appropriately."

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I also noticed this. Moreover, I think that Asians do not pull the "racist card" because they come from racially homogeneous countries. For example, the only race you will ever see onscreen in an Asian film is ASIAN. All the scenes of classrooms, workplaces, restaurants, ect., contain only Asians from their own countries. This depiction on film reflects the statistical reality of those countries -- which is, as I'd said, that they are nearly entirely racially homogeneous. You might see another race in big cities, but it is rare; and then it's only because they are tourists or businessmen on work trips (ie, they do not actually reside there fulltime). The reason that you never see other races residing there fulltime is that (unlike Europe and America), it is extremely freaking hard for foreigners to get citizenship there. For instance, South Korea will not grant you a Visa if you have something as minor as one Drunk Driving arrest.

Why is it so hard? Well, because Asian culture simply does not employ our Western ideology of "Diversity." For instance, a Western movie's depiction of a classroom or workplace will feature a myriad of different races -- White, Black, Latino, Asian, South East Asian, Arab, etc. This is because mixing all these races is part of our cultural imperative. Given the fact that the West is DEVOTED TO RACIAL DIVERSITY, it is absurd that SJW's accuse the West of racism.

Hell, the only reason we have a problem with racism in the West is because, umm, we actually HAVE a lot of different races mixing. Of course Eastern countries do not experience racism -- why would they when, largely, only their own race exists within their borders? The fact is, the West has done an amazing job with racial diversity and we should applaud ourselves instead of constantly castigating ourselves as this silly SJW's do.

So the next time some fool accuses Britain of being "racist" just toss what I just said to them, lol.

Has Virginity Lost Its Virtue? Kinsey Study Finds Adults Who Wait to Have Sex Are Stigmatized

Indiana University

19-Apr-2016 10:05 AM EDT, by Indiana University

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A recent study by researchers at the Kinsey Institute titled “Has Virginity Lost Its Virtue? Relationship Stigma Associated with Being a Sexually Inexperienced Adult,” found that people who wait to have sex are stigmatized, and also stigmatize other sexually inexperienced adults.

“While virginity prior to marriage has been historically valued, there has been a generational shift that has made premarital sexual activity the norm for young adults,” said Amanda Gesselman, a postdoctoral research fellow at Kinsey and co-author of the study. “For us, the biggest question was whether person’s level of sexual experience is it still a No. 1 value trait – something you think about when looking at a potential relationship partner? Our research shows that yes it is, but not in the same way.”

The three-part study co-authored by Gesselman, Gregory Webster at the University of Florida, and Justin Garcia, from Kinsey, was recently published in The Journal of Sex Research.

In the first part of the study, researchers asked 560 heterosexual adults ages 18 to 71 – of which, 25 percent had no sexual experience – the “normal” age for men and women to begin having sex and to express their own perceptions of how they are viewed by others based on their level of sexual experience or lack there of.

Of those surveyed, a majority indicated they regarded between the ages of 16 and 19 as the normal age for both men and women to begin having sex. According to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, the average age of sexual debut in the U.S. is 17 for both men and women.

According to the Kinsey study, those surveyed who were sexually inexperienced perceived themselves to be more stigmatized than those who were sexually experienced. The study did not look at people’s motivations for remaining sexually abstinent, such as moral or religious reasons or to what extent people divulge their sexual experiences.

“Typically, we tend to think negatively about ‘slutty’ girls or ‘promiscuous’ guys, but the virgins in our study thought they were stigmatized more,” Gesselman said.

To be clear, I also do not think there is anything "wrong" with it. My original comment never said that being a virgin at 29 was good or bad. Rather, I simply asked if it was an ACCURATE portrayal of Asian sexual habits, and not just some image that the media always portrays. This is why I specifically asked for true Asians to respond to my comment. Instead, I got only Western women replying, and they exploited my comment to show off their ability to toss around silly Social Justice lingo such as "colonialism" and "racism." Ugh.

I had never intended that comment to ignite a firestorm of controversy, since I never said that Asian ages for virginity were better or worse than the West. Ultimately, I wish I had simply googled research institutes on human sexuality such as "Masters and Johnson," and "The Kinsey Institute." Those research institutes treat questions such as mine in an objective, clinical manner rather than a political one.

Incidentally, I finally did google those institutes and discovered that the average age for losing one's virginity in both East Asia and South East Asia is mid-20's. In the West, however, one loses their virginity in their teens. In America (where I am from), the average age for losing one's virginity is 17.

I copy/pasted an article from "The Kinsey Institute" (see below) which discusses this based on their research of Americans.

Forgive me if I misstated my comment, because I do not endorse losing virginity at those ages, but simply observed that this is a fact. Moreover, it is how it is represented in Western media. I do not like how only beautiful people are shown enjoying loving, sexual relationships in Western media but, again, this is a fact. However, we occasionally see great films where people with non traditional bodies and/or disabilities have sexual relationships and I always enjoy such films. Yet these are never Hollywood films and, instead, always small budget Indy films.

LOL, I guess the 2 people who picked a fight with me (one going by the name "Ivy" and the other going by the name "BounBibleBoss"), did not like how I trounced their absurd replies, because they have both blocked me.

I clearly upset them because I cited the fact that it was East Asian countries themselves who were constantly invading and colonizing each other, and thus do not regard America as an evil Imperial Colonizer. The silly things were babbling about Western Colonialism oppressing Asia throughout this thread while utterly ignorant of the fact that East Asian countries such as Korea and China are more likely to accuse Japan of colonialism than America.

