mukkanna

I believe 2ML had to die because he wanted to overthrow the government. China frowns on people who want to overthrow the government, so they generally come to a bad end. A sacrifice to the censorship gods...

Trophy?

This is a fictional world, fictional dynasty, fictional characters. There's a kid that is shown only in the specials.

I'm reading on douban that Youku is still making adjustments to filters and CGI, so I'm waiting till they finish upgrading stuff :)

I wouldn't say killed...it's still the number 1 drama Youku is airing in multiple countries. Facts are facts!

I suspect Daegon is referring to the fact that Reba now has 80 million followers on Weibo...I think she had 70 plus million before LOA aired, I believe. So she's gained additional fans.

Agree, that's what I said...

Since you dislike it, I suppose you think I might like it? What are some things you think I might like? I'll consider it.

I distinctly recall that many viewers thought Han Ye was a idiot getting gaslighted for much of the first half, despite multiple moments where he shows he's actually quite sharp and isn't just swallowing everything hook, line, and sinker. Maybe they needed a bigger sledgehammer for that one :)

I agree I wouldn't have kept watching if the acting was terrible. But that goes for pretty much all dramas...it's hard to get invested in a character whose actor is doing a terrible job.

Nirvana in Fire is one of my favorite dramas, but it's a true revenge/justice drama with very little romance involved. This one, as described by the directors, is a romance first, and revenge/justice is just the background (don't get me wrong, I do think the execution could have been better; but lumping it in with revenge/justice dramas sets unrealistic expectations about the focus of the drama).

I've invested a lot more than 30 hours of my (very busy) life and have zero regrets about that. By now I've watched probably over 1000 C-dramas and K-dramas, and of those I've rewatched maybe 20. I'm going to rewatch this one. Everyone has their own tastes :)

I agree (especially the part about not being able to watch even S+ quality stuff that irks you haha)! My favorite drama of 2023 for sure. I only find 0-1 dramas a year I'd personally rewatch, and I'm going to rewatch this one later. It has its flaws, but for me those are completely outweighed by the good points (and the pet peeve avoidance!).

But you're still here after rating the drama a 2...that means something about it was memorable enough that you're still investing time into it, right?

A 2 for me means it's not worth investing time in, not even to hate on it...it's not even worth my time to click on the page and find the rating link :) The only thing I'll do for those is remove it from my watchlist so I don't accidentally try it again later after forgetting that it was terrible, because I can't even remember the name of the drama...

To clarify, I never said all the criticisms are antis. There are some real issues with this drama, and I believe they're mostly related to changes made due to censorship and production. The low score here is basically multifactorial. People who hate the actors/actresses regardless of what they do; people who don't like the production quality; people who can't follow the plot for IQ/EQ/attention deficit reasons; people who had high expectations and who felt they were served something different from what they had ordered; people who are fans of one actor or actress and think they were treated unfairly in the drama/production; people who just didn't invest effort into understanding what was going on for whatever reason (might be just as simple as "___in this drama is not my type, and it's not worth the effort to me").

What I said is that people have different tastes.

In reflecting, I suspect that people who like this drama a lot probably have a higher IQ/EQ. Why do I say that? It appears to me that this drama is getting a higher number of "analysis" type posts in China than the average for an idol costume drama, which points to an audience that has a higher level of education. To be clear, I'm not saying that I think your IQ or EQ is low...I'm saying that to like and be invested in this drama, it's almost a requirement; and then the drama still needs to meet the viewer's other "likes" to be a good drama for them. The viewer needs the IQ to make sense of the plotline jumps, and they need the EQ to make sense of the characters' emotions and motivations. Had some scenes or lines been added, and some others removed, viewers wouldn't need to use IQ/EQ to make up the distance, and this drama would have been more accessible to people who are just casually watching. I also have periods where my brain is tired and I just want to watch something light that I don't have to think about...and I completely agree with you, this isn't one of those. I had to save all the episodes till the weekend to catch up because I have to use my brain when I watch to catch all the details that make things come together...but I find that a lot more fun than the all the brainless fluff dramas.

I'll consider watching that one you mentioned when it finishes airing the entire thing :)

To clarify, I think the taboo part was where the protagonist decides the current government is unworthy and that they can and should rebel and overthrow it. Why else would they whitewash Han Zhongyuan so thoroughly? Why make it to where Di Ziyuan decides to stop short of rebellion and say "but Han Ye will be a great emperor, so I'm good now!" Why make it so Luo Mingxi, the one who presses for rebellion instead of Di Ziyuan, ends up with a bad ending when he had a happier one in the novel? To me, the message seems to be: people who want to overthrow the government come to a bad end, and even if the government makes mistakes, you should be a good citizen and just believe they will do better.

