Kim Yoonmi 김윤미 金潤美

He got the book back in his time, remember? She wrote his name in the book and it returned to him, so that meant that when he went back to his time, and saw the picture, and remembered her, then he had control of the book again. So he could write as he liked in the book.

Li Ming Shi, the male lead.

My guess is that she was really a goddess the entire time. They did say she'd cultivated over 500 years. She also said she was willing to give up immortality for him, but maybe her good deeds made her immortal.

The other option is that he ran into the forest and metaphorically died, and thus met her after doing good for the country. You know about fog in Chinese dramas...

This is pure speculation... but he was forcefully outed in 2018 by an ex-boyfriend. He claims to be bisexual, I think... though articles keep saying he's gay.

In the last few months Taiwan stopped banning same sex marriage and allowing more BL content, but China has started to ban "Pretty boys" and "lots of make up" and some fans felt emboldened to go after actors who were in BL dramas previously, such as Simon Gong. Yeah...

So him forced out of the closet+Chinese government restrictions which has included banning al BL dramas means that he's going to have trouble landing roles in China.

This leaves Taiwan, but he hasn't been in that many Taiwanese dramas lately.

This is my best guess. And yes, it sucks.

I did hear some rumors some while back of him being in a BL drama after him coming out, but I don't see it on the list, so it might have gotten canned?

There is a difference between asking for equal playing field so that people are on the same terms and pure condescension. Giving terminology and hoping people actually use a search engine so they can engage in the conversation with actual examples, is telling the person to catch up. Asking people to do research on terminology gives them a fighting chance so they don't look like they don't know what they are talking about and have a chance to consider and edit. This is different from pure condescension, which would have been I gotcha type statement or going after their person. I went purely after their arguments and said they were weak because they didn't seem to have comprehension of the topic, so I gave them a chance to study and come back with a better argument. This is called fair play. Because annihilating them serves no one.

If someone doesn't know the terms in an argument, do you go around and stomp all over them, say they won't have a chance to revise and then go on and insult their intelligence, or let them know how and why this is the case and let them revise? Knowing about the given topic more isn't condescension. It's simply knowing more.

BTW, I believe linking is limited on this website., otherwise I would have linked.

Notice that I also marked and liked other aspects of the show, but I did comment that the show was lacking in *this* area and was commenting on it as a Korean. 'cause it's my right to engage in feminism in that context. Pointing this out because I know that selection bias can occur when someone makes a negative comment on a drama. I did sandwich it properly.

I'm engaging with the show critically because Koreans do this sort of thing, too. We tend to question and engage with our media more. For example, the King and the Clown led more people to support gay rights. So, I chose the easiest tools out of Feminist Critical Theory (More jargon--basically use feminism to analyze and critically think about the media) and that were searchable.

"For example, look at your justifications for Ji Seong and Sang Woo: Ji Seong sacrifices herself for Sae Byeok, yet you label Ji Seong's sacrifice as "semi-fridged"; Sang Woo sacrifices himself for Gi Hun, and you conclude he wasn't fridged at all."

You're forgetting systemic differences as well in your argument. That's why I encouraged people to read "Women in Refrigerators" trope, which should cover things like the systemic difference in society of being a man v. a woman. This is true in Korean society, perhaps a bit more sharply than say the US, UK, and other European and European Diaspora countries. Fridged men in media, are rare. Fridged women in media are plentiful.

Sang Woo sacrifices himself for Sang Woo, but Sang Woo's motivations were far more clear and it really didn't do much to make Gi Hun feel like he needed to "go on" and wasn't explicitly used to cheer on the male hero.

Sae Beok was fridged (pickpocket for those not keeping track) because what did Gi Hun do right after that? He attacked Sang Woo outright. Because it was Sang Woo's fault. And then that gave him motivations for the last game.

Sang Woo's specific sacrifice isn't held up to the same level as Sae Beok's.

Ji Yeong (I think you mean Ji Yeong) was semi-fridged. She really didn't change the motivations of Sae Beok or spur her on to do better that much. But the power dynamic is also not quite there. Still, she was mentioned as a reason to "go on" by Gi Hun later. She also had time to be fleshed out more as a character. Most fridged characters aren't defined more than an appendage to their male counterparts. (Say like Mr. Freeze's wife, Nora isn't much more than "Mr. Freeze's Wife" That's why I put her as semi-fridged, though the fleshing out was one episode.