Indeed, countries like Korea still resent the Japanese because the Japanese colonized Korea in the first half of the 20st Century. Moreover, Koreans living in Japan are treated as 2nd Class Citizens to this day. The Chinese and the Japanese similarly share highly contentious relations based on a history of invasions and colonization. The Japanese also invaded Thailand during WWII, and there's no love loss between the Thais and the Japanese.

Meanwhile, Asians have no problem with Americans. Even Japan is ok with us, despite our victory over them in WWII. One reason is that it was Japan who declared war on America, and not vice versa. Another reason is that we did NOT colonize them. We occupied Japan after WWII for a short while via the Marshall Plan to help rebuild the nation's infrastructure, and then we left. Meaning, there is NO history of American colonization of Japan, nor any other Asian country for that matter. The only Western colonizer in Asia was in tiny Hong Kong, and that was by Great Britain, not America. Besides, Great Britain abdicated that rule decades ago, such that Hong Kong is now totally self-ruled.

Hence, if you asked the average Asian about American Colonization they'd be bewildered and think you meant our past colonizing of Cuba, or perhaps our ultimate intentions for Arab nations such as Iraq where we're now fighting. Because the Asians simply do not regard America as oppressing them with evil imperial colonialism.

Yet the silly things had no clue of any of this. I gather this embarrassed them because they both began to quickly delete and edit their stupid comments, and then they blocked me. I am actually pleased that they finally realized their comments were so embarrassingly ignorant that they warranted deletion and blocking me because I'm too much of a challenge for them. Good job for figuring that out Ivy and BounBibleBoss!

I'm 56, and of the generation that started this whole horrid mess where certain professors taught kids that vilifying the West is a proxy for education. So if you're 36, yes, you would've been one of the later, younger generations in college to be learning what they call "Post Structuralism" --which comes down to Anti-Western ideology.

Your generation would've been among the ones where professors taught you to label people a racist, sexist, homophobic, and colonialist with impunity. The result has been that people can no longer have proper, respectful conversations without someone pulling out those labels to vilify the other person. Consider how quickly my simple question about the different sexual habits between Asia and the West became contentious and stuffed with such terms in the subsequent replies.

There was no need for that, as those concepts had virtually no relation to the original question. Truly, I had expected statistics and/or replies with personal experience from native Asians, and was thus shocked by the hostile tone of some of the replies I got here (from non Native Asians). I genuinely thought, "How the hell did these people construe a fight out of such an innocent question?"

But maybe it's my fault. I should've just googled Masters and Johnson or The Kinsey Report to get objective research on the differences in ages for losing virginity for Asia vis-a-vis the West. Those research institutes study such objective questions without muddling the questions with politics as you and that other person here did.

Lastly, academia is now (thank god) beginning to move away from from the Anti-Western ideology with which they've educated students the last 30 years. We've seen the ill advised result (eg, the way people here instantly became hostile and tossed the labels of racist/colonialist/homophobic even though those concepts did not apply to the original topic), and, thus, there has been a backlash. In short, the movement is dying out.

Exactly, I agree down the line. I can't say their race, but whatever their race, I could absolutely tell that those 2 people were raised in the West. Because all young people in the West these days drop such terms while people raised in Asia do not.

You just stated,

"You are trying to invalidate an Asian person’s comment by saying it isn’t remotely true."

Huh? Are you even remotely capable of reading comprehension? I specifically ASKED for an Asian person's opinion. Here is a copy/paste of my original question:

"Could someone from East Asia comment on this and tell me if it's true that people remain virgins until marriage in East Asia? Or am I getting a false impression from these movies and shows?"

Please tell me how the above question, which asks an Asian their opinion, is (as you say), the opposite of asking an Asian's opinion? The absurdity of your comments is so enormous that my head hurts.

Listen, let's just cut to the chase. You came to this thread looking for a fight to show off what you thought were fashionable terms such as "colonialism" and "racism" and wanted to trounce me as someone guilty of Western Imperialism. Alas, your comment reeks of immaturity and ignorance. The fact is, people in East Asia do not commonly vilify the West for colonialism. Instead, China, Korea and Thailand have more issues with the way Japan has been invading and/or colonizing countries in East Asia throughout the 21st Century.

The Koreans still live as 2nd class citizens in Japan, and most older Koreans are still seething over Japan's colonization of Korea in the 1st half of the 21st century. Likewise, there is still resentment of historical invasion/colonization between Japan and China Ask a Chinese person and a Japanese person what they think about Nanking China, and you'll witness eyes bulging and veins throbbing as they scream at each other. Then ask that same group what they think about American colonization and they'll say, "Huh? What do you mean? You mean about how America used to colonize Cuba or something?" Because while the average Asian person might think America colonized other countries, they do not think of America as oppressing Asia with colonialism (Hong Kong, of course, was ruled by the British Kingdom, but not America). Indeed, they have no problem with America in this regard. China, Japan, and Korea are too busy blaming each other for invasions and colonizing to ever get around to complaining about Americans.

Ultimately, it seems that the inadequate professors at your college misled you on this by teaching you to call everyone a racist, sexist, homophobic, colonialist, and now you think that labeling people is the same as an education. Trust me, it is not. In short, please do not toss around terms like "colonialism" and "racism" vis-a-vis Asia until you have read about the actual history of Asia. Then come back and talk to me. Until then, I am bowing out of this convo.