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Yoooo a Pinoy BL adaptation of “La Ronde”? Sign me up!

Is this someone's Klance fanart? Don't forget to credit!

You just gave me Mystic Messenger flashbacks

I'm not knocking the show by any means! I may get into it, or it may end up just not being for me. Time will well.

"From what I've read about this dating SIM, wouldn't the characters all just be like robots, in the beginning, lacking personalities entirely? That would be exciting! Not. There may be a touch of that in TK's character but to make an entire series based on a SIM?...boredom city."

Not all the characters, just the main playable who in this case would be Taekyung. I haven't played the game myself, but for most dating sims, the main character is intentinoally flat so that the person playing can project themselves onto them while the dating options fit into character archetypes, e.g. Daon the Super Popular One, Shinwoo the Tsundere, etc. I haven't played this particular game but the standard elements are there.

I'm glad someone else get the same feeling re: Taekyung that I did! I chalked it up to this being a dating sim adaptation so he's probably designed to be a blank slate.

"Is this show good? Or does it just have great production value?"

My ADHD brain is struggling with this one.

We're three eps in and I still can't root for the main character. He's giving me nothing. I know this is based on a dating sim, and dating sim mains are supposed to be blank slates so the player can project on them, but that doesn't translate well to screen.

I can see the endgame coming a mile away and I'm... neutral on it. Mostly because I'm getting nothing from Taekyung.

I'm warming up to the side characters, though. Daon is the most interesting to me so far.

Will trudge on!

Watching the original adaptation fucked me up the first time but I am ready to be hurt again!!!

So far, this show is basic, saccharine, cliché--and exactly what I need right now. I'll eat my crow, CopyA

Also YDestiny is officially the most realistic BL series because no one in this friend group is straight

"I think there is something progressive about BL playing out like all those many many cringe, questionable, loose moral, straight rom-coms" That part!! #LetGayShitBeBasicToo

SEE THIS GUY GETS IT. Love the MoD icon btw!

"Nobody rooted for the Lannister siblings (Game of Thrones) to be together either and most people felt weird about the two major characters being together considering they were aunt and nephew even if they didn't know that before sleeping together."

I can say for certain that's not true. There are Cersei/Jaime fansites still up, and Entertainment Weekly put Jon and Daenerys embracing on their front cover after the news broke. I'm not all that familiar with GoT but even that got on my radar. Outside of just GoT, incest is pretty popular with The Straights. Studies have shown that incest is one of the most popular porn categories for heterosexual viewers. The most well-known incest lit is almost all heterosexual.

I take issue with the idea that we should caution what queer media we consume/produce because of what straight people might think. For one, queer content shouldn't need the input of straight people. But the real issue with that is... straight people don't really *need* an excuse. Anything we do can be vilified. I think that's something a lot of people who want to sanitize queer content don’t realize: When the end goal is queer erasure, it doesn’t matter what we do. They find reasons. That’s always been the case.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be series out there focused on positive rep, but it’s starting to sound like *all* our media should be focused on educating straight people.Straight people are allowed to enjoy what they want without worrying what it means about them, but we should be content to focus all queer media on… straight people? We can’t be okay with that, man. Besides, I doubt the straight community, or anyone else for that matter, are getting their lessons from the HIStory franchise. If they were, we’d be hearing a lot more about how Sun BoXiang and Lu ZhiGang are perpetuating the stereotype that gay men are predators who go after teen boys. That’s a stereotype you see often, especially here in the West. “Gay men commit incest” isn’t a commonly-held stereotype where I'm from. I haven't heard the same in the East either, but if I'm wrong please let me know.

tl;dr Queer content isn’t meant to educate straight people. If it can, awesome! But that’s not what our media is for. We can’t revolve every aspect of ourselves around what straight people want. Take it from a black woman: If an oppressor wants to vilify you, they’ll do it. Trying not to act in a way that will “make them” think of you negatively ain’t it.

How about instead of less queer content that featured X, we just have more queer content in general? I like that idea much more.

