Mystelumiere

Oh yes, fully with you on this. I actually don't blame FL character fully. My initial comment criticized FL & ML's character settings.

Li Ni is literally a saint in this drama. Too much of a saint, if you ask me.

It's just that I feel WoL has it overboard. FL literally can do no wrong and also suffers zero consequences. No apologies, no remorse, no regrets.

At least in many other dramas, FLs do suffer consequences and show regret/remorse, and if done well, a very good tearbreaking scene.
Also, adding to what you said, most 2FLs or other supporting FLs who are ML's love interests are usually UNFAIRLY portrayed with many flaws or develop such flaws. Scheming/underhand, questionable morality, sociopath, etc. etc.

LOLOLOL...

"why can't she be ruthless and also be a moral character; she used underhanded tactics from the first time she met ml, so what made you said she's not the same character as she was before."

So what character is she? What you just described and admitted, is that the character is NOT properly defined.

"What I understand is you're putting your own value into this character who has totally different experiences than you do"

Again, I did not. I am merely interpreting what the drama unfolds from an OBJECTIVE viewpoint.

"who loss her mother at a young age and was raised by her father, so she didn't have a female figure in her life. Who has to dress up as a male to hide her identity from the outside world, who only experienced battles and deaths."

Pray tell how this affects her choice of actions then?

"Also why can't she be rational and also emotional when losing someone she cares about"

I just explained, she is raised in an army. Especially in that era, deaths are common. Yes, you can grieve. But a brother who literally "REPAID KINDESS WITH EVIL".
You say you put yourself in her shoes. So I guess if you own brother betrays and kills his lifesaver, but wasn't saved by this lifesaver a second time, you are gonna grieve like crazy?

"Or get angry when the man she loves choose to stand on the side while she was in danger"

So you are in her shoes. You literally played with the feelings of the love of your life. Again, with a kiss on the cheek to win a bet to let your army pass. Is this not literally FAFO?
Li Ni has been sincere with this feelings from the beginning. Cui Lin has not, even messing with Li Ni's feelings multiple times. Yet, when he doesn't trust her, its HIS fault? (Yup, no issue with the script right?)

"she reacted so strongly since to her lini is her first love, and she doesn't know how to handle her feelings to him."

I'm returning this to you: "What I understand is you're putting your own value into this character who has totally different experiences than you do"
How do you know she doesn't know how to handle her feelings to him? I think the whole drama has shown the contrary very clearly. Especially how confident she is portrayed to be.

My last reply to you. Can't have a healthy discussion with someone so blind with bias.

Re: the simping part.

I am ok with simping, but just felt that the background of the ML in WoL should not be a simp, but somehow is portrayed to be simping. (i.e. written out of character)

Why I felt so:
1st incident: After finding out that FL lied about her status to throw him off during the negotiation for military rations. He did not question any of previous affections and even future ones. (the additional key is that, FL obviously knows ML likes her, otherwise this tactic would not work. I would have accepted it if FL has absolutely zero interest in ML at this point)
Additional add-on incident 1: kissed him on the cheek to win the bet to let their army pass (yeah, as a drama, this is cute. it is like saying: "I like you, so let me win", but objectively, adding the previous lies into context. AND i believe this was like, the end of the same episode or next episode?
Additional add-on incident 2: faked reconciliation to "escape" from ML.

So with so many emotional manipulations, ML continues to shower her with love...

2nd incident: betrayal of 2ML. 2 issues: loss of trust and intentionally not saving 2ML.
Loss of trust: excuse me woman, what have you done in the past to earn that trust exactly? BECAUSE you like him and he likes you? But did you not multiple times used his feelings for you to get an upper hand? (note, the above incident). And you pout about it... (kind of off-topic about simping, but... this is literally FAFO in my opinion. just that the drama doesn't portray her bearing ANY form of responsibility or repercussion of the FO part)
Intentionally not saving 2ML: excuse me woman, he just did one of the most treacherous thing in period drama. repaying kindess (saved his life) with evil (betraying and killing half of ML's army). ML has all the rights to execute him AFTER saving him a second time. Not saving him would have been better.
Adding that up, FL pouted about all that for an entire episode (weeks or months-equivalent in the drama, who knows). If I were ML, I would have given her a tight slap TBH. And... ML continues to simp...
(Here is why I was also annoyed. If ML had just said fk it, and gave up on FL, it would have a proper FO out of it. She could show remorse or grew from her mistakes and they could get back together, but nope. No repercussion at all)

3rd incident: same as 2nd incident. ML literally locks her up... don't think i need to explain about the simping huh...