It's not that I think the script will be good...it's just that I like to analyze things so I can properly assign blame and credit :) This could have been awesome, and for me it ended up still being very good, but all the script readers said the emotional line was very well done. In my opinion, that was actually one of the weaker parts of the drama. Han Ye's part was very well done, but Di Ziyuan's was not, so they ended up with a lot of viewers feeling that the love line was unequal. Di Ziyuan's love for Han Ye in the second half is established purely by her acting, and not by concrete actions. For me, I can see it--but I also have a lot of training and experience recognizing and analyzing emotions based on facial expressions, tone, and body language (suppressed, conflicted, and overt). Di Ziyuan for most of the second half loves him but doesn't want to love him, feels guilty and ashamed for hurting him in the past, is hesitant to hurt him again but does it anyway because she thinks it's a dead end for them and it'll hurt both of them less if she makes a clean break, and to top this all off she tries to suppress all her emotions in front of him and often can't even look him in the face when she's talking to him...like the entire conversation where she came to Qingnan to say goodbye to him, she never once even looked at him. When he stopped her as she was leaving, the expression on her face was dread--this otherwise fearless, battle-hardened woman was afraid of what he was about to say, visibly steeling herself. Well done! This sort of thing is what I mean by the acting saving the storyline...without things like this, no one would believe that Di Ziyuan loved Han Ye at all. But still, the average viewer doesn't want to see this, they want to see grand acts of love! I just wonder if some actions that would have shored up the main love line got cut to fit in Di Chengen's gratuitous bath scenes and Linlang's gratuitous dances and Luo Mingxi's gratuitous fish-squeezing and candle-dripping.

Truth be told, there are some parts of the novel that are best not filmed (hah!) and one of my biggest concerns was that both Han Ye would come off as a Gary Stu (that character has virtually zero flaws in the novel, and other than his stint at the bottom of the first cliff, doesn't ever stray from his "majestic crown prince" setting) and that Di Ziyuan would come off as an unnecessarily cold b. Because, you know...she's even colder in the book than she is in the drama. Di Ziyuan already got so much hate in some forums for "fooling" Han Ye, "abusing" Han Ye, "not loving" Han Ye enough...could you imagine if he actually asked her "Do you want me to die?" and she just responds, "Nah, but only because I owe you for nearly dying to save my life earlier. Don't forget to try your best to kill me though, because I'm going to destroy your whole family and make them pay back what they owe."

I think Reba decided to go the route of softening the character's emotions. "I resent what you did but I'm also hurt by it because we never did anything bad" rather than the novel Di Ziyuan route of "I resent what you did and you're completely unworthy of the throne, let me take it from you and show you how a real emperor would do it!"...which as we know wouldn't get past censorship. And then that's what derailed the rest of the revenge plot. I've come to the conclusion that China drama-land is what dragged down the plotline, since everything I'm reading suggests the original script was very good with a strong emotional line. Wish I could get a copy so I could analyze it myself...

But yes, I'm glad I was still able to enjoy it, too. It doesn't completely match what I read but frankly some things needed deletion (drunken sexual harassment kiss, highly questionable injuries and medical treatments, telling the future with astrology). Plus the novel had some plotholes that the drama closed. I just consider the drama an alternate universe where Han Ye is more social and Di Ziyuan is more sad/disappointed than angry and Luo Mingxi is a sadomasochist with a 1-D underling who happens to dance well. She's nice eye candy so I forgive her for being 1-D.

I agree with some of this, but the following I'd like to point out:
- Di Ziyuan in the novel never came across as being traumatized. Angry, cold, determined, driven, yes. But traumatized, crying, etc? No. I actually think that would be out of character for novel Di Ziyuan, and maybe Reba thought that, too. If you look at the child actress in the first episode, she didn't look traumatized, either--just cold and resentful. This probably reflects the character setting or perhaps the director, and not Reba's acting.
- I think Gong Jun did a great job with the acting in that particular scene, and whoever dubbed him also did fine. He's not expressionless; this is Han Ye holding back his emotions. It's an expression and speech pattern I see all the time when people are trying not to cry or fall apart. The actor is playing a character who's both confessing his love and simultaneously giving up on it. Novel Han Ye said it calmly with a smile in his eyes and left. I think the way Gong Jun interpreted it resonates more emotionally than the way it was written in the novel.
- There weren't any cliff scenes in the drama that weren't in the novel (I do think the novel over-used the cliff thing, though!)

