Sol1056

TTJ is definitely semi-feral grudge-holder, but "I want powerless people to live without fear" and "I want to slaughter those who abused me" are not mutually exclusive. I believe he's sincere in the first, because he's been powerless and knows how horrible it is, and he's been consistent in the second from the beginning.

That said, I'm not sure what he'd do once he finished off all those grudges, though. He might turn to gradually achieving some kind of normal, or his lifelong survival-instinct paranoia might turn him into the exact kind of despot he's currently fighting.

Not to mention their impression of the entire family! You can't argue that a marriage means a husband *and* his family -- and then turn around and pretend like you can publicly and brutally dress down a single person and not have it reflect on everyone else in that family.

Just feels like the screenwriter isn't being consistent about what, who, and when there are consequences, and that bugs me almost as much as seeing Mom's character lose all the growth we'd seen over the previous few episodes.

it was a pivotal point that existed only because the screenwriter decided the moment needed to be dramatic -- but then gave the mom actions that no one would be coming back from.

Mom basically said, "we have a child we cannot govern," so how on earth would the emperor trust they could govern their own troops? How could anyone trust that their other children weren't just as bad, when thinking of marriages for the brothers or YY? Mom might have her issues, but that speech was fundamentally too stupid for me to believe it was true to the character.

That's the crux of the issue: that scene required me to believe that Mom could turn stupid and blind to the serious ramifications of her entire speech -- and Mom might have been bull-headed and strict, but she never struck me as *stupid*.

Before this latest episode, I would've told you the parents would be thrilled about LBY proposal, but probably not leap on it out of fear CSS would just go in the opposite direction. Plus we had signs of parent/child truces (CYX & CSS side-by-side, just like CSS and her dad). So... the total 180 at the end of the last episode left me like: did I miss scenes where all the familial progress fell apart to send us back to square one?

Meanwhile, holy MOLY are there a ton of Seriously Rude people in this story. I mean, LBY effectively interrupting his future MiL and telling her to shut up!? Okay, satisfying in the heated moment of manufactured drama -- but pretty much the opposite of realistic even for now! At the very least, LBY's (foster) parents should've felt embarrassed by his complete lack of respect for his elders, let alone his future in-laws. (Or maybe we're supposed to let it go b/c LBY already talks back to his own foster-father, idk.)

Or consider the "Oh, I didn't want to be here, but I came because I had to," bit from an earlier episode that's... wtf, over. So many characters talking back to elders, was there a firesale on sass at the local Hot Topic? Behaviors that I *might* buy from modern kids (who are also HS dropouts and street punks) but I'm totally not believing for characters raised in an insular feudal society where every action impacts the family's reputation. Rudeness from CSS? That's sort of why we're here, that she speaks her mind -- but so what? Look around. Everyone's doing it.

Plus, the story really, really wants us to see CSS as the perpetual victim. Her parents were gone for 15 yrs and it's totally their fault they weren't omniscient to know the grandmother & aunt were taking all the gifts meant for CSS and leaving CSS to live on scraps. Okay, fine. But it's starting to feel both like a broken record, plus a growing sense of unfair to elevate the He and Huo families for sacrificing everything to defend the country. General Cheng & his wife were doing the same, after all. They just happened to survive their battles, or maybe the story wants us to see that as their biggest mistake.

It's not even accurate, anymore. CSS was with her aunt & uncle for at least a few months? More than a few days. Yet the story would have us believe it never occurred to the aunt to provide any of the teaching that Mom's getting excoriated for not doing: how to bow or greet or serve or whatever. No, the story's too busy reminding us that CSS (despite having parents around now for coming up on a year, roughly) might as well have just scrambled out from under the woodpile only yesterday. And at the same time, we're to believe that CSS has had enough exposure (thanks Mom for hiring YS) to be able to logic out which philosopher gets the credit for some idea.

The novelist also wrote Story of MingLan, so I know we're dealing with someone who has a fairly good idea of their stuff (and from what people are saying went down in the novel, sounds like this is a fair assessment). SoML had two screenwriters who -- while not a lot of screen credits -- were at least ones who'd done historical screenplays, so perhaps they were a better match (or caught the subtleties in the novel). This screenwriter hasn't done historicals, and neither has the director. If these are changes for the sake of drama/conflict/humor/angst, I wonder how much is seen only in the moment ("do it this way, that'll be funny") with no recognition of the historical reality that no action happens in a vacuum.

