Eleison

Yes! And sometimes this sort of thing is cleverly revealed after the ML confesses, and through flashbacks we see them overlay the ML's perspective onto scenes with the ML and FL where we only got HER perspective originally but now we get HIS; either way works, I just like when it's done. 😂

Yes, your descriptions of Wanning and Fang Fei were on point! I really liked the way revenge was portrayed in this drama. (Well-put!)

Yes, instead of trying to focus on hurting those that hurt her, like a typical revenge story might, she focuses on helping others who were wronged and exploited like herself. She didn't go about if perfectly, but she had so much compassion on those around her, and it was just SO fun to watch her use her brilliance (which she never really tapped into when she was married to Shen Yurong, I think) to win allies and, by triumphantly championing the downtrodden, revenging herself on her enemies.

I see, then that makes sense! One consolation for you: there will be no 2MLS in this. :)

Your response was so lovely! Thanks for responding so thoughtfully in return. I hope you know I wasn't trying to school you or scold you, because I see what you were trying to say, but it worries me that people are using the pain they suffered as excuses for their own damaging behavior, and I think it's a serious issue. I get so into things like this, and then I go on and on 😂.

Isn't it interesting that Wanning exploited Shen Yurong sexually, just like she was exploited sexually? I had a friend who fantasized about bashing in his dad's head with a golf club one day because he'd grown up being abused physically by him.

My friend didn't follow through, thank goodness, but he realized, horrified, that his hate towards his own father could very well turn him into the sort of person his dad was: a man who would get violent when angry and bitter, and hurt those closest to him in the process. It was learning to forgive his dad that changed his story (and stopped the cycle of abuse in his family). It wasn't a fast process. It took him time and being a part of a loving support system that helped him learn to forgive, but he now has freedom from his hate.

Now, I will admit, I don't think evil that we've experienced can be forgiven on our own. It's not really something we can accomplish by "trying" really hard at. My friend could only forgive his father once he experienced forgiveness from others for ways HE (my friend) had messed up. Because my friend had to realize that even though he was hurt in traumatic ways by his dad, he was far from an "innocent" himself.

ALL of us hurt those around us through our selfishness (especially those closes to us), even if we're not as extreme as rapists or murderers or domestic abusers; we ALL do things that hurt and exploit others for our own gain (i.e. we try to control them and turn them into people we want them to be, we discourage them because we're angry at them, belittle them, make them feel less than, call them names and "punish" them through our behavior, we withhold good things from them or hold back showing love to get them to change, etc.). All of us are perpetrators of some form of evil, and it's necessary for us to own up to it.

Csuse, what if we do these things to them over, and over and over again? How about over a lifetime? In this sense, haven't we hurt others, too? Once we realize this, how can we point fingers? And what if we receive love and forgiveness from those we've hurt, despite hurting them? What if they don't hate us, but continue to want good things for us and love us despite the way we've hurt them and used them? If we can be forgiven for our mistakes, how can we not forgive others for theirs?

I think such a realization can empower us to forgive (and maybe even love) those who have hurt us. Forgiveness is not reconciling with the person who hurt us, necessarily, but it is releasing our hatred of them and not allowing it to have power over us. So, so, so hard, but it's the only way I think change and transformation can occur, and cycles of abuse and wickedness can end. It's only possible if we've been loved first, despite our brokenness (like Fang Fei; she could become a different person because she was loved and valued (by her family, by Jiang Li, who sacrificed her life for her) and even though one of those people she loved turned on her in a horrible betrayal (her first husband), she didn't let her hate and bitterness turn her into a Wanning; instead, she chose love and gratitude, and let (real) Jiang Li's sacrifice and selflessness propel her towards championing the good and the just).

I don't know if they wrote forgiveness into Fang Fei's arc, but they showed that what she accomplished was only possible through selfless, unconditional love, and I think THAT is at the heart of all forgiveness, healing and transformation.

Wanning's tragedy is that no one showed her the way of love, because (as far as we could see) no one loved her. What a heartbreaking reality to experience!

I disliked him greatly by the end, but a very well-written character, nonetheless. He was a trainwreck in slow motion. :) Cause dramas are best at building arcs in slow motion (now when I watch a western show or film I just think, "Whoa, everyone changed so fast!" 😂).

Hm. I see what you mean, this princess was dealt a terrible hand, if you will, but saying a "villain is made" takes away all her responsibility (I don't think villains are born, either, to be clear). If they are made, it means they don't really deserve punishment and cannot be held accountable for doing evil things.

I prefer to think that while environment and inclination and such are all factors that influence who people become, their choices determine whether they become a "villain" or not. (Fang Fei vs. Wanning are good examples of how their choices caused them to become different people; Fang Fei was loved by her family, and that certainly gave her an advantage because she knew what is was like to be loved and valued; Wanning definitely had it harder, for sure, but she CHOSE to become the person she was, to give into selfishness and become the victim so everyone must fall at her feet for misusing her or letting others misuse her).