Oh I definitely agree with you. Drama is more or less fantasy.
I think you mean more of the "one and only love" trope. I agree. I don't think I have ever seen a drama where the ML changes his choice in a "free world".

I think it is simply down to what you say. Most viewers are female. Dedicated ML, not giving up. ML chasing the FL wholeheartedly. etc. etc.
I think also because dramas are now alot shorter than in the past (60~hundred episodes).

Will reply the spoiler version in a separate post.

"What I meant is you applying your modern thinking onto the fl"

Firstly, interpreting a character as being written out of character has nothing to do with modern thinking. It is based on the "world building" first few episodes & then what happens after. Is it consider a character growth, or think or does the character do something that seems odd.

Secondly, I'm sorry to say, it is you who is doing this, as you currently obviously have bias towards the drama.
I actually think I'm more conservative than liberal. BUT... it is also more modern thinking that it is OKAY for women to mess with men's feelings. (If you actually like that person, and not manipulating for some other goal) BTW, this doesn't apply to the incident I mentioned, and also to the other incidents down the road in the drama (which I did not watch).
Name me one other PERIOD drama with such a romance, where the FL emotionally manipulates the ML (that isn't due to being threatened with someone's live or some major/critical plot device) and they still end up togther.


"who's a commander in an army"
You keep saying this, care to explain how this affects CHARACTER? You mentioned that being so, you think of your own faction/army first. I don't disagree. What I did not like was the METHODOLOGY. Which indirectly translates to the CHARACTER.
A commander in an army can have his/her own morals and character. In any competitive event, you can choose to utilize scummy tactics or not.
I have been talking things about how this character is supposedly"righteous", "intelligent", "rational", and you keep bringing up things like, military, commander, brought up as a man, etc.
So... you admit that the FL is basically ruthless, capable of using underhand tactics, but at that same time is a righteous person who wants to save the world from a tyrant?
That the FL is intelligent and extremely rational, but loses all rationality at times? Especially when someone close dies? Even though she is brought up like a man IN the military (where anyone can die anytime)?

"The script is off for you maybe because you can't accept such an fl that breaks the standard mole of what an fl should be like, or the ml who breaks the standard mole of ml because he's not ambitious and instead is understanding and kind characteristics that are usually written for female characters."

No. You obviously haven't been reading my posts fully. I SAID I like the concept of the story. I like how the characters are described and built in the drama descriptions AND the first 2~5 episodes. I DIDN'T like how the characters de-railed from this.

You may not have noticed, but you are literally grasping at straws trying to say "no, you are wrong. I love this drama and it is flawless".
You go you. I am not going to change my mind. I may one day come back to finish it up. But I'm just being objective in my own ways.

"This is common fl having more than one male"
Pretty sure this is in most dramas, Korean, Japanese, Thai, etc.
Love triangle or even reverse harem.

"ml simping"
Erm... MALE LEAD simping? I've seen many SML or support characters simping, but don't think I have seen many ML simping. Simping as in real simping, and not the "guy woos girl" process.
Pray tell give me an example of a chinese drama with a male lead simp. Heard SOKP is one, but I have not watched it yet.

"You're applying your own thinking onto the fl"

And... you aren't?

I already said, we can agree to disagree.
Everyone has their own interpretation of the character and the story, in the first few episodes commonly known as "world building".

You see it your way. I see mine. I don't see what is the point of you defending what I consider a badly written script. And I can even tell you that I actually really like the concept of this drama. And I also love Jing Tian.

Personally think that many who felt the chemistry of the leads were off were because of the script itself. I actually felt the "chemistry" wasn't bad, but scripting made it feel off.

Oh man... are we watching different shows?
Or is this your first time watching period dramas? In period dramas, often at times there is not declaration of love and the relationship usually grows with small events or gestures.

