Momijii

I agree with you. I get that it's sexual fantasies and such, but I don't feel good about how it's seen as an unavoidable or even necessary part of the genre.

Glad to see that at least a few of us discussing here share the same opinions. I'm also a BL-fan of 20+ years at least, though I've regularly taken long breaks from the fandom because of rape-apologists, fandom wars etc. I'm personally strongly averse to non-con and have a preference for mutually consensual romances. My personal favourite has always been couples of the same age with no age-defined power dynamics. But I also love drama, angst and dark stories, so the romances doesn't have to be perfectly harmonious or anything. A good story well-told is the most important for me. :)

Since this is my first foray into BL discussion in 10+ years or so, it's so disappointing to see other BL fans jump at any kind of criticism. I feel like the discourse has gotten worse…? In my opinon, BL doesn't _have_ to contain harmful stuff – the baseline of BL is that it's defined by being fictive stories about men loving other men after all. So having people in this forum jump at me with nasty personal attacks and claim that I'm a "baby" or "should stick to watching Disney" because I don't considering rape/non-con an intrinsic part of the genre makes me want to stop discussing.

So it's good to see you and others here actually making well-reasoned arguments and being open to discussion. :)

As far as I can see, none of us who discuss the scene in episode 2 have been demanded consequences in the very same episode. I certainly have not. We're speculating about authorial intentions, discussing how the scene was portrayed and what the story will do from now on.

I find it very awkward that you're trying to take a dig at my opinions by comparing a movie aimed at depicting real life exploitation and abuse with a story clearly made for the pleasure of the viewers. I enjoy this series, but it's not a story trying to critically examine gay relationships. Fighting Mr 2nd is dramatic, yes, but so far it's been romanticising manipulative behaviour. And that's the part that I'm criticising.

You also have a weird way of trying to dunk at me for what I wrote about what BL is. I've not tried to decide what goes into BL or not, but you did do so yourself, in your previous post.

Your arguments are veering straight into fallacies right now, with 3 of them in your last reply, and I won't interact to you any further.

I wasn't thrilled about ZSY's veiled threat/proposition to GSD in ep 1 either, but the dynamic of that scene was quite different from the one in ep 2 imo for a few reasons: GSD was first taken aback when it happened, but then he immediately fired back and thus exposed that it was an empty threat when ZSY quickly retreated. GSD is clever and he knows ZSY well – I interpreted that scene as GSD calling ZSY's bluff, while at the same time showing how he was willing to do anything to get him back.

And I think a lot of people forget or even overlooks that GSD was quite manipulative in season 1, with the video blackmail and locking ZSY in the nurse's office. He admitted himself that it wasn't only in order to distract ZSY from his broken heart, but also for himself.

So this show has been toeing the line of non-con from the beginning, but this is the first time that I felt that ZSY was actually in danger. GSD crossed the line this time, and as a viewer I want there to be consequences for his actions. ZSY should call him out for his behaviour.

Btw, I think your claim that BL stops being BL if there's no rape/non-con is pure nonsense. BL is what the authors decide to put in their stories. If they stop using stuff like that, it'll still be BL.

I think you're missing the point that a lot of us are trying to make: that the scene is shown in a romanticising way, mostly but not solely because of the choice of music. None of us know what this scene will eventually lead to, so I think all of us are waiting to see how it plays out in the story going forward. We've been discussing here and below how the way the scene was filmed and acted made us vary of what the creators intend.

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I agree with your points.

BL fans really need to be able to discuss these kinds of things! I was disappointed to see the comment section not only defending the scene in question, but also chastising commenters who are upset with the scene and/or the way it was portrayed as romantic. Can't we even have a discussion about consent in the BL community anymore, without being belittled or called names?

I'm not here to judge those who liked the scene, but I'm definitely judging those who belittle others for not liking or enjoying it. Many years ago, I barely escaped from a situation such as Shu Yi's. No details, but it definitely wasn't romantic – it was terrifying. And I have friends who weren't able to escape from similar situations. To see BL fans in this comment section act out against any kind of criticism is incredibly disappointing.

You made a good point about the chaotic camerawork also giving mixed signals and how it can be interpreted as romanticising the sexual chaos/consent greyscale of the scene. I didn't interpret the camerawork as romanticising the situation myself, but I see your point about how it can be interpreted as such because of how the rest of the scene – in particular the awful music choice – seems to lean that way.

I'm also going to keep watching the show, though with some trepidation I'll admit. Even if this turns out to be the low-water mark of Shu Yi and Shi De's fraught relationship, I really don't want the show to sweep the implications of what Shi De did to Shu Yi under the carpet. I want them to confront what happened and talk it out, no matter whether they actually went all the way or not.

More than anything, I hope the community will be able to actually discuss the show going forward, because the way some fans have reacted and behaved in this comment field is quite disappointing.