If society believes that villains are made, how will cycles of abuse in families ever stop (this is where so much of the brokenness and trauma in our world comes from)? They won't. As long as harmful behavior gets justified from the stance of, "I was a victim, therefore I couldn't help the terrible things I grew up to do because of how terrible my suffering was that caused me to do it," then evil will flourish. I don't want to live in a world that tells people who hurt others and feel no remorse for doing so, "It's okay, your trauma was so intense, you couldn't help it; you're not at fault"... Scary! This is not how people "deal" with trauma. They deal with it by learning to forgive (not dismiss, not forget, not excuse and not say, "It's okay"), but forgive them despite knowing and acknowledging they did you horrible wrong. This is the only way hate and pain do not turn someone into the very person that hurt them.

More and more people are experiencing what psychology calls trauma. It cannot be used as an excuse to dismiss selfish, wicked behavior, or else all the victims in our world are destined to become perpetrators.

Oh yes, I picked up on that, too. It was not lost on me.

I've often thought (and I think The Double is a good example of this) that the sexual or emotional abstaining is what makes Kdramas and Cdramas creative in their romance-telling, and the reason their romances are more appealing to viewers in ways western romances have ceased to be appealing. They don't know how to tell a romance. Shocker, but it's not just about the leads being almost instantly sexually attracted to each other (with electric chemistry) and immediately consummating their passion for one another. In a western film/TV show, you have the characters sleeping together after one steamy interaction and passionate kiss session (usually one of their first interactions, too), and then all interest, chemistry and tension disappears. Cause, how romantic is that? It's not interesting. compelling, playful or subtle. Immediately sexually gratifying or appealing, maybe, but not romantic.

The tension is what makes things interesting to watch, and dramas show this best through the characters getting to know each other, falling in love, having to hold back on their desires and wait for the right time, how they work through challenges, make mistakes and learn from them in the context of their relationship, etc. This makes for a much more interesting watch. (Even the stuff left to the viewer to fill in can make the story more interesting to watch than to see the things which are being implied shown on the screen; and anyway, if you saw what was implied on screen frequently, it would also become a different form of entertainment pretty quickly).

Yes, his role was so intriguing, and I found him one of the most interesting to watch from start to finish. At times I felt bad for him, but once I saw him just throw all compassion, selflessness and goodness to the wind (e.g. the way he convinced himself he could have Fang Fei back and keep Wanning temporarily believing he loved her 🤮), he sealed his fate of becoming a villain.

Very Macbeth-like indeed. Did Wanning MAKE him the person he became? No, indeed. His own choices got him there, and he let himself be controlled by a very troubled, sick (literally and figuratively; she was mentally sick), icky woman.

I guess I misunderstood your question, then. In what sense was what I described a "heavy love triangle"?

I appreciated them showing him responding to things she did that he thought was cute, funny or attractive. It shows us what he likes about her, which is nice. He's not just suddenly in love, "Bang!" And then we have no idea why. Besides, that feels unrealistic. Most people fall in love with a person because of things they like about them. And it's dignifying, honestly!

If I may quote the 90's animated Swan Princess; the prince is head over heels for the princess. He is asked why he loves her. He responds, "Because she's beautiful." The princess, dissatisfied, says, "And?" The prince shrugs. "What else is there?" She storms out. 😂

Yeah, not a good reason, dude. Most girls won't find that a satisfying reason all by itself for being liked. We want to be seen as beautiful, but not loved for that reason alone! *shivers*

No, it seems like the 2ML is a first class jerk (he's an ex who disappeared for 3 yrs with no explanation and then suddenly returns, all smiley, like nothing ever happened, claiming they never broke up. 🤨). Don't think there will be much competition here between the MLs...

Whoa, how did they get so many big actors to take support roles? 🤔

Hi, @mooc. I see you're back, beating your favorite drum! I did block you, but I use the app, and I discovered it does not keep me from seeing your comments, so, alas, I continue to come across your comments. 😂 I find the repetition of your message tedious (which is the only reason I tried to block you, haha), but once in a blue moon you say something intriguing amongst the expletives and generalizations.

I wanted to get more clarification on what you mean by "porn" (you seem to use porn as an insult, so I assume you are assuming porn is unhealthy for flourishing relationships) and why Kdrama romances are "soft porn," since depending on what you mean, I might somewhat agree with you.

I have not watched entertainment content besides "soft porn," in your estimation, but by "porn" I will assume you mean sexually explicit content watched for the sake of gratifying some sort of sexual urge/need/desire. Now, if you mean that some Kdrama romances fall into some category of porn for the following reason, I can see what you mean: people (traditionally men) who watch porn can/will begin to have unrealistic standards of what sex and sex partners are like (as they seek to gratify a sexual urge) through the fantasy-sex depicted, and people (mostly women) who watch Kdrama romances while seeking to satisfy some sort of sexual urge can/will also gain unrealistic depictions of men and relationships with them through fantastically unrealistic scenarios.