The basic outlines for fridging are:

1. Was there violence done to the character?
2. Did it enhance or change the motivation for a surrounding character?
3. The points go up if the character is a cis male because of systemic discrimination. (Which is higher, as noted in South Korea than other locations.)

BTW, if you wanted to defeat my argument, you'd have to argued how it's not the case, rather than asking me to prove it is true. How was Gi Hun's mother not suddenly fridged?

Instead of going for the "But the men were fridged too." argument which then leaves me with the card of, "But systemic discrimination makes the fridging of the women far more problematic than men, which was the whole point of coining it."

Which is to say, I'll give you time to revise your thesis and rethink it. Because you've basically giving me the win by saying, "But some of the men too." while I've said the majority of the women were fridged.

"Your comment about 'Sexy Lamps' is extremely disingenuous. The poster signified "men," not "man," when referring to the 'Sexy Lamps.' There were, indeed, male workers in body paint who also acted as 'Sexy Lamps.'"

Not really. 'cause you didn't look up the definition from what you said--I can tell you didn't look it up as how you've used it here. I said it was enhanced later when women were made into objects for rich men. See systemic discrimination again.

The easier path is to argue that the women did have agency. But as you didn't take that argument, and I already argued when they did have agency, and that was taken away from them... I'm guessing you don't think you can win that argument. I'm complaining about the later episodes.

As for the Mako Mori test. I see you, again, don't understand what it's about or why it's used for analyzing works of fiction. Again, look at Systemic discrimination. The male version of this would be if they only live and exist for the women. In which case, you can kinda argue that for New Moon of the Twilight series by Stephanie Meyer. Kinda, because there are secondary motivations for the male characters in that. But here, there are secondary motivations and backgrounds given to the male characters.

You railing against my definition of agency: Counter it if you want to challenge me.

You ask for proof, etc and my thinking, but give no counters.

None of these feminism tests are "perfect" but they are intentionally set out to be super low bars to pass to honor the bare bones of feminist thinking and discourse.

I see you're short on knowing what ownvoices means and the impact it has on words.

It means I get to speak about it as a Korean to a cishet Korean man, because I know how gender works within the society, and have a large cultural context for speaking about it that outsiders would not. It means I'm an expert by living as the ethnicity I am because I have to actively engage with the gender norms of Korea in a way apparently you don't.

So... to recap... I'm giving you, also, a chance to look up all of the terms I used. To recognized that gender is different in different countries, so that I might be a bit more expert than you on why it's more problematic than usual to do these things. And also, it seems you're short on knowledge about systemic discrimination? You don't seem to understand why representation of minority groups having violence against them even if it were equal in the fiction is problematic. Also, you ask for proof with no counter arguments and talk of condescension, when I'm purely talking about the drama and playing fair. It might not be the opinion YOU like, but that does not mean you can't try to understand, or that it makes my opinion or concerns about the drama less valid. Agreeing is a futile sport of the internet. I get backfire effect, though. 'cause I disagree with you, you have to find a way to make me out to be "other". Because what if the drama did have issues with those things? Does it really take away from your personal enjoyment of the drama?

There are problematic works I enjoy, but also critically analyze so that I know that others can do better.

Given that, I don't think it's fair to debate you at this time. I'll give you a fair chance to read up on systemic discrimination, gender norms of Korea, the terms you're misrepresenting, and regroup and try again.

Can you disprove that the women were fridged? How did they pass the Mako Mori test? And the Sexy Lamp test? They did pass the Bechdel test, as I outlined. But is that enough to really call it a feminist work? Can you come up with a better definition of agency? 'cause I do have sources, but it's likely without your own sources, you will try to make me do all the labor, without doing your own, and frankly that's not a fair debate, is it? I do all the labor and you get the benefit? You challenge, you come up with better evidence to back YOU.

The terms is "fridged". Not Fringed. The trope is called is "Women in refrigerators." You can look it up and educate yourself.

