In my opinion yes, regardless of Karleen's past trauma if she harbors some sort of distaste or prejudice against…
Yeah no problem, discussions like these are very eye-opening. Pardon me but there are a couple more things I just really have to reply to in your comment here. Some of this may sound a bit harsh but please don't take it personally, as I'm honestly just a bit upset with the examples you used in your previous comment.
First and foremost I want to discuss the similar yet different ways gay and bi people are prejudiced against. Yes, the frivolous and or sl*tty issue is something that gay men especially also tend to face in society, but being honest I think it's a bit different than the kind that bi people face. The kind of prejudice that gay people face when stereotyped as "sl*tty" often comes from mostly ignorant straight/homophobic people. On the flip side, the kind that bi people face tends to come from both spectrums of straight/homophobic, but also from queer folks who are prejudiced as well. I don't mention this as some sort of "victim game", I just wanted to mention this since I feel like what you said was very lightly trying to redirect instead of addressing the issues and prejudice bi people face at hand.
Secondly, I'm sorry but I really can't let your vague comparison of bi people to abusers slide by. Comparing having prejudiced biphobia, (being biphobic doesn't solely rely on "hating" bi people, being discriminatory/prejudiced towards them does as well) to not wanting to date someone who shares traits with your abuser is so off the mark that personally appalls me. Harboring prejudice against bi people is not the same as being afraid of someone with similarities to your abuser, as the only "similar" trait in a bi person's case would be their sexual orientation. The issue there though is that bi people come in a multitude of shapes, sizes, and races, with the only shared thing being that they are bi, which isn't something that should frighten someone... unless they're discriminatory, whereas your comparison with abusers relies solely on them sharing physical traits that could be harmful or triggering for an abuse victim. There isn't a matter of "making the best decision for yourself" like that of an abuse victim choosing not to be with someone similar to their abuser when talking about a biphobic mindset, because that specifically revolves around stereotyping and discrimination rather than protecting. Again, not all bi people are the same, and they definitely aren't all that stereotypes make them out to be.
I'm not trying to invalidate the feelings of those who've been cheated on by bi folks before, but what I'm saying is that no matter how you look at it, harboring a prejudice towards all bi people collectively because of one bad experience is nothing short of biphobic, no matter how harsh that may sound. That's not to say that people in those situations are terrible or anything, they've gone through something terrible, and have gained an outlandish and awful mindset because of it. Luckily though, people are able to change. In conclusion, my humble opinion is that holding prejudiced or harmful ideas towards bi people, regardless of why, is being biphobic.
I'm terribly sorry if this sounds harsh, but the comparison of bi people to abusers rubbed me in a very wrong way. Abusers are toxic individuals that ruin people's lives, and comparing people with discriminatory biphobia to abuse victims sounds very harmful. Bi people as a collective cannot and should not be compared to abusers, even loosely. Not all bi people are terrible, all abusers are.
My apologies for being very harsh towards your examples, but again thank you for having this discussion. It's very interesting seeing a range of varying opinions and stories.
In my opinion yes, regardless of Karleen's past trauma if she harbors some sort of distaste or prejudice against…
Hello! Sure, I don't mind giving my opinion on this. It's a bit of a hard topic to maneuver but I think I understand what you're trying to say.
In the first instance you mentioned, yes I totally agree. If your straight friend was very open and kind about turning you down without sharing a hint of any disgusted or discriminatory remarks I would never count that as being homophobic. A polite rejection due to a difference in sexual orientations does not immediately become homophobic just because it is a rejection. There needs to be some sort of discriminatory element at play. There's of course a difference between a person who gently lets you down and someone who profusely curses at you or gives you a couple of nasty side-eyes and strange comments.
In regards to your second question, I'd have to say again, it ultimately comes down to if there is any kind of prejudice or discrimination at play. A general stereotype that bi folks tend to deal with is that since they have "more options" they are "more likely to be frivolous, sl*tty, and cheat". If a gay person doesn't want to date bisexuals simply because they assume that they'll be more likely to cheat, that is perpetuating a biphobic stereotype. In the case of the show for example, assuming that Karleen has had a negative past experience with someone who was bi because they cheated on her, if she harbors that stereotypical mindset and swears off dating bi people as a whole specifically because of it, then she is perpetuating a biphobic stereotype, and is therefore being biphobic, even if she is oblivious to her behavior due to her past trauma. I think your comparison between a straight person turning down a gay person vs. a gay person turning down a bi person honestly doesn't really work due to a general difference in sexual orientations. A straight person (hopefully who isn't homophobic) will turn down a gay person because their sexual orientations do not line up. A gay person turning down a bi person on the other hand can stem from only a handful of things, either they just aren't into the person, which is totally fine and valid, or they don't date bi people out of a stereotypical fear that they are frivolous or will cheat. They could also be somehow disgusted with their sexuality, which I don't think I really need to explain how exactly that's biphobic. If someone has trauma of course it's a bit harder to get rid of that stereotype, but I think it ultimately just takes time and understanding that not all people are the same, including bi folks. Any scumbag can cheat, regardless of sexuality.