I mean, at minimum, Mom saying all that to the emperor isn't just too much for her daughter. From my understanding, it'd also end any chances of YY or the brothers getting married, too! Who'd want to ally with a family who has an ungovernable wild child? There's no way Mom -- no matter the reason -- would torpedo her sons' marriages and her husband's career just to turn down a marriage that up to that point I was pretty sure Mom actually would've welcomed.

Basically, the last 10 minutes or so of the latest episode was a Chinese version of a Hollywood moment, and I'm feeling kind of irked because I expected better from a story written by the novelist who brought us a gem like Story of Ming Lan. But that could just be me.

Someone tell me I'm not alone in these complaints, but this is just too much and it doesn't even feel like it's true to the story or the characters. Mostly I feel like I'm getting a building case of whiplash. Both Mom *and* LBY were wildly ahistorical in the latest episode to an unbelievable degree, but they weren't the first and my guess is they won't be the last.

I was half-expecting a few tumbleweeds to go rolling by

given the way the novel apparently went (with no public shaming from mom), I think that whole situation (including the aftermath) is thanks to a screenwriter undoing character growth for the sake of conflict. up to that point, I would've thought mom would be like, LBY? YES!

I'm starting to think the screenwriter felt it necessary to demonize mom completely (just as she was getting humanized!) to justify why CSS enters the palace to be educated. Which imo doesn't require being justified, b/c there's no way a soldier like Mom is going to know all the palace etiquette to teach CSS, anyway, which is why future consorts often will enter the palace before marriage, so they have time to ramp up on things before their formal debut (the wedding).

Entering the palace to get that education doesn't have to mean your parent is (or require your parent to be) cruel, neglectful, or incompetent. I'm rather not liking the screenwriter decided that's how we should see it, but that could just be me.

from the comments (in another thread) about what happened in the novel -- which sounds like it played out as your idea, of "hey can we have some time to consider this please" -- I think we're getting jerked around by screenwriter fiat, trying to come up with the most conflicting and angst-ridden avenue possible. (Which I kind of resent when I realize a story is doing that just to make things worse, but that's me.)

I mean, the last major mother-daughter interaction, we had huge leaps forward! each was starting to realize the other wasn't all wrong or bad, that they worked great as a team, they were on the same page. not perfect but making progress towards at least some kind of truce.

but if the screenwriter hadn't insisted Mom respond right then, then we wouldn't have all had that moment of terrible frisson, feeling so bad for CSS (while some of us were probably going, well, mom isn't wrong, but still, harsh way to phrase it) -- and that in turn wouldn't have given LBY a reason to go full speed ahead in the opposite direction, proclaiming CSS is the perfect woman and the only woman he'll ever marry. (With everyone ignoring what it says about him that he thinks the perfect woman is someone with that litany of social ignorance.)

I got swept up in the scene like it seems most viewers did, but the more I consider it, the more I suspect I'll be skipping the last scenes of this episode as strangely manufactured drama that really wasn't necessary -- as well as undermining one of my favorite scenes so far, where mother and daughter become such a scary and effective team.

But all Mom knew was CSS didn't seem interested in LBY at all, so Mom with no warning or planning is desperately trying to protect her daughter from a situation that she has every reason to believe her daughter doesn't want. I'm honestly not sure what else the mother could've said that would've made the emperor say, "you're right, I won't grant this marriage, she's not a good fit for my foster son."

And if Mom had said nothing and sat there silently, would everyone be slamming her for failing to defend her daughter from a proposal (that as far as she knew) her daughter didn't want?

I still think it could've been handled far more gracefully if a) they'd had any warning of LBY's plans, b) they'd had any sense that CSS might be willing to marry him. Mom was going on "my daughter made clear she's zero interest in him" and to convince an emperor meant pulling out all the stops. That's why I say it was a terrible situation for everyone except LBY, who got exactly what he wanted but practically scorched the earth to the ground to get it.

(But we're all forgetting that even all that, YS would still have been happy to sweep in and 'rescue' NN, gossip be damned -- he's fully aware of all those flaws and fell for her anyway.)

the problem is that there's no halfway with emperors. Lots of talk here about how this emperor is so different than the usual stereotype... but he's still an emperor and one wrong move and you'll still be reminded of that. Just saying, "oh, we don't think it's a good idea" wasn't going to fly -- and to this point, Mom had no reason to think CSS was even remotely willing, so Mom chose to go with that knowledge and throw everything she possibly could at it, to get the emperor to back down. How was Mom supposed to know that actually CSS wasn't all that against the idea?