I'm a lesbian fujoshi, not a straight supporter, so I hope you see my opinion as just as valid--if not more so--as the allies you're asking.

This series does not "offend the LGBTQ+" community because we are not a monolith. We're a demographic of diverse people with different lived experiences. That's not to say there isn't media out there that is blatantly queerphobic and offensive, but the show isn't a black-and-white example of that.

LGBTQ+ media, like LGBTQ+ people, deserves to be just as varied. Not all LGBTQ+ media has to be teachable moments or wholesome content. Sometimes trashy queer folks like me just want trashy content. Y'know, like the straights get. It's not a progressive idea to hold our media to a higher standard than het media. If straight people can enjoy taboo content in their media, why can't we?

(Don't shoot me for this, y'all) but MODC included a relationship between a 30-year-old gay man and a high school teenager. Were you afraid that perpetuated the long-held, harmful stereotype of queer men being predators?

I'll probably post an actual review (my first ever on here!) once I decide how I want to rate this, but damn, I loved that finale. I usually hate it when a conflict is introduced and then quickly resolved, but in this instance, I'm glad the VP thing was wrapped to make way for fluff.

(While we're on the subject: MuRen, child, what kind of plan was that lmao? That was some dubious, wacky, convoluted hijinks that gave even YongJie pause)

A few highlights from this ep:
1) LiCheng going all-in on MuRen. LC reminds me a lot of HaoTing from HIS3 (before ~the incident~) in that he's a wild, extroverted fuckboy/himbo/jock who dives completely into his feelings without shame. I love those kinds of characters. I honestly might miss him the most.
2) XingSi swooning over YongJie. We didn't see that a lot even after they finally got together since XS was being the Level-Headed Big Brother. That made seeing him be the one to tease and break the rules all the more satisfying.
3) HIS4 did one of my FAVORITE things in this ep: I love it when the snooty, pretty female bully character is redeemed. I smiled so wide when ShaoFen offered MeiFang that olive branch--and MF shared her interests with her (go on, MF, convert the girl). I love women supporting women, y'all. Now I just need them to be girlfriends and go on double-dates with ChengReng. HIStory5 writers, make it happen!

Honorable mentions:
- LiCheng and MeiFang (and Sister Wang!) still being besties4life. You love to see it
- YongJie and XingSi making out in the library. That was fucking cute, man

I'm going to miss this show. A rewatch is def in my near future.

TODAY’S THE DAY, LADS. I’m doing a series rewatch while I wait for the finale . Let’s goooooo

Lol Dude no worries! This is just an MDL discussion, no need to apologize.

re: Mizoguchi, I'm glad you also agree it's essential to put the voices of those in the culture front and center. I couldn't agree more. As for my cut-off sentence… I'm gonna be real with you; I do not remember where I was going with this—the drawbacks of not taking my Adderall on the weekends lmao.

On my comment, that should be "our" initial point since that is how I would categorize the start of this discussion (do you?)

Those articles on BL specific because the sanitation of queerness is a much broader problem going on; what happened here/what happens in BL fandom is just a symptom of that. The sterilization of what is deemed a "bad image" for queer folks (in the case of our discussion, enjoying taboo content in a queer series) is an ongoing problem that has reached all corners of modern queer existence. Both articles highlight how making content/existing as a being that is deemed offensive by "normal standards" (and shedding light on who the people are setting those standards because it ain't The Gays!) is for heterosexual consumption more than queer liberation because policing queer creativity--be that the making of or the enjoyment of--does not help our community as a whole.