I hope that was cohesive enough to make sense and helped clear some things up. Thank you for the discussion!
While I understand your situation and completely respect your choice based on your past experiences, I would really…
Thank you, and I'm sorry for replying that under something so personal for you. I've just personally heard a lot of not so great people use that phrasing in my life and I found it to be a bit upsetting is all. I wish you luck in love and hope you're able to enjoy this show!
I liked it!I'm going to say that, as a gay guy who has dated bisexual men (and even had an actual relationship…
While I understand your situation and completely respect your choice based on your past experiences, I would really like to urge you not use the phrasing "I have *insert minority group* friends here so that makes it ok!" Not that your decision or feelings are wrong or anything, but it's just a really harmful phrase that a lot of ignorant folks tend to use to hide their bigotry. Again, not saying that your experiences and feelings are invalid, it's just a really harmful phrasing to use. Hope you have a lovely day!
So before I ask, I'd like to state that my questions come from honestly just wanting to understand the issue of…
In my opinion yes, regardless of Karleen's past trauma if she harbors some sort of distaste or prejudice against bi women because of her past that would still count as being bi-phobic. Of course if there's a reason for it that makes it more understandable, but understandable doesn't necessarily translate to "ok". Just because she has had a bad experience in the past doesn't give her the right to act the way she did with pearl, not listening to her and questioning her feelings, telling her that this will damage their friendship and that it's HER fault for confessing, etc. Honestly, if she just said no and stated she wasn't interested in her it would've been totally fine, but she clearly expressed mixed feelings and distaste towards Pearl confessing simply because she may bi. I understand being hesitant with her because she's never dated a woman before, but there's a better way to have that conversation than, "I don't date straight OR bi girls, period." It not only disregards Pearl's feelings entirely, but robs her of an extremely important conversation that could help her learn about and better express her newfound thoughts towards her sexuality.
Edit: Oop almost missed your second portion! In my opinion that doesn't sound like much of a specific "phobia" but rather just a general fear. I think in that scenario it's important to recognize the difficult situations that both people could be in. For example, the person in the closet may not feel like it's the right time to come out yet because of a super religious family, or they may be afraid of any prejudice that will come their way. On the other hand, it could still be rough on the person who is already out, especially if they're the type of person who wants to proudly be in a relationship regardless of how ignorant folks feel. In that scenario though, I still think it's important to give the person in the closet some time to manage and think about their situation first and foremost. The person already out doesn't have much to fear since they've already gone down that road, but the coming out experience is different for each person. So in short, I'd say it's more of a rational fear than a "phobia", and that it's important to take other people's experiences and situations into account first before becoming sad or frustrated with their reluctance to come out. If they've had a bad experience with a partner in the past who was afraid to come out, I think it's best to just be open and try to understand where the other person is coming from. Not that it's always that simple and easy of course. Hope that made sense!
I totally agree with you on all couples. You couldn't have said it better. I am pretty sure that Bohn just fell…
I really do hope that's the case, because honestly while I see what they're trying to accomplish by bringing up the conversation of "top and bottom stereotypes" and how they're incorrect, if they choose to go about that by having Bohn basically be taken advantage of while he's drunk and then just suddenly "getting over it" for whatever reason, that just WILL NOT sit right with me whatsoever. It's like trading in one good message for another terrible BL trope.
First and foremost I want to discuss the similar yet different ways gay and bi people are prejudiced against. Yes, the frivolous and or sl*tty issue is something that gay men especially also tend to face in society, but being honest I think it's a bit different than the kind that bi people face. The kind of prejudice that gay people face when stereotyped as "sl*tty" often comes from mostly ignorant straight/homophobic people. On the flip side, the kind that bi people face tends to come from both spectrums of straight/homophobic, but also from queer folks who are prejudiced as well. I don't mention this as some sort of "victim game", I just wanted to mention this since I feel like what you said was very lightly trying to redirect instead of addressing the issues and prejudice bi people face at hand.
