vlinder

I love slow burn romances, but dare I say I like the business talks even more!?!? Within the business talks very interesting themes are hidden. Like breaking through traditions (older people have their set ways of thinking that don't gel well with modern theories, but is traditional thinking really obsolete), paying for the "sins"/errors of previous generations (ShiYan is working hard to make up for the failures of his father and much of his current behavior comes from how his father managed affairs and how it almost led to the ruin of the family business), and using investment as a vehicle that brings positive change in the world. I like that it paints a picture of business in China.

Yes, exactly. Isn't that what she is doing? Have MY and ZYL forgiven her despite all her efforts?

But, what I am arguing is that redemption doesn't need to look like being in a relationship together. It can also be in the form of co-existing peacefully without hatred.

ZYL can redeem himself all he wants. He doesn't need to be married to HQ to do so. And redeeming himself doesn't necessarily mean he needs to rekindle his relationship with HQ. HQ's own method of redeeming herself was distancing herself from this marriage and allowing him to be with his true love. If she could have gone back further I'm sure she wouldn't even have married him. So, in my opinion, any form of redemption from his part should also allow her to do what she wants to do and be with who she wants to be and I highly doubt that involves him. I also doubt she truly loved or loves him. I think she just wanted him at all costs (most likely for prestige or to advance her father's ambitions).

As for ZXW, I can only say the heart wants what it wants. Could he have exercised more patience? Sure. But I don't think the marriage was doable or even repairable. HQ didn't leave the marriage because of him. So, I'll give him a pass in this specific case.

True, many movies have done that but it's never as impactful as the first time you read it or see it. I agree that it needs to be done skillfully to pull off the surprise effect. I think he is a good candidate for it and I am closely watching him for any signs he could pull it off or any signs that the writer has this in mind.

I've been thinking about why people are so disturbed by ZiYu's trusting nature. I think most viewers are frustrated with him because they know for a fact that Yun Weishan and Shangguan are Wufeng assassins. Yet, if we didn't know that (if we knew as much as he did) would we perceive his actions differently? How would we view ZiYu, ShangJue, and YuanZhi if we didn't know who these girls were and what they were like - so if all we knew about them was what we saw on the surface?

On another note, I'm hoping his situation will be like a translated book I once read. I think its adaptation is called Krabat - the Sorcerer's Apprentice. In it the guy who everyone thought was the stupidest and most pitiful among them was actually the smartest and most strategic one. His stupidity was a mask to protect himself from getting killed. I remember how that blew my mind when I first read it because I never ever expected it. (This would be the opposite situation of my first paragraph)

I have only watched until episode 4, so perhaps my opinion will change with the newer episodes. My sense in watching the drama so far is that nothing is what it appears to be. The creators of the drama play with how much information they give you so I don't take anything at face value . For Yun Weishan, I get the sense that she is not fully informed on the mission and that complicates things for her. Shangguan has more information than she does. I get the sense that she is hearing the other out and playing dumb, but she's very calculated and cunning. Both women are manipulating each other. Shangguan is manipulative and knows how to get her way, but I wouldn't classify her as wise. For some reason, Wufeng is playing a game with these girls by withholding information from at least one of them and it's not clear what their agenda is for doing this. Yun Weishan is trying to figure out what the game plan is here (my impression so far).

With Gong ZiYu, I haven't decided if he's dumb or if he's playing dumb. Gong ShangJue, for me, doesn't come across as wise. My opinion of him might change but I'm not impressed so far. Until episode 4 no one has noticed that someone is playing with the tensions within the Gong family to take them down. They're so focused on the assassins and their hatred for each other. I suspect this was intentional. Again, I've not watched the newer episodes yet, so my opinion might change.

Love your observations! Especially the comparison between MM and TT.

Controversial views:

I don't have an issue with MM. Maybe it's because I don't really think the story needs romance.