For the lily tribes article, try this JSTOR link: https://www.jstor.org/stable/41511580. For some modern demo studies, here's an article by researchers Madill & Zhao on Anglophone v Chinese BL fans. This includes tables for the hard numbers, but I highly recommend reading. The numbers will show Chinese BL fans are more likely to identify as heterosexual than Anglophone BL fans. However, their research uncovered something other researchers covering the same topic have not: adding a "Not sure" option to the sexuality question allows fans who are still questioning not to be boxed into "heterosexual" automatically.
https://www.academia.edu/44087843/Madill_A_and_Zhao_Y_2021_Female_oriented_male_male_erotica_Comparison_of_the_engaged_Anglophone_demographic_and_that_of_the_greater_China_area_Sexuality_and_Culture_25_2_562_583_https_doi_org_10_1007_s12119_020_09783_9

Excerpt:
"Mainstream culture in the greater China area highlights traditional family values,filial piety, and patriotism, and authorities and official media emphasize and promote the family as the essential unit of social stability (Mu2012). Hence, young people are expected to conform to normative gender roles and the heterosexuality implied. Leta et al. (2015) document how single Chinese women in their middle to late 20 experience social and familial pressure to marry and risk being denigrated as 'left-over women.' Hence, Chinese women involved in BL culture might be overly inclined to identify as heterosexual given public concern that BL could alienate them from taking up the role of wife and mother (e.g., Liu and Tang2012; Zhao2016)."

I believe Madill's survey is still ongoing too, and she's don't some talks on it and uploaded ppts to her Academia page if you want to browse through those.



"I could be wrong, but it seems like the articles you've linked are mostly about Japan's BL, manga, anime, and yaoi culture, and the BL that's having this much discussion is Taiwanese, obviously. "BL comes from Japan, and I think it's important not to remove a genre from its cultural context even if it has been adopted to other areas. The tropes, the words "yaoi" and "fujoshi," etc., all come from Japan. After all, the GoatJesus video you linked that started us down our link exchange was solely about Japanese BL. BL is broadly Asian, but it is a Japanese creation.

I haven't read much on Taiwanese BL specifically, though, since the focus when outside of Japan or the West is usually about Mainland China with small bits on broader Sinophone fandoms. What else is out there is in Chinese, unfortunately. I would like to find more of what is accessible out there, though. Last night, after gathering the above links, I went down an article rabbit hole--I go through those a lot--and came across this article about BL giving young girls in Taiwan the ability to challenge compulsory heterosexuality, hetero-patriarchal values, and gender norms. I'm not finished yet, but it's fascinating so far: https://web.uri.edu/iaics/files/06DienfangChou.pdf

That said, I don't think what I've included discounts anything. Our discussion has included links referring to BL in Japan to M/M romance novels and the perceived "straight *white* women" who write it, and Chinese dad-son story lovers. To be fair, you said, "BL's from Asia" (not Taiwan) are overwhelmingly "fetishizing fanservice for straight women.

Thank you for being open to discussing this with me! It's not every day two people with opposing views on the internet can talk civilly lmao so I consider this a win all around. Take care!

Getting someone drunk for the express purpose of having sex with them—because you know they would never do it sober—is assault. "Forcing someone to drink" is not a requisite for rape; XingSi drunk to excess because he felt safe around his brother and never would have dreamed he'd do what he did. That is not seduction. Taking advantage of someone (*assaulting them*) is not seduction.

"Yes, Your Honor, I got them drunk because I knew they would never sleep with me otherwise. BUT I know they wanted it even if they didn't know they wanted it, so it's all good!" is not a defense that would ever hold up in court or to another reasonable adult, like, anywhere in the world I assure you.

Enjoying problematic content is absolutely okay, but you have to be willing and able to identify what *is* problematic. I didn't think I'd have to explain such a thing to another adult (I presume/hope you are one). I'm not engaging with you further than this because your attitude is,,, something else, and your justifications are weak and victim-blamey. You be easy, Rahab75.

OK, now for the non-article bits:

"there's a real difference between two CONSENTING adults (or more than two adults, frankly, I'm not here to judge) and what we've seen in this drama and what I've seen way too much of over the years"
Hey, I don't like depictions of sexual violence in my shows either. Like most people, my squicks are inconsistent (shows = NO, written fiction = sure yeah). That said, I actually agree that what happened between YongXing was SA and I don't like people trying to whitewash it. It *was* SA, plain and simple. But I think that's getting away from ou initial point, which was about people who enjoy series that depict content like this not automatically being straight women who fetishize queer people because liking problematic things is not evidence of one's sexuality either way.