There is a difference between "Testing Sang Woo's principles for the audience" and using women to give motivation to a man.

The difference is that all of the things I listed were "to give motivation for the men" within the context of the story, not to show the audience what the men were made of. There is a difference in doing violence against women, just to make the man feel like he needs to go on and do things, versus a test of his character. I see you're not a writer, otherwise you'd know the difference. In which case, research before replying.

Sexy Lamp is a test of agency--you don't seem to know the sexy lamp test or what agency is. The sexy lamp tests says that the women are only there to be turned on or off, but serve no purpose in the story. Again, your nearest search engine could have given you the definition. Actually read it before commenting.

Agency is the ability to change the course of events by making a decision and then impacting the decision of others with an outcome. In that scene which you referenced: He had agency. He made a decision to say yes. He made a decision to then pull out his gun and grab the guy by the balls. That changed his outcome because the man told him what he needed and let him go. That is agency. Made a decision that influenced the rich white guy (to be acted upon) who changed his decision, which changed the character outcome and then the character outcomes of the other characters around him. (In this case his brother--who then shot him.)

With the tug-of-war, the problem is who came up with the change of outcome and knew enough to change the fate of the characters? It wasn't Mi Nyeo. Mi Nyeo cried, but that didn't actually change anyone's outcome. Because her crying didn't make anyone doubt enough to change anything.

Agency works like that.

So, yes, I'm looking at both. And it looks like you have some jargon to look up since you don't know what those terms mean and you couldn't even assess the Mako Mori test because you don't know what the Mako Mori test is.

I used jargon because it takes a while to go over the terminology and the history of the problems with it in both Korean and worldwide media.

I'm ticked, as a Korean, because I'm seeing more of a trend of fridging in dramas, and it's not OK. I get to claim that as a Korean and call out the director for bad behavior as a Korean cisman.

Fridging: All of the women foregrounded were fridged.

Fridging is a thing where you brutalize or kill a woman in order to usually give motivation to a man. The thing was that the men weren't fridged, then the women were. Let's go over the deaths.

Han Mi Nyeo: Technically not fridged, but her portrayal wasn't really the best for women. Femme Fatale named "One Pretty Woman" really? !@#$
Gi Hun's mother: Fridged: She was maimed and that gave motivation for Gi Hun to go to the hospital.
Kang Sae Byeok (Pickpocket): Fridged. Severely fridged. I was hoping she wasn't going to be fridged, but she gives Gi Hun a reason to try to take down the last remaining teammate.
Pick Pocket's friend: Semi-fridged.
Wife of that one player: Fridged. She's the impetus to make her husband commit suicide. We barely know much about her besides that.

Let's compare that to some of the male deaths.
Ali wasn't fridged: It didn't give extra motivation to Gi Hun. Gi Hun was sad, but said nothing could be done.
001: Not fridged. Didn't give Gi Hun extra motivation to do anything.
111: Not fridged. Was taken down by a femme fatale. You were supposed to cheer for his death.
Glassmaker: semi-fridged, but forgotten quickly.
Hwang Joon: Not fridged. He was shot by his brother, but didn't serve to change the motivations of the antagonist.
Sang Woo: Killed himself. I wouldn't really count him as fridged, since it's the game Gi Hun attacks later, not saying Sang Woo is the specific reason.

Fridging ticks me off. Women don't serve as the motivation for men.

Let's go over the way the backgrounds are assigned.

Pickpocket: North Korean defector, but her motivation for being in the game is her brother in the foster care system. (Said episode 8). She fails the Mako Mori test outright. She doesn't have dreams for herself.
Gi Hun's mother--pretty much only there to get fridged. Super irked. The actress has a lot more range than that.
Han Mi Nyeo: There to be a femme fatale and for a sex scene. She does help figure out one game, but her role after that is pretty much to irritate the audience. By that time, I was more annoyed at the director/writer (who are the same person).
Gi Hun's ex-wife: Motivation. Not quite fridged, but still an appendage.
Gi Hun's daughter: Motivation for the ML. Ditto about being an appendage.
Wife of that one player--fridged, but she's the wife of that player, not a person in of herself.

Most of them did not pass the Mako Mori test. Han Mi Nyeo said she wanted out of the game so she could name her son.

