Tersisko

Hello!
While I agree (it's obvious, really) that there are many scenes that remind of other works (definitely not only SKAM or Shelter, a lot of other stuff too, some actually cited as direct inspirations by the directors, eg. here:
https://www.tumblr.com/blmpff/715218228238008320/from-a-qa-post-on-their-yt-channel-from, and this SKAM-expert's reaction might also be of interest to you: https://www.tumblr.com/skamskada/715700919847747584/i-did-say-im-not-gonna-be-the-annoying-skamhead?source=share ),
I would NOT call this plagiarism. An extensive explanation of why I think that would be very, very long and probably academically dry and boring, so I'll rely on a few people who said it better as a shorthand below.
For example:
https://www.tumblr.com/urfriendlyneighborhoodpopcritic/716766488144576512/the-eighth-sense-intertexts
This post gives an interesting overview on intertextuality in TES, if you're interested, which might not be everyone's idea of original storytelling, but is a completely legitimate means of creating a new piece of art, much like pastiche, parody and hommage.

The shows you mention as possible sources for TES (and all the other media works that inform it) have themselves actually also been inspired by others (narratively and yes, visually, -- and practically speaking, there are only so many ways to shoot a scene in the most impactful yet natural way), so I think it might be helpful to not see TES as some kind of monolithic standalone artwork but as part of a larger (queer) cinematic tradition.
And I personally think it's a very good new entry, drawing from countless inspirations, sometimes citing verbatim, but still becoming its very own thing.

Of course, the question of "how much is too much" is always dependant on personal taste, convictions and viewing history. You decide that for yourself (legal issues aside), and I can understand why this might be tricky in this particular case.

Hope this was helpful or at least not too annoying, have a nice day!

So we've arrived at the end of the story. Or... rather the beginning for our characters, I guess. I am sad it's over but happy to have been a part of the exploration team, here in this amazing comment section and in front of my TV.
I loved almost everything about this show. I felt rewarded for trusting the creators and actors after the stellar beginning, and that is special. They didn't let me down, and they didn't let the characters down, and I feel really glad about that. Beautifully crafted, which is all the more amazing considering the limited time and budget. I want to thank everyone involved for giving it their all and making this a wonderful (if nerve-wracking) five weeks. Now off to rewatch without the anxiety of not knowing how it ends, yay!

I think that's likely! Lets see if the directors stay true to their words and post the deleted scenes soon. Would be interesting!

I never said I thought therapy was the big motivating factor, though. I said everything that happened was laid out in the therapy session, so it was clear that he had a reason, probably a mix of many reasons, one being love and that he now knows how it is to feel really alive.
Therapy gave him a different perspective on his actions however. And I don't know, the ten year therapy might have not solved all his problems regarding intimacy, but that probably wasn't his biggest issue at first in highschool, and seriously, he functioned quite well in the world as long as that was not an issue, and we don't know how bad he was before.
So I think this is quite realistic as well, as for everyone therapy works differently and focusses on different issues as time passes and people grow up. Sure, they could have shown more of this, but I think the choices they made worked for the narrative, although of course that's according to taste.

I on the contrary think they showed his reasons and process on screen extensively enough for the viewers to be able to fill in any missing pieces. It was all laid out in the therapy session. JW missed JH terribly, wanted to protect him by avoiding him, realized that THAT was actually being selfish, when he initially thought he was being selfless and protective, but still felt he had to get better first befor anything could happen again. And that JH had to take the first step towards him this time, cause otherwise he would be confused by JWs hot/cold behaviour and it would have to be his choice this time. And JW got better, little by little, beginning when he could be empathetic towards Yon Woon again. He started be more active, became less lifeless and broke up with EunJi, (using the out of my mind line again, but this time honestly). He successfully worked on overcoming his acute trauma response (he still has depression, as he admitted, so thankfully no "love cures all" bullshit here. And JH was enlightened by his friends, got it, stepped back, gave him space but supported him (eg with the camera). JW was ready to open up to JH again after finally being able to remember the good memories and not just the traumatic events. But he didnt know if it was too late. And when JH sent him the song, he could recognize it as the clear "Go-Sign" that it was and came to him. It all made perfect sense, at least to me.