"I'm curious how many people here would be ok with this HIStory storyline if one of the characters was a woman." If XingSi was a woman, I don't think we'd be having this conversation at all. I can't imagine if this was an assault by a man to a woman that anyone would say people who enjoy the show weren't real straight people. The whole context would change imo. But if XingSi was a woman, I'd say the same thing I said before, just stripped down: That was obviously sexual assault, saying it wasn't doesn't make it so, but no, liking this show or liking that paring doesn't make you a bad person (or not heterosexual, or a bad heterosexual, etc.)

The idea that men can't be raped is prevalent in society, unfortunately. This is getting off-topic, but if you are interested in a (decidedly US-centric) view of how this goes on in heterosexual media there's a great video essay series on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw

re: academic articles, great! Here are a few:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/498987
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/454424/summary

And I'm so glad this article is actually publicly available: https://www.academia.edu/44938179/Queer_Affective_Literacies_Examining_Rotten_Womens_Literacies_in_Japan

This one isn't about fujo demographics, but it does explore why taboo subjects in BL appeal to BL fans of all genders. It looks at BL fans of father-son incest stories in China and their research concludes that taboo subjects are a way for people in oppressive societies with strict hierarchical rules to engage in fantasy play that broadens their inner-world https://www.academia.edu/10593733/Forbidden_love_incest_generational_conflict_and_the_erotics_of_power_in_Chinese_BL_fiction (open to read!)

Let me cover the articles you brought up first and I’ll circle back to the other stuff when I’m back home!

I’m glad you brought up Akiko Mizoguchi! She’s a scholar and also a lesbian who recently covered another Japanese fujoshi’s (Fujimoto Yukari) academic book in an article examining how BL can spark social acceptance for LGBTQ+ people globally. Thai BL is used as the specific example of this: https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/d00607/

I will point out that Mizoguchi said “women’s fantasies,” while you specifically said, straight women. When you said “queer audiences,” women are included, right? Not just straight women. And Mizoguchi certainly disagrees. Here is an excerpt from a paper she did on the subject:

“Responding to a critical tendency to treat male characters in yaoi as either the inaccurate and strange representation of gay men or the agents for heterosexual women to simulate male-female romance, this study starts with a premise that yaoi does not represent any person’s “reality,” but rather is a battlefield where straight, lesbian, and other women’s desires and political stakes clash and representations are born. This study uses an interdisciplinary approach that draws from feminism, queer theory, and cultural studies, and film and media studies. It finally argues that yaoi has an unprecedented potential to function as a lesbian and feminist genre.”

The paper is free to read here: https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=5822

Regarding the Electric Lit article, I’ll first say that I don’t consider Western M/M romance novels to be BL, but I do read those so I’ll cover it, too. I read the article, but it seems the author has fallen into the same trap you have. They assert that these novels are all written “by and for straight white women,” but they provide no evidence other than their author bios containing, quote, “husbands, children, cats, chickens, and love of artisanal cured meats.” I know I don’t have to point out that a woman having a husband does not mean she’s heterosexual—that’s just straight bi(and pan!)phobia right there. I also find it hard to believe that having children = heterosexuality. I DEFINITELY don’t buy having cats as indicative of heterosexuality.

Of course, this isn’t to say there aren’t straight white women with husbands and cats out there writing bad gay romances for “the wrong reasons”, but I’ll say reading this on the heels of a big name M/M authors coming out as nonbinary this year, it falls flat.

The Gay Star News article I have read before. I urge you to consider why a queer white woman (Shannon Power) from the West covering a genre she just learned about it considers it “straight women” while the queer Japanese scholar who is both from the cultural and in the fandom (Akiko Mizoguchi) doesn’t. This is important to keep in mind when examining which view holds more weight.