And later in the show, most of the women are sexy lamps. They lack agency.

The majority of the games and how to defeat them, came from the men, not women. Defeat tug-of-war: 2 men. One woman to cry about it, and then make fun of her for crying.
Defeat the glass jumping: 2 men mostly. (Glass maker)/ Sang Woo
How to conduct the game of marbles: First shown by men.

The only one that came from women was what was the game for Dalgona. But ultimately how to defeat it mainly came from Gi Hun. There was Mi Nyeo burning it, but the largest benefit came from a man.

So by the time the majority of the women were gone I was hoping we wouldn't end up with a fridging, but nope, gotta fridge that last woman, and also use women as sex objects on screen, which instead of highlighting the rich men's abuse, kinda highlighted the failures of the show to address the problems with sexism for me, while it was going over other type of diversity.

And the thing is, I've seen Korea do better than this.

Probably in the minority here, and so I'm going to hide some spoilers to justify my reasoning.

I thought the show was excellent at showing problems with migrant workers in Korea and how they are often treated unfairly. Along with North Korean defectors, people in debt, raising questions about organ donation (particularly the scarcity of them in Asia), questions about status and education, and played with things like skills.

Unlike a lot of people, though, I've watched a truckload of survivor games, mostly Japanese. Too many to list, and this tastes the most like Liar Game and Battle Royale. Basically splatter punk Liar Game.

So I was disappointed with how women were represented. And I've been told, "But the women were strong" No, no, they definitely were not. The majority ended up fridged. The one woman that didn't get fridged ended up being a literal femme fatale after being named pretty much femme fatale. Seriously? Isn't that lazy?

The women were defined in terms of the men. The sister of. The wife of. The lover of. The daughter of. And that also felt super lazy.

And finally, the diminishing agency. By the end, it kinda felt like sexy lamp test applied, or shove the lamp into the freezer. And by that time I was cursing the director in Korean since I was 100% sure the director was a male. Bechdel Test did get passed... but really, director? You had to fridge all the women, eh? You couldn't center any of the issues women have while degrading women?

They lifted it from Liar Game... It's Liar Game meets Battle Royale. BTW, both are known in Korea as Korea imported and adapted Liar Game before. Liar Game also has the same hierarchy system.

(Speaking as a Korean, BTW), so they want a season 2, they basically copy the format of Liar Game which didn't reveal the hierarchy, etc. But definitely they added a lot of other social aspects along the way, but flubbed the women.

Yes, happy ending for the leads, but the ending doesn't feel like the ending.

I feel super sad for the victims in this above all else. I hope they get the justice they seek. However, I also kinda wanted to watch the drama, so I hope they get back some of the money from Kris Wu tanking his own career and are able to replace him somehow in the future, though I hope it's not CGI, because the last rape scandal made me hate that actor forever and I couldn't stomach his dramas even when he "came back." (Park Si Hoo). I still found is distasteful that he was able to come back so soon after his scandal. But the people who watched the drama said he was the worst and watched it for everyone else, so I felt satisfied.

Still weird, though, how the punishments go down, because Kim Rae Won, was banned for a lot longer than Park Si Hoo for punching a guy in a parking lot because he thought his friend (female) was getting sexually assaulted. He managed to get banned five years for that. But Park Si Hoo, if memory serves was like what? 2 years? And got off with no punishment? WTF is wrong with Korea.... (saying this as a Korean). Marginally hoping China will be better?

Either way, I hope that the now-women and girls get justice, but I also feel sad that the hard work of the other cast and crew won't air and the drama will be forever marred by this scandal. And Kris Wu better never have a comeback on my screen. I don't need another Park Si Hoo. I can't see him without bfeeling sick, though pre-scandal I really liked Prosecutor Princess and sometimes want to watch it again until I remember he's in it (granted for the main actress because she really seemed to enjoy that role.)

Several women who were underage girls at the time (16, etc) said he pressured them into having sex with him in exchange for show business deals that never went through. It's a rape scandal.

Go Ahead gave me more squick feels than this one. This one felt more clean because they do flashbacks and you can feel like their relationship wasn't a true sibling relationship from the beginning. The acting is also leagues better in many ways. There's more layering.