"fl is written as someone who is rational"

So rational FL gives her mum's hairpin to ML. This is a big gesture. I am not sure how to translate this, but it can be considered a kind of 定情信物 (token of love). Notice how the drama emphasised how important this hairpin is to her, and everyone including the father (later on) was either shocked or surprised when they found out she gave it to Li Ni.

Despite being "potential enemies" (or even potential allies), our FL decides that ML is the love of her life. The person who also made FL change her mind about marriage.

Up until that negotiation, despite the both of them trying to up-one the other, their growing feelings were obvious and trust was building up.
And "rational" FL decides to FAFO (sadly without the FO) by messing with feelings. AGAIN, like a broken record, its the methodology issue. One-upping the ML by a game of wits would have been healthy. And the drama just sweeps the seriousness of it under the carpet by FL claiming that ML isn't worthy of her if he doesn't see through this.
For me this is a simple value issue here. Regardless of being enemies etc., if you truly like someone, you don't mess with their feelings. You can mess with each other in different methods, or simply a game of wits, but not with feelings.

If you have seen other period dramas, the "messing with feelings" or "lying about feelings" is a big trope and is usually only overcome with the affected party finding out/understanding the reason (huge circumstances or to protect the each other).

Sorry, can't be bothered discussing with the second incident.

But we can agree to disagree. If you like the show, by all means, enjoy it.

The wrist support is an interesting way to interpret.
But still standing with ML's POV, the fault still lies with FL intentionally not clarifying things up.
I'm still able to convince myself that anyone, not matter how intelligent or calculative, can so easily recover emotional trust after having been shitted on (unless a simp/doormat).
Trust was already shakey to begin with, and they were slowly building emotional trust. When ML realized he was messed with so as to be distracted during the negotiation, he would have attributed previous romantic interactions etc, to be part of the act, no?

That is why, to me, yes you can be jealous and warfare and screw each other in WITS. But the methodology is just...

I haven't gotten to that stage, but have already read spoilers on those parts too, hence, even less motivation to continue.

Personally, an am also a great fan of Jing Tian. I don't see this as casting issue or acting skill issue. As you mentioned, this is ultimately very bad story writing. And her character isn't even supposed to be a "damsel in distress" LOL

You can easily say it this way because you are in the viewer's POV. You SEE everything.
Put yourself in Li Ni's shoes. You like her, but you realized after the negotiation that she was messing with you to distract you and get an upper hand in the negotiation. Trust (in terms of feelings, normal trust here was shakey to begin with) already lost here. Any previous romantic interactions should have all been cancelled out. You would naturally also be on your guard for any future interactions. If you think otherwise, I believe in modern terms, it is called being a doormat.

And I don't disagree that Cui Lin would have gave everything for her own side. It is the method that is very questionable, especially for her character. (morally-right, non-scummy, intelligent and thinks of the bigger picture)

For the betrayal part: AGAIN you are voicing this out because you see it in the point of the viewer.
Again, in Li Ni's shoes. This lady has double-crossed you numerous times. EVEN willing to play with your feelings to just to get an upper hand. AND you think you have the rights to be angry because you were not trusted?

When she was locked up by Li Ni, she was grieving, yes. But you are wrong on the your understanding. She wasn't angry because Li Ni risked her safety. She was angry because she knew Li Ni was there and intentionally ONLY saved her and not LCF. Quoting her as saying "you should also have left me to die" (something along this lines, I can't be bothered to go back to check, and I also watched it fully in Mandarin, no subs). This is why I said this is extremely out of character.

Also, despite being family and on the same side as LCF, he has obviously done a very wrong and immoral thing. Literally betrayed and killed half the troops of the army who saved your life, WHILE colluding with the enemy you swore to take down. AND... she saw nothing wrong with it. Merely scolded LCF that he did not consult with her. I guess most viewers are desensitized to the seriousness of this because this "half of Li Ni's army" aren't even supporting characters or even appear on screen.

Now, go back to their roots, on why she decide to came out of their base camp, to bring order to the chaos and take down the usurper.

