StonePlants

Yup. Light is a song from the next to normal musical. And a lot of the scenes here are kinda of based off that musical such as the other song where she leaves her family.

Yes, DID is an actual diagnosis based on the psychoanalytic theory. But what she has is likely not DID. DID is a very complex diagnosis with even more complex treatment strategies. Rather, they are using this "diagnosis" to make a point about personalities and the negotiation between personal/private (safe-ish) and public (open to scrutiny) personalities.

Or maybe you are trying to say that they are using it to make a point about the conscious and unconscious parts of personality? Like in the theory? I admit, I don't think that the psychoanalytic theory is very empirical. I rather look at the Erickson theories. :)

To the person here (two world season 2?) who has been noting the colours, lights, etc in this show. You may want to refer to the analysis of the musical, next to normal. They have used similar costume, background colours, etc. The light that is appearing in the episode is likely a dramatisation of the last song "Light".
We need some light/ First of all, we need some light/ You can't sit here in the dark/ And all alone, it's a sorry sight/ It's just you and me/ We'll live, you'll see
Night after night/ We'd sit and wait for the morning light/ But we've waited far too long/ For all that's wrong to be made right

The storyline in Dear Hyeri (DH) seems to be an attempt at interpreting how things might have been different in N2N. In there, the FL has bipolor - developed it after her love child with her husband dies due to doctor negligence, the husband of 18 years is in denial of the death, the daughter is caught in the middle of the breakdowns, the daughter's classmate likes her but she tries to push him away because she might inherit her mother's propensity for mental illness. It was an effective portrayal of mental illness and the struggles of everyone involved.

In DH, EH is based off FL, HO is based off the husband, Hyeri is the daughter character and JY is the daughter's boyfriend. However, unlike N2N, the focus in this show doesn't seem to be mental illness - despite what it says. It's more a critique of having a core personality that can be assessed by a non-psychometric tool like MBTI and suggests that people can have multiplicity of personalities - as theorised by the situational theories of personality. An example: walking down a dark deserted street at night, if from the corner of our eyes we spot a person whose identity we don't know, we will likely become cautious, fumble for our hidden weapon or phone to call for help. However, if we replace that person with a cute little kitten, or puppy, we will likely be friendly, stop to see if it needs help.

LJH is based off a real interpreter that was in China with crown prince and Hyojong. He lived through the persecution (with both of the princes' help) and died at age 80+ with 11 children. He was from a distinguished line of interpreters. His cousin (niece or maybe sister - i cannot remeber sorry) became the favoured concubine 2 or 3 kings down. He is famous in Korean history....but as far as I've seen, write ups about him are either in Korean, or in English academic papers. So, I don't think they changed the ending as they followed history with added dramatisation.

The story also juxtaposed flexibility in character and bigotry (or inflexibility in character). The powerful king and LJH's father were bigots, with the war and its aftermath being an outcome of this bigotry. Whereas, powerless GC and both princesses negotiated their societal roles and tried to survive (and thrive) in a system that set them up to fail.

I agree with you that it is not the officer's problem and he is not the reason for the cheating. But I don't think it's entirely her fault for not being able to resist her ex-suitor and becoming a cheater either. Rather, she is the sad product of a society that dictated who and when women can marry and what they must do once married.

JH won't have been an ex-suitor if she didn't have to care whether he was a noble, rush into a marriage or was able cancel marriage plans. Her husband can meet and sleep with as many females as he chooses and his manliness would be celebrated. Yet, she is to have limited exposure to other man and is perceived to be sullied by just physically standing alone in the same space as another man.

Is it agency of being, then, or just the hypocrisy of society's rules (where women are set up to fail) that have far reaching consequences? (Yes, I'm lamenting that such rules and consequences are still a thing in 2023. Sigh.)

haha, yes she will fight another battle and survive and we have a triumph over evil story. :o)

Yes, he is a decent bloke and she is a cheater. The message of this arc is the double standards that society uses to judge and treat men and women.

Marriages in that era are political, financial and social alliances. If there is some liking for each other, then well and truly good, but it's not essential. He is military and GC is literati, a pleasant one to boot. It is the ideal combination of the two branches of nobility. She is a trophy wife.