Despite all of the complaints in the comments here, I actually think TT and RTZ are growing closer together. I loved seeing the complexity of RTZ's character in the past couple of episodes. He doesn't really see what he has and takes it for granted. He struggles between a modern world and a traditional world and doesn't really know how to combine them. He has complex relations with his father, his mother, and grandparents. And he's spoiled and privileged! Despite all this he hasn't really gotten under my skin like TT did in the first episodes with her childish behavior.

I think TT is healing for him. The contrast between both TT and RTZ's circumstances is causing both of them to reflect on their lives. Because of RTZ, among others, TT is growing and appreciating the opportunity she's been given (at first she was very ungrateful for it). Because of TT, RTZ is seeing what it is like to be rootless and learning how his parents express their love. And she is calling RTZ out on his bullsh** like giving her a hard time for lying when he does that himself. She's also the only one calling him out on what his true feelings for MM are. Even if he denies his feelings to TT, it is now something he is aware of and has to be mindful of. Someone should have done it a long time ago and I think his mother's insistence that MM leave would have been more fruitful if she had told him this was her concern. I feel he has really grown to appreciate and even admire TT.

RTZ has flaws, Dr Ren has flaws and Mrs Ren has flaws. They're only now coming out after TT's character is a bit more established (and she also has flaws - now that the initial childish flaws are gone, new flaws emerge like being unnecessarily noble and taking the blame for everything).

I am actually also enjoying the MM storyline. She's a kind girl. Her family has complex dynamics. She bears resentment toward her family that she isn't willing to confront. RTZ notices that she doesn't want to return, yet he still lets her return and then she runs away and sees how she regresses. I guess his opinion in demanding she stays is that it's too early to have her confront her family while his parents believe she needs to do it because she is disturbing the dynamics of the Ren family.

But she too is causing a lot of growth in the Ren family. Because of her his mother is realizing how she spoiled her son for the past 20 years and what the consequences are of this. Because of her, his father is seeing that his son has "the heart of a doctor" - the first complement I've heard come out of his mouth toward his son.

Those are my views so far and I am really enjoying the drama and the pearls of wisdom.

I don't know if this treatment is taboo. 🤔

Their original plan for her recovery was different but MM's parents refused to free up time and prioritize their daughter. Instead they shoved off their responsibility to someone else. They are currently taking over the function of the CCTV and maids that her parents had put in place for their daughter and continuously monitoring her (what TZ & TT are doing). Thus they have brought her into a more humane and warmer environment than she was in while recognizing that she can't be left alone. She is not being neglected, treated as a burden or in an environment where her parents are constantly bickering. And she seems to be responding to it. Instead of hiding under the sheets and being afraid she is actually warmly interacting with others (the patient in the wheelchair). They are also preparing her medicine but the full plan can't be executed unless the parents are present.

I think the mother cautioned TZ to keep his distance because she doesn't want her son to end up with MM (because I can't remember any real discussions of how his behavior is harming MM - I might have missed them). I, like you, am also wondering why they didn't take stronger measures when it appears that TZ might have more than professional feeling for her. But, as I said above, I am eager to find out "how this plays out, how she recovers and the thinking behind it." I don't think they'd put in this storyline if there wasn't something to learn from it.

"Its a good thing that the writers want to make a drama about Chinese medicine, but at the same time they are discrediting psychiatric help and probably make younger people believe that they can cure mental disorders by treating people like a baby and spoiling them."

But isn't the reason why you are taking that perspective and have adopted that thinking because Western science and medicine have discredited TCM and labeled it as a pseudo-science without fully understanding it? This is the stance that Peng Shi Yan takes in the drama. The Chinese person who is only willing to view the world from a Western perspective (for which he has more regard) and looks down on knowledge that took centuries to develop and refine. He throws every objection there is regarding this practice at them and they address it. What I am seeing is that TCM looks at a person holistically and doesn't only consider physical ailments but the mental, social and spiritual side of it as well. It takes a different approach to health and wellbeing. And I am eager to see how they solve this problem. Remember, before MM came to Dr Ren they exhausted the Western medical options available to them. While I can't say anything about the treatments that should be used in these cases, the ones that were didn't help. I assume this was well-researched as the drama is attempting to build the credibility of TCM.