To my knowledge JH was talking with his boss about meeting Ae Ri for dinner like she had suggested earlier that day, and also more metaphorically about his situation with JW,.Imo it was left ambiguous and open intentionally. JW was wearing the clothes from his therapy session (that was shown over the course of a few eps) and probably decided that day to deepen the relationship with JH, stalked his workplace or saw him by chance and followed him on the train. JH decided to seize this opportunity, ditched Ae Ri (the phone call at the river he didn't answer) and spent the evening with JW. The next day Ae Ri called him out on it and the rest is history... at least that's how I interpreted the sequence of events.
I didnt read that time as romantic hand-holding, it was more like a "come with me"-grab that didnt last long, as they were not touching when walking to the park later. The first real handholding was that amazing scene on the way to the dorm a bit later.

There have been some thoughtful possible explanations further down in the comments, if you're interested.

Thank you so much!! :-)

That makes a lot of sense, actually. You, @LysonP and tumblr user skamskada, who also has an incredibly good post on this scene really helped me out here. Thank you!
https://skamskada.tumblr.com/post/715126373861244928/your-other-half-is-within-yourself

Thank you for your insightful answer! I was actually hoping that it was sth. like what you said, but got afraid that I might be just jumping through hoops and making excuses for a work I love and creators I've come to respect a lot. You really put me at ease! Thanks again!
EDIT: tumblr user skamskada also has an incredibly well informed and nuanced post on this scene, well worth checking out!
https://skamskada.tumblr.com/post/715126373861244928/your-other-half-is-within-yourself

seeing the care and compassion and empathy the creators have shown and are showing constantly in so many aspects (see above post), I am however more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in this matter and will choose to believe that they didnt mean any harm.

Hmm, it's definitely not the roommate, cause he studies social sciences. Its some guy we viewers have never seen before. I guess the scene was supposed to establish that JH and Ae Ri are now more self-confident and more openly sassy/judgy than before and making fun of their suckup classmate who used drag for clout, but because of the dragbashing and ridicule to me that aspect fell flat and the scene felt really uncomfortable and unfunny. Sorta unflattering for JH and Ae Ri, too. Ah well, I hope it was just a misstep and not malice on the creator's part. Cause that would be a bit disappointing.

Edit: Further down, @LysonP gave a really insightful answer to this question, everyone puzzled by this scene should read it!!

Yeah... I was happy about that until our MC and his bestie were very rude to and dismissive of the guy who presented it, because he was in drag... any idea what that was about? I keep asking myself why they had the main POV character humiliate him like that. I was... taken aback, to put it lightly.

1. What was that beginning scene of Ep. 8? It started out as a great nod to Hedwig and the angry inch, with the "Deny me and you're doomed" tagline being a very direct nudge to Jae Won in my opinion, and having that guy we've never seen before dress up for it was initially really cool, I think. It didn't seem like the creators made fun of the presenter in drag at first. But... then JH and Ae Ris reaction to him was... not cool. Really not cool. And I wonder why it was shown that way. Was it a transmysoginistic misstep by the directors or did it serve to show us sth. about JH?
I remember in SKAM Isak spouted homophobic bullshit at one point to kinda distance himself from being a "gay gay", was promptly schooled by Eskild and apologized and changed his behaviour after he accepted himself better. Was this scene supposed to show us sth similar? That JH has not become a "better" version of himself after the accident, just less fearful and more reckless, but also less kind and empathetic? More in step with what society in SK deems acceptable and what it doesn't? Because as much as I love Ae Ri and how she stands up for JH, she can be mean and shallow too and I would find it sad if JH started to emulate her completely. So, I guess what I'm asking is, was JHs reaction to Hedwig guy supposed to be read as a positive or a negative thing. I can't decide what the purpose of this scene is and its driving me nuts...