By law, girls have to be married by 20 or their families will be fined or demoted. Man are encouraged to be married by 30 but otherwise there are no consequences. GC was at least 20 by the time the war was over, she had to be married but her man was "dead". He causally reminded her of it and then opportunistically proposed.

In a marriage, a woman has to keep chaste. If she so as stands alone with another man, she can get walloped to death, publicly. The man, on the other hand, can have concubines, mistresses, whores, and it's fine. Encouraged even, so that they can spread their seeds. GC had the audacity to be in the same room as another man and hold his hand.

Mr officer didn't become bad. He is consistently doing his duty as a filial son. (Hahha, they even pasted that on his door frame!) He got battle honour. He married a respectable girl but the moment she got kidnapped, she lost all value as a wife. It's absolutely not his fault that he as the one who wields a mighty sword did not do enough to protect her, especially given the political climate at that point. Hopefully, his new wife is carrying a son too, to carry the family name.

All men could have done the same things as GC in that era, without labels or consequences. She, on the other hand, has to die because she considered eloping, was kidnapped, because she held the hand of another man, breathed the same air. She failed in being a good wife because it was all her fault. Not society's need for scapegoats for its (men's) failures

I'm so disappointed that my prediction of GC's father being dead is wrong. So yes, I might be wrong in these timelines too.

Yupz, chores are not rocket science and I agree, they don't actually need to learn it. However, employers of new maids tend to breathe down their necks. Trust for them to go about their duties and even walk around the house without supervision takes time. A modern day example: the treatment of Indonesian maids abroad and how their government tries to regulate their deployment in those work environment.

Would the CP be able to walk around as he pleases? Sort of. In history, some of the things that we see JH doing (e.g., hobnobbing with the Manchus) were done by the actual crown princess. Not sure if she was fluent/literate but she was at least proficient in the Manchu language. She would also host banquets for the Machu royalty and Ministers. Both, CP and her were effective diplomats. The younger prince who was also in SY, although not shown in the show, was deployed in the Manchu war efforts against China. So, the Manchus may not like Injo much but they are actually ok w the CP and princess. (Thus, injo's belief that the Manchus are trying to replace him with the CP.) And gave him some leeway as long as he is still on Manchu soil.

Haha, nah, not a expert but I like using history to teach my children that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I thought i should mention that i used key events in history to benchmark the dates as well as Asian familiarisation/businesss culture as estimates.

Let's start the count from GC's arrival at the palace in SY, then.

1) Company/job familiarisation. From the time she was taken into the palace (street scene where she passes JH) to talking to HTJ is approximately 2 - 2.5 months. She is independently doing the chores with little to no obvious supervision. This is unlikely if she is new to the job especially given she is foreigner. HTJ is a hands on commander and they were fighting in Liaoxi during this period. So, it's unlikely that he would be walking around in his home so frequently. For GC to approach him, would need an opportunity. JJ is walking around the huge palace estate with much familiarity to scold the other maid and to get an officer's help. She must know the palace layout well enough to know where to stake out.

2) Travelling to slave camp. From the time of the vase incident to being locked up at the slave camp will be about 2 weeks. The slave camp is near open fields and waterways, so it's unlikely to be in the bustling city of SY. Also, the slave camp is part of a black market. The Manchus royalty didn't really intent to treat the Koreans badly. They started the war essentially to quiet them so that they didn't have to fight the war on two fronts, one to the west (china), and south (korean). Thus, the slave camp is probably kept away from the city in a neighbouring town, either Fushun or Liaoyang or somewhere in between. Let's assume its Fushun. The one way travel there by foot will take some time.

3) Luxury goods waiting to be sold. From the time she arrives at the slave camp to when she runs away, 2 weeks. Korean noblewomen are the equivalent of Prada, Gucci. So, it takes time to sell them to a select market. GC with that scar on her forehead is a slightly damaged Prada. So, it will take a shorter time to sell, but still give the high price that they will want to sell her at, (likely affordable only by nobility,) it won't be fast.

So, by the time we see her running in that field at the end of ep 12, she has already spent 3+ months being tortured. She has been away from Seoul at least 6 mths.