Also, the show has a disclaimer which is impossible to miss and drives home the point that you can learn the practice of TCM but it takes years to become competent. So, I don't think there is any danger of people copying the mental health side of the practice without learning and mastering TCM first.

That said, I am also concerned with how much attention RTZ is giving MM and wonder why his parents aren't interfering more strongly but I want to see how this plays out, how she recovers and the thinking behind it.

Closing thought: My gut feeling is that Western medicine and TCM can co-exist and it's nice that we have so many options available to us in modern times.

Yep, agreed! It is indeed difficult to maintain distance when you're in each other's vicinity. I truly hope nothing bad happens.

Yep, I agree with your observations. It began with a grudge and perhaps a lot more has happened to fuel the grudge. But the level of anger is unreasonable and not TT's fault.

Also, I wouldn't say he has romantic feelings for MM. I think he is more infatuated with her. It will be a passing fleeting thing which is why I think it is dangerous for MM.

Also, I don't think that the Ren family is trying to overcompensate. I was wondering if that might be the reason why they haven't put a halt to whatever RTZ thinks he is doing. It surprises me that they let her move into the house in the first place especially since in the earlier episodes they said healing requires MM and her parents and the latter are missing in action (basically shoving off their responsibility to others). I understand the constant monitoring as MM might be a danger to herself and it is better to do it in a friendly environment rather than the hostile environment of a psychiatric ward. But both Mr and Mrs Ren have observed that RTZ has more than professional feelings toward MM (whatever those feelings may be) and they haven't truly stepped in to stop it. I am not a TCM practitioner so I was wondering if the overcompensation is the reason. Because my impression of them is that they are competent practitioners who put the wellbeing of their patient first.

Also, I don't think you need to overcompensate all your life. Only until MM starts showing normal behavior for her age. Yet, there is still danger in going that route and it will hurt MM more than RTZ. Again this is only speculation and me trying to understand why the Ren's haven't taken serious measures to stop their son.

RTZ's character is very problematic indeed. You see it from the very first scene. TouTou was late and perhaps she told an innocent white lie. Is that a reason to cancel the order someone took so much effort and invested money in to cancel? It shows no consideration. I've been in similar situations and it never even occurred to me to do something like that. At the most I'd complain at the restaurant or never order from them again. With complaining you at least get free food as compensation. 😂 And yes, she threw soup at him. I would be pissed too but to hold on to a grudge so long that you are willing to harm her (as in the last episodes)? Yeah, not normal!

But what I'm trying to say is that he made an overly-and-unreasonably-angry-person impression on me from the start. It is getting worse and his parents aren't helping. His mother is enabling his behavior by defending him and his father is overly critical of him thereby pushing him away. He has to live up to too high standards (the bar is set high). For TouTou it is easier because no one has expectations of her. So, every bar she surpasses surprises and is applauded by everyone. The too high standards in combination with the privilege and pampering he has received all his life is leading to a RTZ who is a little bit rotten at the core but has refined manners to hide it.

As for his relationship with Meng Meng, I think his father hit the nail on the head when he said that RTZ is doing this because he has feelings for MM because she is pretty and wealthy. I truly believe he is using the guilt excuse to justify his behavior to himself. What I don't understand is why his parents aren't considering the wellbeing of the girl and protecting her? Dr Ren lied to his patient's mother (about the death of the person she attacked) to help her so the methods are different from what would be considered ethical in the West. I was wondering if the overly protectiveness is helping a girl who otherwise doesn't receive attention from her parents? So overcompensating for something there was a lack of to strike a balance. 🤔

I only sympathize with the mistress on one point: her first love was taken away. After that her "misfortune" are all of her own doing and caused by the choices she made in her life. She was not a helpless victim in her undoing. Is she a bad person? Not sure, as I don't like qualifying people as bad or good. She, however, is mean and selfish and I find it difficult to be sympathetic toward those qualities.

