DramaAjumma

Well, to me it's just another side to the same coin.

That's my problem with your OP. You used the word "abuse" but it's not technically abuse. I have nothing against other people's preferences or dislikes but I do insist on the accurate use of words and facts. :D They were not in any kind of familial or romantic relationship. She was acting suspiciously and by her own words was trying to poison him. They weren't friends nor allies at the time.

Xiang Liu himself knows better than anyone else whey they can't be together so this isn't about the romance for me at least.

Not everyone is cut from the same cloth and I accept that. But my problem is that pesky word "deserve". And the crazy notion that Jing is "better" than all the rest.

I'm not blaming Jing for getting the girl. I'm explaining why the narrative structure itself demonstrates the foundational flaws of this relationship and why he lost her in this first phase of the show. People say that he "deserves" her. I don't agree with that characterization.
I don't disagree that she could have found someone and she had resolved to but is it so easy for anyone just to move on if they were actually serious? He made promises to her. She made promises to him. He kissed her and gave her hope. Sure, he got tricked by his family but he didn't take that threat seriously enough despite being tortured by his brother.

Are you saying that he has no agency while Xiao Yao does? I'm confused.

None of these guys are perfect. We should be able to accept the flaws of every character. Nice is good at times but not always. It's certainly not adequate to deal with external threats. This is not a romantic comedy, it's still a political show with historical elements.

I can't wait for this show.

This is all prior to the Geneva Convention too. :D
I don't think some people watch historical dramas the way you and I do.

Honestly I shouldn't have to read the book to understand what's going on. I'm just talking about what I've seen in this first season. Yes, I've seen the trailers and I know what's coming.

I've said exactly the same thing. His passivity about his family is far more dangerous because he doesn't have the wherewithal to protect her. He can't even protect himself from his own family. And you're so right to point out that Tushan Jing was actually considering dragging her into the hornet's nest knowing all that family baggage. There seems to be an underlying selfishness in this. There's no nice way to put it.

The show itself also demonstrated that he was hapless/helpless to protect her all throughout this first phase of the show. Even in those early days at Qingshui Town. When she was assassinated, he ran to her side but fell into a coma soon after. But it was Xiang Liu who saved her life and then sent her back to her family afterwards. Honestly there are several occasions on the top of my head that I can think that Xiang Liu could have just given in to his own feelings.

I think I need to get this off my chest.

It is quite clear from the narrative that all three potential suitors have something in their lives that prevent them from being able to be committed to Xiao Yao wholeheartedly at this point in the story. The difference is Cang Xuan and Xiang Liu know this and accept this reality. It isn't because they don't love her or love her less than Tushan Jing. It is because they know that if they get involved with her at this point in time, it will end up hurting her or putting her in harm's way. As it so happens, they are correct because of where they're at in terms of their long-term goals. However, in the case of Cang Xuan, Xiao Yao voluntarily puts herself in the danger zone using what power she has to help him. To say that these guys love her less than Tushan Jing is absolutely wrong. Indeed it is nonsensical. Because they love her, they made a different choice. The problem with Tushan Jing is that... in my view... he was in a hurry. He felt insecure because he had an inkling or two about the relationship between Xiao Yao and Xiang Liu. For some reason he believed that this prior engagement he had with Fangfei Yiying wasn't much of an obstacle and neglected to mention it when he was making all kinds of promises to Xiao Yao. Maybe he thought he could just persuade Grandma and all would be well. He would get the girl and live happily ever after. However, for some reason he didn't consider the fact that his entire family would become a hindrance to his happily ever after. Was he naive? That's the kinder spin. Was he being a little bit deceptive? I'm inclined to think so. Because he's had a history with his older half brother and prior to that there was bad blood between his mother and said brother. Fangfei Yiying was downright recalcitrant. Rightfully he should have dealt with all this before committing himself and Xiao Yao to the courtship process. But he was desperate to hold on to her any which way. However as a result of his inability to deal decisively with family issues, he ends up not just hurting himself but her. His real enemies has never been other men in Xiao Yao's life, it is right in his own backyard. Whatever you think of him, there is a personality flaw that must be addressed. These are the facts and have nothing to do with whether I dislike him.

The writer I don't think is saying that one guy is more deserving of her over all the others. That kind of vocabulary doesn't exist in this situation. Timing is part of the story. But more importantly Tushan Jing gets the girl because of the good will of other people. It's more the case that the other men "let him" because they love her and they believed for a time that he could make her genuinely happy.

But the whole point of Xiang Liu is that he is a demon who happens also to be in charge of a secret military camp. She is lucky that he didn't kill her for trespassing. If she was indeed found guilty of spying, it would be execution on the spot. She was quite willing to form a transactional relationship with him to save her own skin. He was willing to go along to observe her. The only reason why he whipped her was because he wasn't sure if she was a spy and in the context of that story is punishable by death. Whipping her was to put the fear of God in her. As far as the remnant Chenrong army is concerned they are at war with the Xiyan royal family. Spies can compromise an entire military operation. Not to mention the location of the army base.