I fast forwarded through some of JH's scene so, I'm not too clear about some of it. (I'm prob in the minority but I don't like him. My girl, GC, wouldn't be in this mess and wouldn't be a returning woman, if he had just sent word from SY earlier. But then, there won't be a show, of course.)

1) Buying farmers. Based on the similar logic as above, CP and team will take 1 month for the 2way trip to the slave market and back. With CP and team on horses and in carriages but old farmers, in tow, travelling by foot.

2) Doing business with the Mongolians (i.e., buying cows). The 2 way trip will take about 3 weeks. The nearest Mongolian town (Tongliao?) is about 300km of grassland away. By horse, it'll be about a week but going back with cows, will take time. And negotiations for purchase will also require some time - maybe 3 or 4 days.

The distance between Seoul (Hanyang - where GC was residing) & Shenyang (Simyang) is about 600km. The land terrain is hilly/mountainous (some full of bandits) but there is a water route.

The time needed to travel between the locations probably depends on how wealthy and healthy the person who is travelling is. The prince and his entourage took 3 months one way from Seoul to SY. GC's captive group seems to have taken 2 months + (when JJ got sick she says that she cannot be walking for another month).

RE should have found the the blood letter in Pyongyang (cos the guards made a pitstop at a "city" like place), so 1 month from Seoul (because they are travelling by foot to search for her). Going back will be another month. By which time, GC is reaching/ has reached SY. RE will probably be able to reach SY a lot faster cos he is or very connected to Manchurians and thus knows the terrain well. Oh and he was there in SY previously. He probably has some money too, given he is a famous singer. So, part water, part land travel ? (No, I don't think GWM will want RE's help so Mr officer is prob gonna track the 600km with the most useless male servant ever. Hahah)

The father will likely die (cos Asians believe that sudden lucidity is a sign of impending death) and so she has to go into a 3 year mourning period without formalising the marriage. During that time, Mr. officer might be off to Qing to aid the fight against the Ming. And that leaves GC unmarried. :o)

I'm just gonna add a little cultural context to xinya's wonderful reply.

Noblewoman were intentionally kept lowly educated so that they could be like pretty vases that were admired or overgrown children to be coddled. Sex between husband and wife was solely for procreation.

Gisaeng were low status women who were extremely pretty, highly educated, highly skilled in cultural art forms, and some in martial arts. Men - married or otherwise - who wanted good quality intellectual and physical stimulation would sought the company of these ladies.

So, a clear segregation between boring home life and exciting entertainment. However, JH seems to be looking for a girl that can be both.

GC is that girl cos firstly, normal noblewoman are unlikely to be swinging around like that - probably only progressive ones. (And that swing scene seems to be from a Korean folklore about a nobleman who falls in love with a gisaeng and marries her.) Secondly, she tries to seduce a guy. Another, not very noblewoman thing to do. Finally, she talks right back to him and insults him, a senior, to his face. She is deliciously rude as she articulates her thoughts. Yet, she is also like a child who is looking for safety. She is relatively clingy and keeps wanting him near. He even dreams of her telling him not to leave.

The identity or construct of "gay" doesn't quite exist at that point.

Before the Joseon dynasty, sex between the same gender was just a preference thing - kinda like preference for the colour red or yellow. It's a non-issue. Both the upper and lower classes can have sex with the same gender one day and a different gender, another day. It's really no big deal.

During the Joseon dynasty, the upper classes became more bound by confucius teachings and had to - at least on the surface - not engage in such practices. It's really to maintain social order so that everyone has a specific prescribed role and duty in society. However, the lower classes, can continue as they please. In fact, a particular group of revolving artists - sorry I can't remember the name of the group - were especially known to engage in same gender sex within the group as well as provide services to those outside the group. They were made up by orphan boys, and older men. The young boys were prostituted out. RE seems to be rescued by JH from this group.

The construct of "gay" being an identity seems to have only come into play when christianity was introduced into Korea (and other parts of East Asia). People who practice same gender sex were perceived as deviant and needed to be "reformed". They became society's outcasts.

I suspect RE's role in this show is to follow the transition from a relatively tolerant society to one that became more obsessed with labels and correct practices. Particularly with the Western influence that the CP brings when he returns to Joseon for good later.

Oh and its one sided cos RE is of a lower class than JH. If he had been a woman of such a low status, it would have been one sided too.