2. Question for Korean speakers I guess. In Episode 7, when people were talking about "a person dying", "don't die like someone we know" or "nobody died in those clubs", is the Korean more ambiguous than the English translation? Could it also mean "in a coma" or "almost dying" or sth similar?

Thanks in advance, I can't seem to stop thinking about this damn show...

I have two questions about episode 7 and 8, and I just don't know... maybe someone here can help me out with their insight. Under the spoiler.

Oh, you're gone... if you're still reading, I didn't manage to read your last reply, I was out. That's a pity. Hope it was nothing I said and all the best to you, I enjoyed our coversation.

I agree, SKAM Norway is absolutely fantastic, lightning in a bottle one of a kind great. I've watched it more times than I am willing to admit, and it's an impossible standard to meet, let alone surpass, true.
I am still willing to cut the creators of TES some slack for now and will reserve my final judgement for next week, because I think extradiegetically they had a lot less money, shooting time and experience (SKAM NW really reached true greatness only in season 3 after all), and I believe they are trying to do their characters and their story justice with the means they had. There are astonishingly few misssteps for that imo.
Also, realistically, the setting in liberal Norway gave the story a lot more room for untropeyness (is that a word?) and positive reinforcements for Isak and Even, without seeming unrealistic or idealised (wonderful Eskild, much more open attitude to mental illness and homosexuality, supportive friends for Isak, mature and in the end generous Ex for Even, I could go on...), than the setting of such a story in SK could offer without veering into pure BL-fantasy territory.

Thanks for reading! Sorry for replying so late but in my timezone it was waaaayyy past my bedtime.
Roomie is indeed the best, (and yes, including his constant snacking and super healthy relationship with his body), he's cute and a sweetheart and he'd be sorta perfect for JH, I agree. Oh, what could have been... I think you can look forward to many fanfictions going down that road, though.
I am still holding out hope for a satisfying conclusion and reconciliation on screen -- SKAM Norway S3 managed to pull that off in two or three episodes of 10 minutes each, and as a lot of this show is clearly inspired by SKAM and its inspirational sources, I think it could work. But I am scared, too. Let's see what happens!

Thank you for your thoughtful answer!

its interesting, I interpreted everything before the accident much more positively and came to a different conclusion from the exact same facts. Here's why, if you're interested:

For example, I never got the feeling that JW was treating JH as a "dirty secret", but that he was just treading carefully (like JH was too, really). The scene when he was calling JH for the first time was him being completely obvious, and even asshole TH interpreted it as crushing behaviour, even though he didn't realise he was right. The fact that there was still ambiguity in all of JWs public interactions with JH seemed to me in line with the behaviour of someone who isn't open with their sexuality and unsure about whether to act on their feelings or not, and JW always singled JH out in being extra nice to him -- sure, there would still be the plausible deniability of just being nice to a Junior, but in a conservative society like SK and his social position in it, that seems reasonably cautious rather than callous to me. That JH showed his admiration (albeit only a bit) more openly might stem from the fact that he isn't bound by as many societal chains and might not mean that he is an inherently "better" person, just young.

JW using JH as a shelter and refuge on this trip is true (he admitted as much in the latest session with his shrink and was feeling guilty and ashamed of it), but he regretted it mostly because he went too far too fast out of desperation. We can't know if that trip would have been a real beginning for the both of them or a one-time-thing, because the acc. fucked everything up.
But, they were in such an early phase of their "relationship" anyway that it could have gone both ways, and there wasnt an longtime unrequited love being exploited for the sake of a bit of comfort. I think I understand where JW was coming from, and I think there was genuine emotion and affection behind his actions, even if they were a bit selfish. I don't think JH expected anything but just went with it. Enthusiastically. He wanted to be there for JW, he had a grand ole time and even after not hearing from JW for weeks after the acc he still called it the happiest memory of his life (and I mean, not all first times end in happily ever after, but that was an epically amazing loss of virginity -- if they even went that far, which I'm not sure of). It could have been a good memory by itself even without a subsequent relationship. That's how I see it at least.