As for Dr Cha, a relationship doesn't have to be physically abusive to be a bad relationship. She not only got cheated on and thwarted in her attempts to become independent, her husband refused to save her life when she when she was at the brink of death. The power balance in that relationship also leans heavily toward the man because he controls the resources. Just because you sympathize with the mistress, don't put what she has been through down.

"...it's not as if she doesn't have the money or time ..." The money is not her money. Nothing is in her name! If the husband left her before she decided to become independent, she would have no means to support herself. And I am slightly irked that you take the words of a woman who has neglected herself and her needs and prioritized everyone else before her. She is still transitioning into a place of empowerment. Was it her choice? Sure, but it is a choice made within the context of a culture that champions women who sacrifice themselves like this. And most likely, beside feeling guilty, this is what she thought a good woman does - again partially because the culture has defined it so. It takes time to realize that this mindset can be damaging and disempowering to a woman and to acknowledge that you deserve more.

The mistress, on the other hand, made a choice that she knows is wrong. I know of no culture where a mistress is championed for stealing someone else's husband and in South Korea I believe adultery was even punishable by law. I find it very interesting that you characterize Dr Cha as having made a choice but characterize the mistress as being a victim when she too made choices!

I was thinking that there could be a number of reasons pride, wanting to be chosen so bad (thus seeking validation) are among them.

Maybe it also started with wanting to take revenge on the FL. I can imagine feeling that way after your first love disappears under your nose just like that.

From her I also get a strong sense that she thinks the grass is greener on the other side. She does not know what a horrible fate she has been spared by not marrying the ML. She doesn't truly know what the FL has been going through. If she knew that the ML has no spine, if she knew he has no love in his heart, if she knew he is used as a puppet by his mother, if she knew how horrible the mother-in-law was and what she expected from a daughter-in-law I wonder if she would be fighting as hard as she has.

Yep, a lot needs to happen for me to be okay with the female lead not leaving her husband. He is pure scum! What annoys me to no extent is that the husband has his mistress whom he prioritizes to spend his time with. He could leave the FL at any time. What would she be left with? How would she take care of herself? Prior to her "awakening" she had no income of her own. Now she is starting to become independent. She is learning to stand on her own two feet so that if he left her she would be able to take care of herself. Yet he tries to thwart that initiative. The only thing she is allowed to be is a slave to the family who can be thrown away as trash when she is no longer needed.

For me, that is unforgivable and irredeemable! She does not have to end up with the hunky doctor (but I hope she does) but at this point I am truly hoping she does not stay with the scumbag of a husband! That relationship can't be repaired as there is no love and not even respect (which is the bare minimum) there.

I deeply love Dr Roy Kim, but perhaps because he has more Western values and doesn't believe a woman should be treated like that by her husband. FL is rooted in traditional Korean values. I find Korean traditional culture truly beautiful in general but it hasn't always been kind toward women (nor has Western culture for that matter but I feel women have gained a bit more ground in the West). Yes, trying to make the marriage work and not get a divorce easily is important, but the husband left the marriage ten years ago when he took a mistress! It can't be her sole responsibility. Also, the elder in the family (the mother-in-law) is truly toxic toward her and only considers her ambitions for her son. So, there can't be a resolution that is healthy for her. I hope she realizes that in the coming episodes. I hope she doesn't see this as her failure and gathers her courage to leave her husband too by divorcing him.