:o) thank you!

The war started in Dec, 1636, ended in Jan, 1637. The POWs were marched off in Feb, 1637 and arrived in Shenyang, Apr, 1637.
CP's 1st visit back to Joseon was in Feb, 1640 and his final trip back was in Jan, 1645.
So, from the time she found out about his death to seeing him again was probably 2+ years.

Just blabbering about class and gender divides.

Merchant class is one up from slaves while the Literati is one down from royalty. The latter is exalted for its keen wisdom while the merchant class is despised for its greed, cheating traits and vulgarness. (Because who needs money, right? Especially not air-headed scholars.)

JH says he is a noble but he acts like a merchant. (In ep 1, the scholars wonder out loud if his nobility status is bought.) Thus, the general opinion of him – is well – gonna be biased. He doesn’t help that opinion by being “crude” in speech and mannerisms. His servant calls him by name, he speaks to the slave class like they are his best friends (ep1/2 – how he treats the old couple) and (drumroll) he asks GC straight off the bat if she will have sex with him (like what?!?!?).

(I actually suspect – based on his manchu language/fighting skills and surname – that he is the son of a rebel general so a true noble albeit a disgraced one.)

GC is from an upper class literati family. She parrots the standard opinions of her class (e.g., JH is not trustworthy/vulgar) but her actions consistently show that class doesn’t matter to her (e.g., carrying the maid while on the run). In fact, she always defers to JH’s opinions especially on actions to take – very much like a super obedient wife. However, the consequences of having relations across classes can’t be more real.

A merchant class girl can be a nobleman’s concubine but men from this class can only marry a commoner. If an upper class girl marries a merchant, she will disgrace her family and be disowned. Possibly completely wiped off the family register so that the family’s reputation/class status is not marred by her actions.

A girl in this era is a father’s daughter/brother’s sister, wife or son’s mother. There is no such thing as having her own independent identity. (Unless, she is a gisaeng.) With their father mentally ill, and brother too young, GC and her sister are essentially identity-less now. While GC probably doesn’t really care (because her soulmate is gone), her family and her maid’s future hangs in the balance. Getting married to a general restores the family’s honour: She is a general’s wife. Her sister can now marry a prince and her brother can be a minister. If she elopes, there are 1 of 3 possible outcomes: the family and everyone else is executed cos they tarnished the husband’s impeccable reputation (highly likely cos he is a general), her family is shamed, or her family is shamed, the sister becomes a gisaeng and her brother a eunuch.

Just after the war, divorces were legalized precisely so that women who disgraced their husband’s families during war can be removed. And by disgrace – its not just rape, or being captives, its having no male companions with them while they were on the run, like GC and EA.

The discrimination against women in history (and even today) never ceases to amaze me.

He is boring. He embodies the asian patriarchal system (and everything that's wrong with it). He has followed every single rule in that rule book. But I guess that's also what makes him the best boi. Cos in that rule book, he is ultra musculine. And Roy is a wimp.

Thanks thanks thanks. I've found it! *happy dance* Love their interaction. And just hoping for more of them and less of the hubs (before my rolling eyeballs roll away).

When does he call her noona? I can't believe I missed it! Arrgghh

We're kinda on the same page. I just think that its due to the script and screenplay rather than the actor. The drama version of YM is a masochistic, weak willed, weepy, love sick puppy. Pathetic really. The stoic gentleman scenes from the book were mostly given to YY in the drama. Where YM saves YD in the book, TZ saves her in the drama; YM saves the mountain but that's done by YY in the show, and that beautiful final scene when YY's evil side takes over and he almost kills YD, that's also YM's scene in the book. So, I'm more inclined to think that the script and screenplay butchered the YM character and that Ray did a good job in making the most out of whatever is left of the character.

Haha Agree with you fully on the YM bits. However, I do think that Ray Chang did a really good portrayal of YM. He really brought the character to life. The book version anyway. The book contrasts between YY who is the epitome of pomp and pageantry (read: to die for bad boy i.e., trouble) and YM who is the unwavering rock of Gibraltar (read: dependable and indispensable). The theme of the book is to never take for granted these silent rocks in our lives just like we should never take for granted the air we breathe.