It's mostly a slow drama without major dramatic triangles. It is a true slice of life, though it kinda drags towards the end with some added drama (it's kinda ironic that adding more conflict towards the end makes it drag). But the family and friendships often take center stage and it's not all about the protagonists.

No kiss scene. A few hugs, but nothing really big and romantic. It's a pretty PG drama. It's because the lead actress, Ancy Deng was 16 at the time of filming and the male lead, Zhang Ling He, was 8 years her senior. (Ancy Deng's parents were supervising). The casting is really good, but it came with limitations.

Apparently they are planning to do at least 2 other series following this one (but being China it might not pan out) that will follow them through their college and married life, like the book. By the second series she will have reached the age of majority and then they might put in a kiss scene.

For now, it's not in this series.

I stuck out Love and Redemption and it surprised me in the second half.

Novel starts with their later incarnations and the novel hasn't updated to the end yet in translations, so there is no physical description of Bai Jue. There is, one, hoever, for Bai Xuan, but I suppose that would be spoilers.

It was gradual, and started for him around the hug waaaay back near the beginning. His gestures softened after that, and his mouthy Qilin spoke out his true inner feelings.

Also, hating on female characters as a female for having a female voice and acting feminine is so much internalized misogyny... where do we begin? Did you notice while going on and on about that... that the female lead, unlike some of the other female leads this year passed all of the basic feminism tests? Bechdel, Mako Mori and Sexy Lamp test? Not only did she do that, she managed it in 2 episodes and maintained it. But NOPE, hate on the female character for having a female voice and being feminine. *sighs* the priorities are wrong.

Maybe being habituated to 5-act has ruined your sense of what dramas should be. Exploring the world and seeing more, from the comforts of your own home might help you greatly, plus you'd understand more if you understand the basis of Chinese literature, I'd think.

5-act puts emphasis on conflict, but this story isn't about conflict, it's about transition--transitioning towards being more adults.

I'd still say that your comments make it seem that you are focusing on the conflict aspects, rather than how the characters grow and change over time. And that's totally a symptom of loving on 5-acts, but not being able to appreciate any of the other dramatic structures of the world. But I think it does good to at least learn about it so you can enjoy Chinese media better.

The dialogue from episode 1 goes back and forth between sibling rivalry to old couple who has been married for years. It's really subtle.

Episode 7? Female lead watches male lead dance with her best friend and thinks they are dating. She shows signs of jealousy and posts them dancing together.

The next episode, they establish that the female lead, Xixi (though covered lightly before has always liked Duan Ran.

Also, he holds her by the waist when they watch the Pineapple CEO leave, which is not a brotherly body language. She lets him pull her closer.

Also, she gets excited when he talks affectionately to her in his office and tells her friend about it.

Her best friend sets up Xi Xi to go on a date with Duan Ran, they loudly argue about how this isn't a date, while both seemingly pleased about the idea and talk about their first loves, but there is heavy indication from the scene that the Duan Ran and Xi Xi both broke up with their sig others not just because of the physical distance, but because they liked each other from the beginning. (Her friend earlier made such a comment too--that breaking them up is hard.)

Thoroughly drunk, Duan Ran makes a sideways confession (Episode 9) to Xi Xi, asking why they never dated, when they can do things like share toothpaste and live in the same house. It half sounds like a marriage proposal as well. Xi Xi is about to answer, when he picks up a call and tries to shove the confession aside. It's clear he really does like Xi Xi in that scene and is asking her to date him, though going about it in a round about way. (The bit about sit here longer with me and putting her head back was well-mapped. Showed that he has the same feelings towards her.)

So there are romance scenes, but it's very understated. Sometimes, I feel like he left the country to try to flush his feelings for her, but didn't succeed at all. Because the first thing he did was try to see her. The little flashes give short thrills along the way.

In Episode 17, they are in the car together, and he holds her intimately against his chest and comforts her.

Episode 18, they both show signs of jealousy towards each other and bicker over it.

So it's really slow burn, but it's there. Don't be spoiled by idol romances with heart-pounding amount of conflict borrowed from 5-act. This is more about transitioning into adulthood.