What I imagine you're implying is that both soft porn and porn can have negative efffects on viewers, and are just used by people to get their sexual urges assuaged (but for Kdramas, it is done in a milder form, due to it being less graphic--or would you disagree?). I think that this can be true for some who watch Kdramas. They CAN be used as a way to satisfy a sexual desire in a very easy way that does not require someone to work at a real relationship but will still make them "feel good." I agree that in this comparison it can have some negative consequences (for those who allow themselves to think that this is how real relationships work, especially), and carry those misconceptions into their relationships. I agree that they can be damaging and inhibit flourishing relationships (from being maintained properly and/or from being begun properly) if expectations from fantasies are infringing on healthy expectations between real people in a real relationship.

I imagine you don't call these dramas porn because they are not explicit enough, fair enough, I would agree. It seems your issues are more in the way these dramas might affect a person's subconscious beliefs and views about relationships and men, as porn might do about sex. Again, I would agree this CAN be true.

That said, I think there are some important differences.

For instance, I think romance Kdramas (and perhaps some, more than others) can be engaged with much more healthily than with porn. For instance, there are a lot of other redeeming qualities to dramas that can contribute to someone's enjoyment and just genuine (not sexual) pleasure of the story (i.e. seeing people wrestling with family interactions, sweet friendships, character arcs that show people growing and changing in relationship to other people, high production quality, lovely OSTs and BGMs, predictable, comfortable plots for those who enjoy predictable entertainment, interesting scripts and clever writing that can crop up, etc.), which I don't believe is an argument that could be made in favor of porn. People CAN watch romance dramas without needing it to satisfy sexual urges (and who don't get those experiences from it at all) because they have robust relationships and healthy sex lives. Can the same be said of porn? I think more distinctions can be made, but I will stop here for now.

I think I could appreciate your efforts to "change" the opinions of users on this site (or seek to effect change in the industry, somehow), and find your contrarian harping less tedious, if I knew you were going to forums that talk about porn and harping on how damaging that entertainment is, too. It seems only fair. If you're already doing so, then I am satisfied. In fact, I'd venture to applaud you for your consistency!

I thought she did a really good job in While You Were Sleeping, even though she was just a support role in that.

I think it also accurately showed that you can love your sister to death (maybe not realize it) and still fight like cats and dogs. My sister and I are super close and don't fight like this anymore, but as kids and teenagers, oh yeah, you bet we fought. 😂

The only thing they share is that they leave you in suspense about which ML ends up with the FL. :) They mix up the Kdrama formula consistently for each Reply installment.

But the ending of 20 is *chef's kiss*. It's akin to leaving Neverland behind. It's heartbreaking, but also necessary (as well as unavoidable) and beautiful to grow up. (Do have tissues, though. 😉)

And keep an open mind about which boy ends up with Deok Sun. Unless you think you might inadvertently get attached to one over the others, 😂 then I'd suggest you look it up. It depends on the person, but I ended up spoiling myself because I couldn't handle the suspense (this is a common Reply series tactic: to keep you guessing about which ML ends up with the FL. It's a very unique set of dramas in that sense, haha).

Notice, this drama has a 9.1 rating on MDL (already pretty rare), 100,000+ viewers (also rare), and was released in 2016. There are VERY few dramas on this site that can boast these impressive stats with so much time and distance from airing.

And there's a reason.

It's not for everyone, and it took me a while to get into, but once I did, I was hooked.

P.S. Don't forget to have some tissues handy for the end! Because you WILL weep.

I found the first 5 episodes boring and very difficult to get through, and I was less invested in the parents stories' throughout, but it does pick up, and the ending packs a PUNCH, and hits you right in the feels (and by watching the earlier bits, the ending comes together; it might just take some time to get there). I don't know if you can watch the ending and not cry? Has anyone managed it? 😂 Especially if you have any sweet memories of friendship, youth or childhood, the end will do you in. 😂 If you don't have good memories from your youth, it will make you long to have had them, and you'll still mourn with the characters, at the very least. The first review that quotes some of the drama's voice over is probably some of the most gut-wrenching stuff once you've seen the drama.

I'd suggest let yourself watch over a span of weeks or months and just slowly make your way through it. It's not the kind of show to speed through, and honestly, it's too long to binge. 😂

It has vibes of a weekend or family drama, especially in that it is so much longer than a normal 16 Episode drama, and focuses on so many characters equally, and their arcs of growth. It just feels like a higher production value than a family or weekend drama; less soapy, and more poignant, nostalgic and thoughtful. It's not super plot driven, and feels like someone followed four families in the same neighborhood with a camcorder as their kids grew up; these sorts of vibes. All the best! 😉