Feel free to compare Cui Lin's "supposed character", to the Empress. The Empress even risks her own life just to poison the man whom she still has feelings for, knowing where she stands (as a member of the royal family) and also that this man did a very evil thing and has to be stopped.

To finish this, I will say that I won't even start with how many times Cui Lin becomes the damsel in distress issue.

EDIT: Just gonna add one more thing:
You say this: "it's only because they love each other that's why they're willing to work it out and forgive and understanding each other's pain."

The first incident I mentioned, Cui Lin never apologized, showed no remorse nor gave any crap that she was playing with emotional trust (with a person she liked and identified as the one man she would marry)
Here, we saw the Li Ni ALMOST gave back the hairpin. Yes, Cui Lin doesn't know, but she is supposed to be very smart, intelligent and calculative. Guess she went out of character and didn't "see" this.
And, iirc, it just kind of ended as "oh, you realized it was a lie, haha". How is this working it out together?

Second incident: it was implied she feigned understanding and apologized... then what did she do next? gave the wrist support, triggered the hidden needle and tried to run away.
After getting caught, she quickly resumed her cold (albeit not as cold) demeanor. Only when it was decided that Li Ni would return her to her father, did she suddenly think "oh, so we are gonna separate soon", went to Wonderland and things suddenly became romantic.
Again, where is this working together.

To me, everything just suddenly gets resolved and its happily ever after. How is this not fake and superficial?

I'm currently on hold at episode 23 and I couldn't take it anymore.
Was so annoyed with how the story drives the ML and FL both out of character so many times just to "advance" the story.

What out of character?
ML starts showing he is actually a doormat and simping on the FL.
FL starts showing she is just an immature brat.

Let me explain: (spoiler alert)

Early on when FL lied to ML about being 2ML's concubine to distract him in the negotiations. This is literally playing with ML's feelings, knowing that ML likes her, and she herself kind of acknowledge that ML is "the one" for her. If this isn't a scummy "strategy", I don't know what you call this. Personally, this is crossing the boundary for me.

Firstly, ML wasn't even offended by this. Having found out that the person you like just played with your feelings, how would you know that any reciprocal affection from FL (past or future) would be similarly playing with your feelings just to gain an advantage on you?
Secondly, FL just kind of "oh, you finally found out huh" after. No apologies, no remorse.

Later on, 2ML starts turning Delulu and decides to betray ML's army by colluding with their sworn enemy AFTER the ML saved his life. They get ambushed yet again, this ML intentionally only saved FL.
After 2ML apparently "dies", FL pouts for several episodes.

Lady, I don't care if the 2ML is your dog, cat, "brother", husband or father. This guy literally did the unthinkable by betraying the person/army who JUST saved his and your life, by colluding with your sworn enemy, and killing half of their army. And ML's army may be a threat but only a "potential enemy".
Think you (FL) would forgive the ML if he did the same thing to you and the Cui army? Even if ML had saved 2ML in that 2nd ambush, he has all the rights to execute 2ML to "avenge" for the death of half his army.
So just because this person is your dog, cat, "brother", husband, father or whatever, they can do whatever, even if it is against morals, as long as you are in the same team? So much for the initial goal of wanting to save the world by defeating the usurper. And so much for being that super intelligent and mature strategist FL.
Let's not even start with how she later then just decides that "she has thought it through" and forgives the ML just like that (after pouting for so many episodes) and continues liking him.

Don't know how others can actually continue watching after these 2 big plot issues, but I personally could not stand it anymore. Relationship between the leads just felt very fake and superficial.

One day I might continue watching and finish it, but right now I just can't bring myself to carry on.

Same here. And I'm only at episode 23 of WoL.
Let's not even forget that the initial few episodes showed the FL out-smarting the ML many times. Yet when she is "damsel-in-distress"-mode, she becomes useless & powerless.

Another thing that annoyed me was the constant use of ridiculous plot devices to keep driving the ML & FL apart, just to create needless heartbreaking storyline.
Actually found myself wanting the ML to return the damn hairpin numerous times in the story. Especially the part where FL played with ML's feelings just to one-up him in a negotiation. Not only was she nonapologetic, didnt even try to resolve the "misunderstanding"/lie after she "won" and was still super proud of what she did.