Yes, perfectly reasonable :) I rate it higher because frankly, it's hard for me to find any C-drama that doesn't hit one (or more) of those 3 pet peeves. Even the supposedly great ones do it once or twice... The only other costume C-drama exception I've seen in 30 years is Nirvana in Fire. So it already gets an 8-9 just for pet peeve avoidance. The eye candy actors and actresses and the great acting from Gong Jun and Reba are bonuses and push it up to the 10 :)

I started watching 2 other recently released dramas and the CGI in the first one is so jarring and looks like it was done in the 1990s...LOA looks awesome in comparison. I was still going to watch it but then the characters did such stupid, brainless things that I couldn't continue. So I paused that and tried a second one, but after watching 4 eps I can't recall any memorable scenes (the filming in LOA is definitely better, even though they did a sub-par job of cutting and splicing) or to name any traits of either of the characters other than ML: cold, somewhat irritable; FL: ditzy, I think she's supposed to be smart but she's not... Still going to watch some more to see if it gets any better, but my hopes are low.

There are kisses in the novel!

1. Drunken, questionably sexual assault kiss complete with knocking victim unconscious - thankfully was not included LOL
2. A peck on the lips that probably lasted 0.2 seconds.

I suspect it's the omission of plotlines (or even lines) that "prove" that FL is deeply in love with ML. She didn't do enough crazy, over-the-top things for love to make up for what amounts to backstabbing him in the name of justice, especially after the things he did for her...so it looks to many people like a one-sided love. Lots of fans were clamoring for a bad ending in China.

Reading on Douban, it sounds like a lot of the drama watchers read the actual script, and they're saying the original script was good. If that's the case, then sounds like it got butchered in post-production. That makes sense given the rumors that Youku and the production company were fighting.

I actually think novel Han Ye is bland, boring, straight-laced, super serious and responsible. Until he's not. But then he goes straight back to his "crown prince" mode. I mean...this is the guy who stood around in his underwear letting Ren Anle and crew do all the fighting when he was the one getting assassinated, to the point where you had no idea he could even hold a sword till the Cang Mountain events. Clearly he'd instilled this into Wen Shuo as well, since that kid just did his homework instead of rushing to defend Han Ye who was getting assassinated. And he's also the guy who, when challenged to a high-spirited archery contest, said something like "the weather's so nice today, let's have a tea party instead."

Drama Han Ye is pretty much just like him--except he's more social. He's also easier to empathize with; in many ways, novel Han Ye seems distant and untouchable.

What do you mean? Linlang was barely in the source novel, and Luo Mingxi also had his role greatly expanded? I think a lot of netizens in China (a lot of whom are novel fans) think Luo Mingxi's character changes are the root of the problems with the plotline.

Depends on your tastes?

I suspect people are rating it low because they had a lot of expectations, but the production was not ideal. Also some people think ML and FL can't express emotions (as a professional involved in a lot of counseling I have to say that's completely incorrect). I'm especially impressed with ML's performance in this...he really can act with his eyes!

Compared to other idol costume dramas, it's actually very good with many striking and memorable scenes. I started watching two other dramas after this one, and looking back on them not two days later, I can't visualize any specific scenes from either of them.

Most importantly for me, this drama also managed to avoid all my pet peeves, which is a major feat for a C-drama!

This is a good drama for people who:
- Like themes that make them think about life, relationships, and the world
- Like angst. Lots of angst. And a fair amount of ML torture.
- Like to wonder if everything is as it seems, or maybe that flicker of the eyes meant...?
- Can use their brain to figure out why people do things, instead of being spoon-fed information
- Like "smart" characters to be actually smart in their behaviors...even if that means less drama/fighting/bad stuff happening
- Like realistic emotional entanglements and relationships. It's not 100% love 100% of the time. This is decidedly NOT a fluffy fairytale perfect love story; it can be painful to watch. They hurt each other, in some cases on purpose (it's hard to avoid collateral damage when one is trying to take out the other one's family)

This is not a good drama for people who:
- Have trouble recognizing emotions in other people. They will be lost, disappointed, and unable to figure out why anyone is doing anything. The FL and ML both have layered emotions in their acting, and if they can't pick them out they end up really confused and dissatisfied. Or I guess some folks think the actors are "expressionless" because they can't figure out any of the emotions? I don't know, honestly.
- Want something with all fluff and skinship. This can get very depressing at times.
- Want action and fighting all the time. Part of the issue with smart and mature characters is that they use their brains or just walk away instead of fighting a lot of the time...
- Don't have patience OR the ability to fast forward (you will know which supporting character I speak of...)
- Think people can never have non-romantic love for anyone of the opposite sex
- Think romantic love should always trump everything else, and it's inexcusable to ever choose anything else
- Can't stand deviations from the novel. They're not the same. Similar themes, similar settings, similar characters...but lots of changes, some for the better and some for the worse. (Yes, that's right. Some of the changes are for the better!)
- Think it's a standard revenge drama. It's more of a quest for justice, and the overarching theme of the drama is "The monarch is not as important as the country, and the country is not as important as the people."