It really feels like it doesn't make much difference; Mom can't win. She argued against marrying A'Yao, which upset/angered CSS into making threats to get what she wanted -- permission. But now that CSS has (again) chosen her own path, the last shots of the latest episode seem (to me, at least) like CSS is now upset/angered about Mom so easily giving permission.

Basically, before Mom didn't agree to what CSS did want, and now she's agreeing to what CSS doesn't want -- but it was CSS who made that choice. Mom's not a mind reader to know CSS didn't want the marriage (she only said she didn't see a choice, not that she didn't want it).

That was... a terrible experience all the way around, because Mom wasn't wrong. It was maybe only 5 minutes earlier in the episode, the 5th princess was threatening the entire Cheng family due to NN's actions. CSS was the luckiest monkey for not catching the emperor in a bad mood and putting the entire family at risk, multiple times! I'm sure we can all name multiple dramas where a single faux pas puts an entire family to shame, and CSS was nothing but a constant string of faux pas from before she'd even stepped off the carriage.

So, Mom had literally *nothing* to go on except CSS' previous stance of not being all that keen on LBY -- and the knowledge that LBY is swimming in very strong currents, and CSS wouldn't always be so lucky to cute her way of offending powerful people. Fact is, anything less than "my daughter is the WORSTEST EVER" was not going to convince the emperor, so yeah, Mom had to pull out all the stops. I felt for CSS of hearing that about herself, I felt for Mom for being put on the spot with no warning (not cool, LBY, really), but I especially felt the scene because everything Mom said really was the truth.

Me, I would've preferred CSS could've seen the third choice. Yes, the emperor made clear that 'no' was not an option, but that doesn't mean the answer had to be yes. It could've been "not yet" -- after I've learned more, after I'm older, after I've had a chance to get to know him better, after I've learned formal etiquette, something. Unfortunately, CSS agreeing anyway now makes her parents look like idiots for protesting.

Really, I like LBY overall but his approach here was ruthless, and harsh! Disrespecting his future MIL is not okay, that's humiliation she didn't deserve when LBY is the one who orchestrated the entire debacle! Literally no one else in the room had any warning, so while catching them flat-footed served his ends, his means have done exactly what the emperor accused him of an episode ago, of causing chaos through the entire court.

He's humiliated that snippy Princess, which gets her powerful grandmother involved (and she & her husband hare powerful enough that even the emperor fears them), which in turn sets the Duke & stepmother against him (overtly now, instead of in whispers). He's insulted his future in-laws (who may be smaller potatoes but are still crucial to the emperor's need to protect the people, given generals seem to have short lifespans). He's pissed off his foster-father and sent shockwaves through his foster sisters, and lest we forget another general's daughter was potentially in talks (via the empress), so there'll likely be yet another general angry on his daughter's behalf.

If there was any one action LBY's taken that shows his eyes are only ever on the end goal and he has exactly zero consideration for who gets trompled or destroyed during the means, that one scene was it, for me.

does no one realize mother hasn't compared to YY in like 5 or 6 episodes, and the last two (maybe three?) times there's been comparison, it was CSS who brought up YY, not mom? It's like CSS is so determined to hold that grudge, beyond all reason.

my impression was both actors can ride, but normally productions won't let actors go up to a gallop -- it's too risky and insurance gets really nasty about that level of risk. I couldn't tell what the trick was, but it did feel a little like they were pretending to be going faster but not actually? (and the actual galloping was done by stunt riders.)

this seems like a question for an equestrian/ne in the fandom.

but by their last meeting, he did! it took him a number of episodes, but he finally showed some backbone (and a decent amount, at that).

you're forgetting the slap HZJ gave Prince Xiao

yeah, I think the "steal my man" is a rather crude translation -- "if you're willing to fight me over him" might be a more careful (and more accurate) sense of the phrasing.

which one? there were three satisfying slaps in the episode, and all deserve multiple replays!

No, still victim-blaming. ZH may have chose who she thought would be the best husband, but she wasn't the one who sold ill-made weaponry, decided to rebel, tried to take her hostage to force her family to join the rebellion, and then killed all of them when they refused. All of that is on Prince Xiao, and it's not fair to expect ZH to have been a mind-reader or to predict the future to know how things would shake out.

ZH was just as much of a victim as the rest of her family.

Yong admitted he was guilty of switching out the weapons so Gu city was unable to defend itself -- but Yong never planned for Gu city to be abandoned by its reinforcements. In other words, Yong made for a bad situation but he wasn't the killing blow. Someone else is responsible for leaving Gu city without backup.