Secondly, I'm sorry but I really can't let your vague comparison of bi people to abusers slide by. Comparing having prejudiced biphobia, (being biphobic doesn't solely rely on "hating" bi people, being discriminatory/prejudiced towards them does as well) to not wanting to date someone who shares traits with your abuser is so off the mark that personally appalls me. Harboring prejudice against bi people is not the same as being afraid of someone with similarities to your abuser, as the only "similar" trait in a bi person's case would be their sexual orientation. The issue there though is that bi people come in a multitude of shapes, sizes, and races, with the only shared thing being that they are bi, which isn't something that should frighten someone... unless they're discriminatory, whereas your comparison with abusers relies solely on them sharing physical traits that could be harmful or triggering for an abuse victim. There isn't a matter of "making the best decision for yourself" like that of an abuse victim choosing not to be with someone similar to their abuser when talking about a biphobic mindset, because that specifically revolves around stereotyping and discrimination rather than protecting. Again, not all bi people are the same, and they definitely aren't all that stereotypes make them out to be.
I'm not trying to invalidate the feelings of those who've been cheated on by bi folks before, but what I'm saying is that no matter how you look at it, harboring a prejudice towards all bi people collectively because of one bad experience is nothing short of biphobic, no matter how harsh that may sound. That's not to say that people in those situations are terrible or anything, they've gone through something terrible, and have gained an outlandish and awful mindset because of it. Luckily though, people are able to change. In conclusion, my humble opinion is that holding prejudiced or harmful ideas towards bi people, regardless of why, is being biphobic.
I'm terribly sorry if this sounds harsh, but the comparison of bi people to abusers rubbed me in a very wrong way. Abusers are toxic individuals that ruin people's lives, and comparing people with discriminatory biphobia to abuse victims sounds very harmful. Bi people as a collective cannot and should not be compared to abusers, even loosely. Not all bi people are terrible, all abusers are.
My apologies for being very harsh towards your examples, but again thank you for having this discussion. It's very interesting seeing a range of varying opinions and stories.
In the first instance you mentioned, yes I totally agree. If your straight friend was very open and kind about turning you down without sharing a hint of any disgusted or discriminatory remarks I would never count that as being homophobic. A polite rejection due to a difference in sexual orientations does not immediately become homophobic just because it is a rejection. There needs to be some sort of discriminatory element at play. There's of course a difference between a person who gently lets you down and someone who profusely curses at you or gives you a couple of nasty side-eyes and strange comments.
In regards to your second question, I'd have to say again, it ultimately comes down to if there is any kind of prejudice or discrimination at play. A general stereotype that bi folks tend to deal with is that since they have "more options" they are "more likely to be frivolous, sl*tty, and cheat". If a gay person doesn't want to date bisexuals simply because they assume that they'll be more likely to cheat, that is perpetuating a biphobic stereotype. In the case of the show for example, assuming that Karleen has had a negative past experience with someone who was bi because they cheated on her, if she harbors that stereotypical mindset and swears off dating bi people as a whole specifically because of it, then she is perpetuating a biphobic stereotype, and is therefore being biphobic, even if she is oblivious to her behavior due to her past trauma. I think your comparison between a straight person turning down a gay person vs. a gay person turning down a bi person honestly doesn't really work due to a general difference in sexual orientations. A straight person (hopefully who isn't homophobic) will turn down a gay person because their sexual orientations do not line up. A gay person turning down a bi person on the other hand can stem from only a handful of things, either they just aren't into the person, which is totally fine and valid, or they don't date bi people out of a stereotypical fear that they are frivolous or will cheat. They could also be somehow disgusted with their sexuality, which I don't think I really need to explain how exactly that's biphobic. If someone has trauma of course it's a bit harder to get rid of that stereotype, but I think it ultimately just takes time and understanding that not all people are the same, including bi folks. Any scumbag can cheat, regardless of sexuality.
I hope that was cohesive enough to make sense and helped clear some things up. Thank you for the discussion!
Edit: Oop almost missed your second portion! In my opinion that doesn't sound like much of a specific "phobia" but rather just a general fear. I think in that scenario it's important to recognize the difficult situations that both people could be in. For example, the person in the closet may not feel like it's the right time to come out yet because of a super religious family, or they may be afraid of any prejudice that will come their way. On the other hand, it could still be rough on the person who is already out, especially if they're the type of person who wants to proudly be in a relationship regardless of how ignorant folks feel. In that scenario though, I still think it's important to give the person in the closet some time to manage and think about their situation first and foremost. The person already out doesn't have much to fear since they've already gone down that road, but the coming out experience is different for each person. So in short, I'd say it's more of a rational fear than a "phobia", and that it's important to take other people's experiences and situations into account first before becoming sad or frustrated with their reluctance to come out. If they've had a bad experience with a partner in the past who was afraid to come out, I think it's best to just be open and try to understand where the other person is coming from. Not that it's always that simple and easy of course. Hope that made sense!