Let's not forget too that she was behaving suspiciously and speaking glibly which could be easily misunderstood as someone having something to hide. He is well aware that she's not being entirely forthcoming about her identity either.

This is a show about gods and monsters with throne politics, it's not a romantic comedy. I see a lot of comments saying that Xiang Liu was really bad in those episodes. Frankly speaking... he could be a lot worse and he would still be justified.

I loved the way he talked to Fenglong and Xinyue after the assassination attempt on Xiao Yao.

I know who you're talking about but I don't have any problems as someone who knows the language because many younger actors don't always get it right in the early days.

Sure yeah. Thanks for asking.
https://40somethingahjumma.substack.com/

I love that you mention Steve Rogers because he is a nice guy that I really like but while he's not ambitious, he has principles that he believes in. A man without that is a nothing even if he is the best lover in the world.

This "real life" argument doesn't apply anyway because a show with gods and monsters operate under a different set of rules.

I feel that I'm really getting old because you'd think that used to be common sense. But I guess my generation (X) and the boomers are probably to be blamed for the state of things. :P

You've highlighted one of the problems of contemporary Hollywood and their independent girl bosses. It doesn't seem to be working all that well for them in large part. Honestly the fact that women who make up most of the viewership of Asian dramas still prefer romance above all other genres is telling. The data is undeniable especially on this site where romance shows even with the thinnest of plots get higher ratings than better written shows in other genres. The showrunners know this which is why they insert romantic plots in the vast majority of their shows.

It's a fascinating contradiction that you thrown a spotlight on and I wish you got more likes for pointing it out. I think we had that conversation earlier in that thread when I raised the Puppy male phenomenon. He is as much a fantasy trope as the Bad Boy who Comes Good. No such man exists. Nor should he. But I just have a really tough time imagining any man especially of an aristocratic status in the ancient world who goes around weepy over a woman when he has so many responsibilities and is the leader of his clan. I can imagine him fighting for her or killing for her or giving up and just moving on. This is my one criticism of this story. It's tonally jarring and takes me out of the experience. Even if he misses her, his eye would always be on the big picture. Even in our day if a man was this slavishly devoted, we'd be questioning his motives and his family members would be prodding him to have a bit more spine.

I don't think people care about equality as much as we think. What I think is going on is who gets to dictate the terms of the relationship rather than a process of accommodation.

I write from the perspective of a story analyst and drama reviewer. As far as I'm concerned critiquing characters, performances, showrunners and authors are fair game. If anyone publishes a work to be seen publicly, they are potentially opening themselves up to criticisms. That said I think we can have civilized discussions about our differences in opinion. Commenters should have the right to say why they like certain characters over and against other characters without having to justify it. Not liking characters is a normal part of reviewing a show. The trick is to avoid taking these criticisms personally as somehow a direct attack on your own preferences. In a reverse harem situation people will always have male leads they like over and above others. It's normal. We all come from different backgrounds, have different life experiences, different exposure to stories. It's not helpful to presume we know what people are thinking and why they think the way they do. Lost You Forever is a show about gods, monsters and throne politics -- how does that reflect any part of our 21st century everyday realities and sensibilities? As it is one of my criticisms of the show is that it tries a bit too hard to appeal to modern sensibilities. Hence my critique of Tushan Jing. But that's just one opinion among many. It would be far easier for me if I did like the character more because I usually... almost always... support the main romance.

It's not beyond the pale that people would prefer antiheroes and villains over and against a nice protagonist.

I sometimes think we don't consider enough the role actors play in why we love a character as much as we do. I have no doubt that the popularity of Xiang Liu has to do in large part with Tan Jianci's tour de force performance. I just love watching him be Xiang Liu -- the subtle eye shifts, the movement of his cheeks, his gait changes. To me ironically his best acting comes from the fact that he's holding himself back and his occasional lapses when he almost gives in to his feelings. The way he imbues the character with humanity blows me away.

I've been watching television for decades and I've seen first hand over the years various ship wars because people are just passionate about their favourite characters. I'm rather used to it. But I don't think we need to turn everything into a competition or battleground.

I had no trouble following the the storyline but I'm a seasoned viewer of historical and C dramas. I had heard it was a fantasy drama and I don't usually watch that genre but was surprised to discover how grounded it was. That said, there are a lot of different characters and it's not hard to see why anyone might get a little lost in the weeds. The trick is to start with the FL and then try to remember other characters in relation to her. Those early episodes were a lot of fun and humorous.
I didn't find the pacing that slow.

I do remember that. Not surprising considering the context.