Yeah, this is unfortunately an aspect of BL fandom that hasn't changed at all... I'm so sad that younger generations of BL fans keep defending the same toxic stereotypes that made me leave the fandom once upon a time... :(

I agree with your points. I've also pointed out the awful choice of music as the worst part of the scene. At best, the creators made their music choice in bad taste, at worst, they might not even understand that they're portraying rape in that scene. Watching the scene in question with the sound on or off changes the mood completely.

There was some borderline non-con in season 1 as well, played off as Shi De being so in love that it made him do these things, so I was really nervous when I realised there'd be a 2nd season. The first episode hinted at the guys entering the grey scales of consent, but the scene in episode 2 was worse than what I'd expected.

I watched this by sheer chance, and I'm so glad that I did!I ended up liking MoD a lot, so much in fact that I had to check out Together With Me, which I enjoyed a lot as well. I remember thinking how comfortable the actors in MoD were with each other, and after watching TWM + sequel, I understand why. It was fun to go back to their roots and see how much they'd grown as actors. :)

I'm going to have to let ep 2 stew in my mind for a bit. I'm really torn about it.

I thought the controversial scene at the end had some interesting aspects, like the messy camerawork reflecting Shi De's emotional state. It fits well with some of the previous creative storytelling aspects of previous episodes, like present-time Shi De walking straight into his own flashback or Shu Yi and Shi De looking in each other's direction despite being in different locations in the episode previous to this. I think this kind of creative camerawork is one of the stronger aspects of this show.

Shi De's actor getting drunk before filming the scene – importantly with permission from those involved – isn't a problem for me. I think viewers need to be more aware that it's incredibly tough on actors to have to act through troubling scenes like this one. I've read enough interviews with actors about how they are affected psychologically when filming rape scenes and it's clear to me that it's even tougher on them than us viewers. If the actors need a stiff drink before the scene to make it work and feel real, then let them have it, as long as all involved are ok with it.

As for the contents of the scene in question, there's a HUGE issue about consent between Shi De and Shu Yi in their encounter. I'm not against love stories about dark topics – in fact, I prefer dark stories. BUT the creators of such stories must be aware of what kind of stories they are telling. I'm not sure that the entire Fighting Mr 2nd team does that, not completely. On one hand, the messy camerawork and the actors certainly suggest that they did understand what kind of scene they were filming, and I think those aspects did a good job with portraying the awfulness of the situation.

But on the other hand we have that AWFUL choice of music during the scene. Who inside their production crew thought that it was a good choice to put violin music to a non-con-borderline-rape scene? We see Shi De repeatedly dragging Shu Yi back into the house, cover his mouth and push him back into the couch when the latter tries to get away. The music should have reflected Shu Yi's perspective, because even if he choses to go with it at the end, he clearly didn't chose to initiate a sexual encounter. As for him going with it, we don't know yet if it was to protect himself from violence (unfortunately this is actually common with sexual violence) or if he actually wanted to sleep with Shi De.

I think to me as a viewer, it all comes down to how the story (or rather, the production crew, writer, actors, etc intend to handle the aftermath of this scene going forward. I'm not convinced Shi De and Shu Yi actually went all the way, but if they did, I want to see them talk it out and see if and how they can move forward, now that the cards are on the table. But in case the story just choses to ignore that it just put sweet violin music to a borderline rape scene, then I'm going to lose all confidence in the creator's ability to understand what kind of story they're actually telling.

What is the benefit of that strategy, if I may ask? It feels weird to me that they don't promote their expensive shows.

Me too, blue skies and cloud formations makes me think of travelling, and with the timing it seems like the most likely explanation. :)

Thank you for keeping us updated Alice! I've only been waiting for The Wolf for a couple of months since discovering The Untamed while isolating at home, can't even imagine how much you and other long-time fans must have had your patience tried again and again. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your updates.

Also, as a (new) fan of his, it's so nice to see Xiao Zhan's illustrations! I'm glad that he's able to combine his interest and talent in illustration and graphic graphic design with his current career. And I feel that he'll go stronger out of the backlash because of his inner strength and positive attitude (while not discounting how much it must have hurt him privately of course). I also feel stronger when I see him fighting back with creativity, intelligence and compassion.

Btw, I may have found this drama because of Xiao Zhan (and kept waiting for it because I love werewolves!!!), but I'm also genuinely excited to (hopefully soon) watch Darren Wang and Li Qin for the first time.

I'm really looking forward to The Wolf. I've been checking this page regularly for news of when the drama is expected to arrive and I really hope that it will be released without further delays. I'm a bit worried about the censorship and reshoots as mentioned in previous comments – not because I'm a fan of bloody/gory movies (quite the opposite) – but because of how such cuts might negatively affect pacing, etc. Still, I'm a longtime fan of werewolf stories and I have never seen/read a Chinese take on those before so fingers crossed that the drama will be good!