I cant argue against the rejection after passion being a big fat trope, but I'd have to say its not confined to BL -- it transcends gender and is super typical for Het Melos and Romance Dramas too. Which I perversely find kinda inclusive, I guess?
The trope itself sucks when it is employed for flimsy plot reasons, but here... sigh, I think it really was the only way JW could really push JH away. Sadly. And its a trope for a reason. That shit hurts. And works. What a collossal "noble idiot" aka cruel bastard. But its entirely in character, so I cannot fault the writing here. (I can and do fault it for the gross beginning scene of episode 8, which was at best tone-deaf and at worst outright transphobic, but I digress.) I am very interested to find out if I can forgive JW for that, even if JH probably will eventually.

JH coming out of his coma an almost different person might be an overreaction to almost dying and will eventually even out again I'd guess. But I can attest it seems realistic, at least from my personal experience. You dont need angels to be fundamentally changed after something like that happened to you. Fucks are a lot harder to give to unimportant things after that, and you become reckless in the stuff that matters to you. For now I believe it is not a front he puts up. Its not entirely healthy though and maybe not sth to rejoice over.

And lastly: It was Ji Hyuns Parents who called the school and made a stink about the club, not JWs, I believe, which makes it a little less tropey and a lot more realistic, the blame game follows strange rules in K-Dramas...

Phew, another essay, sorry if I was ranting, I dont wanna change your mind or anything, but somehow I had a lot to say apparently... if you read it, thanks for your patience!

Hi @SnowRegret ! Genuine question: Do you really think before the accident Jae Wons motivations were that mean-spirited and cunningly calculated? He used him, wanted to get into Ji Hyuns pants without witnesses and was maybe already planning to dump him afterwards, never acknowledging their relationship with no regards for JHs feelings? Cause thats what youre describing here, and that would be abhorrent and would totally justify your disgust. Or rather, do you infer all of this from his last, deliberately cruel conversation with Ji Hyun and his behaviour after JH regained consciousness? And interpret everything that happened before in this new and unfavourable light?
Because you state all this as if it was undisputable fact I was wondering if I had missed something and what lead you to that conclusion.
While I completely agree that mental illness isn't a valid excuse for treating someone badly and JW is being a colossal asshole, even if his intentions might actually be good, I dont think that means that everything he has done so far is selfish, exploitative and manipulative. "Just" the way he dealt with the aftermath of the JHs accident is shitty and will have to be addressed and properly dealt with.
Also, Ji Hyung has agency. I mean, he has a brain and is naive and inexperienced but smart and very perceptive and also had an pursuing role in their interaction, he was an active and willing participant in their trip and intimacy. And I do think that he was alright with being alone with JW, away from everyone they knew. He made the choice to stay. And after the accident he was extremely understanding of JW and willing to forgive him his shitty ghosting, so he was sad but okay. He's very honest, so we'd know if he had been suffering more. His life is about more than JW, thank god. so I dont think he's in danger of hurting himself. He's gonna suffer his first major heartbreak and that is bad enough, but he will pull through cause he's tougher than he looks, and that has been established quite well.
So, contrary to you, I think that the narrative is still pretty well crafted, it might be a different story than expected from the beginning, but it makes sense to me so far and will only be made or destroyed by the last episodes.
Also, imo JWs cruelty at the end was the only way he saw of really making JH give up on him, which is what he desperately wanted. Avoiding him didn't work. So he went for the lowest blow and lied to his face. And hit JH where it really hurt, to make him stop liking him. That is inexcusable, but it makes sense from his twisted perspective and is not "just an empty BL trope for shits and giggles" and actually could have happened without him being mentally ill as well in my opinion. So yeah, long story short, what JW did was shitty but if it is unforgivable or if he can be redeemed will be determined by how the story plays out, I think.
This was not at all intended to diss you or your interpretation, I just really, really hope the story is not as bleak as what you saw, for my own sanity. Have a nice day, thanks for reading.