I think this drama really tries to discuss one of the driving forces behind why there is a reluctance to get married and have children in this day and age in Korea (as I hear it discussed by women and men on YouTube). Perhaps it tries to speak to both young women and those stuck in toxic relationships. I am happy it at least tries to discuss it with humor because these are heavy and loaded topics. And I agree that the writer will get backlash if they don't wrap it up well.

First of all, I am not taking the topic seriously. You asked a question, I gave you an answer within the context of the drama and dramas.

Secondly, I think you and I are saying the same thing by saying let’s enjoy the drama with its “bad” and “good” characters.

Thirdly, I’m sorry for your surroundings and your experience growing up. You are obviously a strong person and I applaud the fact that you despite your difficulties followed your inner moral compass. Not everyone is lucky enough to have one (and I have seen this in real life). You are born either with this moral compass, you learn by example or you learn by trial and error. If he was perfect there would be no need for him to develop. In my comments I am not making excuses for him. I am pointing out that it is quite natural for him to have developed these traits. You might have developed positively in your surroundings but by your own admittance others have not. So, it is not implausible that he would fall in the latter group. But his experiences are setting him up for an opportunity to change. So, the comment “no excuse” to me sounds a bit unforgiving toward the character and taking him too seriously. Have some patience with his flaws and watch him develop (or not, let's hope that doesn't happen 😂). And above all things, enjoy the drama! ☺️

I completely agree with you. What better teacher than Qing Kui who has witnessed how her sister was treated (not being favored)?

And what I especially love in the other couple's love story is the aspect of learning to love the different aspects of a person. I thought the greed aspect of YQ was especially powerful. How many of us would not be repulsed by someone who is that greedy (that he picks up a coin out of sewerage water) and that frugal (that he doesn't want to marry cause a wife costs money)? Wouldn't we shut them down because these traits are not on our list of desirable traits we like to see in our significant other? But loving someone is ideally loving and at the minimum tolerating all the different aspects in them. In the story YT has to deal with this aspect in YQ. I haven't seen how this story line concludes but I thought it was really original. I think that in real life we do as YQ did in the Heavenly Realm: shutting off those emotions and traits within us that are unattractive, for which we will be judged or that hinder us in dealing with daily life. The story seems to be saying that we need to find a way to embrace these aspects in ourselves.

Anyway, I love how YT is dealing with it and how she teaches YQ to deal with his emotions.

Love this drama!

Honestly, I don’t like black and white depictions of people. I find most dramas have this black and white portrayal and don’t give the villain a back story. They don’t tell you what are the heartbreaking moments that lead up to the socially unacceptable deeds that they do. They don’t tell you about the breaking point that is pivotal in the person’s life. They demonize the villain rather than humanize them because the story is always about the hero who needs development. The more evil the villain, the more valiant the hero seems. That seems to be the only purpose of the villain: making the hero look good. I think the South Korean drama Extraordinary You really gives a good commentary on that though the hero of the story is a side character and not a villain. When you humanize a villain it gives the story more complexity. Things are not as simple as vanquishing the demon. It helps place things in perspective. It gives more food for thought.

I like that in this story, the third prince is more “human.” He is a flawed “human” but nonetheless “human.” And perhaps this is only so because in his story he isn’t truly the villain. His father, second brother and step mother are the villains and we don’t see their story. He lives in his societal context and is trying to survive in it. Their values aren’t our values, but can you blame him for having the basic “human” drive of trying to survive by all means possible? Can you blame him for having developed the skill of lying as a method to protect himself? It isn’t a good skill to learn but it fits in his context. It pushes all of our buttons, especially as women/men who don’t want to be lied to and played as a fool by someone we are so vulnerable with. But when you suspend judgment and just watch the drama in its context, it gives the story more complexity. You love him for his good qualities and hate him for his bad qualities and both sides are at war within yourself.

Ultimately, in this love story he is learning how to love. He is learning how to treat the person he loves well and Qing Kui is doing a good job of teaching him how to do just that. And I love it! I love the main couple too, by the way.

So true! LOL