I personally hate things

No problem, I enjoy having discussions on these topics!

I definitely agree that sexual violence shouldn't be normalized. There are discussions to be had about issues surrounding that, but my comment was about (queer) audiences and the idea that what we consume defines us.

The opinion that BLs = fetishizing is def one that a lot of people have; I've encountered it a lot, and it comes off as dismissive and harmful when I know the intentions of the people who have it are (mostly) pure.

Like this: "BL is almost exclusively written by straight women." Can you give me some examples of popular BL artists that are straight? In my experience, mangaka rarely reveals personal information about themselves, including their sexuality. Are you saying they're straight women because they have identified themselves as straight, or are you assuming their sexuality based on the content they enjoy? Like I mentioned in my earlier comment, enjoy problematic content doesn't mean you're not queer. I'm enjoying HIStory4 quite a lot and I assure you, I'm still a big ol' lesbian lmao.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need more media by and for queer people! But I think you and I might have different definitions of what that means. To me, "by and for queer people" means... well, it was created by a queer person with queer people in mind. To me, that does not mean "wholesome, no problematic content allowed!" Because to be queer just means... being queer. It doesn't mean you have a particular set of morals or interests. None of those things should be what defines queerness.

Take for example Gengoroh Tagame. Yes, he created "My Brother's Husband," a moving manga about LGBTQ+ issues through the eyes of a young girl. But he also created a manga about a guy getting raped by a bull in front of a crowd and dungeon sex slaves. Those fucked up horny stories *were* written with a queer audience in mind—notice I said "a" and not "the," because queer people aren't a monolith. We're a diverse group with diverse interests. Not all queer men are into what Tagame's into, but enough are that he keeps writing what he likes. The stuff he's into doesn't make him less a queer man, does it?

I haven't watched that particular video, but the assertion that BL is just a cesspool of straight women "fetishizing gay men" is a long (and very tired) lie. So much so that people have compiled resources on it. Here's a quick carrd with links debunking those https://fujoshiproblem.carrd.co/

Here's a recent discussion on a podcast w/ an academic about the origins and misconceptions of the term "fujoshi" (female fan of BL): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-zWzcr5zqY. The academic in that article has an ongoing project that interviews BL fans across the globe. You can view those here: https://blfanproject.com/ I highly recommend reading those. It’s important to hear from actual BL fans themselves.

Here's a queer Japanese male activist talking about BL: https://youtu.be/VTKla_21ARU

Here is a talk two academics did (one a queer man, the other a queer woman) discussing fujoshi http://www.punkednoodle.com/champloo/2017/08/01/fujojocast-11-gay-manga-dialogues-thomas-baudinette/

Here’s an article about Japanese gay men’s attitudes toward fujoshi https://t.co/0N2ZC21lNj?amp=1

Here are some articles on why sanitizing queerness is a tool for heterosexual consumption, not queer liberation:
http://diversityrulesmagazine.com/2016/03/11/sanitizing-gay-culture/
https://thescarlet.org/17408/larts/monteros-backlash-and-reclamation/

(If you have access to academic journals through an institution I can also supply academic articles! I try not to leave too many things to just opinion/amateur analysis, especially from people outside the circle of what they're critiquing)

re: your comments shoujo manga, talked about yes! But I’m sure you’d agree those depictions don’t mean shoujo manga is a separate category from heterosexual stories, right? That was my initial issue with your comment. I’m just not comfortable with the idea that queer identity is predicated on what type of media someone enjoys.

I think we can go back to that "more queer media by queer people" line because we both agree on that, even if it seems we have different definitions of that. Maybe the answer here isn't "Less queer content that depicts _______" and just... "More queer content"? As a lesbian, I love a good story about finding yourself and the acceptance of sapphics ... but I also love kinky, problematic shit with ladies. This doesn't make me any less queer, it just means I'm a layered person. Straight people aren't the only ones allowed to like bad things without it defining their sexuality.


Does that make sense? Sorry this got so long!