MiHnn

I'm an HJP fan who has blocked some HJP fans for this very reason. I think that's the best way to enjoy this show. Block and move on. I refuse to let them taint this show which I love with stupid ship wars and bias hypocrisy.

"I think, personally, none of the characters are manipulative in this show"

This is what I said. But you ignored it and started talking about me trying to find people who agree that the Grandmother is being manipulative???

And please note that my refusal to engage with you after this is due to the fact that you don't read opposing comments. Because someone who says they are open minded (multiple times, over and over) should really read other people's opinions and understand their view point without blatantly skimming through and drawing their own conclusions.

"Well, disagree with me ok no problem, but at least show me why?"

I showed you why. You ignored it and you're asking me to repeat myself. I can't help but think you're a troll, so I will stop engaging with you after this.

Good day.

That's kind of you to say so, but I am more into show discussions rather than trying to change someone's mind.

I wish you the best though.

"Grandma can never be manipulative, because she's family. "

Please keep this in mind for real life. Family can be manipulative. Friends can be manipulative. Your spouse can be manipulative.

I think, personally, none of the characters are manipulative in this show, and I can see your bias in how you refuse to hold all the characters to the same standard, so we will agree to disagree.

But for real life, please keep in mind that manipulation and gaslighting can come from the people who you love the most.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

"Comments like:

1. Your toxic
2. Your delusional
3. LOL, you crazy HJP shippers

does not help the conversation, but rather detracts from it."

I completely agree.

Fun fact though:

I'm not an NDS fan. I ship HJP with SDM. But I do not agree with the villainisation of NDS for doing the same thing as HJP and the grandmother.

So if you find NDS manipulative, it is only fair that you say the same about her grandmother and HJP. Otherwise, it's bias.

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe step one of the elaborate lie started with the lie itself made by the grandmother and HJP by hunting down NDS (I mean, dragging someone who you don't know into a 15 year old lie is not the smartest decision. The fact that he could have thrown them under the bus was a real possibility from the beginning), while you say the start of the elaborate lie was when NDS gave his business card to SDM. - I disagree because the white lie is still a lie that the grandmother and HJP made bigger BEFORE NDS gave SDM his card. NDS showing up at a networking party, pretending he was a hotshot in the very profession he is a part of is not smart. The last thing you want is for potential investors thinking you're a liar.

"The white lie would have been preserved, and would not have escalated."

The white lie could have also been preserved if HJP showed up for the party, told SDM he wrote the letters and said he had a girlfriend. If the grandmother asked him to do this, he would have. But the grandmother wanted to bring in a wild card instead... to move the plot forward.

The main instigator of all this was the grandmother. HJP did her bidding and now NDS is doing her bidding.

"This is actually a misunderstanding, Grandma doesn't stop NDS from telling the truth about her being fake NDS, but rather she didn't want NDS to tell SDM about the fact that her eyes are failing, something NDS did anyway."

This was proven to be false when the grandmother asked NDS to continue to lie to SDM regarding the letters in Episode 7.

Also, please note that in my above comment, I only mentioned HJP in relation to the grandmother.

"HJP's plan was solid as it would provide SDM the closure she needed to stop depending on those letters." -

It was actually the grandmother's plan. She asked HJP to find the real NDS when she went to his workplace.

"HJP has been consistent in this regard. I think from the very beginning he has all these feelings for SDM, which resurfaced when he met her again. And HJP has consistently avoided being in the same room as SDM because he is unwilling to face his feelings because deep down he doesn't believe he deserves SDM's love. " -

This has nothing to do with the discussion regarding the beginning of the lie as these facts came out in Episode 7.

"Ironically if you think about it, HJP is in love with SDM, but he feels ashamed of accepting her love due to the fact that he has been lying to her for 15 years. So it's consistent with his character, that he wouldn't have been able to go to the party himself. It is only when he realizes that NDS would not be going to the party that he decides to go instead to save SDM face, but too late since NDS is there already." -

This is speculation that he felt ashamed. In the first two episodes, he was confident and only cared about how the grandmother felt. I think the show has done a good job in showing his growing feelings for SDM with every new interaction. But when the lie became elaborate (Episode 2 and 3), the show showed no signs of him being ashamed about the letters he wrote.

"So HJP feels guilty and remorseful. Something NDS hasn't shown any signs of, FYI." -

I would say that every time NDS showed signs of wanting to tell SDM the truth are signs of him feeling guilty and remorseful.

"Grandma ask NDS not to tell SDM, but he does anyway. I mean tbh it was such a breach of trust to Grandma, but of course the writer didn't write it that way, instead we show NDS becoming a hero because of it." -

So, by that logic, it would also be a breach of trust for NDS to tell SDM about the letters (because that would be a breach of trust to Grandma) and therefore, he cannot be blamed for keeping the secret.

Same here. I stay out of ship wars because I believe in 'Ship and let ship', but I really wish the discussions were more plot oriented rather than 'my ship is better than yours 'cause your ship is toxic'.

I just really REALLY hate this trend of people calling their anti ship toxic, manipulative or abusive to somehow justify their own ship. It's the beginning of a toxic fandom.

"The reason the lie had to be so big and elaborate was really because of NDS and NDS alone.

If it was up to HJP, NDS would take the money, show up at the event, tell SDM he has a GF and it's done. "

That alone made the lie big and elaborate.

The simple answer would have been if the grandmother told the truth to SDM and SDM not going to the party... But that wouldn't have moved the plot forward and she would have never met NDS. So really, it was HJP, urged on by the grandmother that made the lie elaborate in the first place by insisting that they find the real NDS to play a role.

The other option was that they hide the grandmother's involvement and HJP showed up saying he wrote under a fake penname because he was not confident. He would have definitely helped SDM from saving face against her sister since the sister knows what a hot shot he is.

There were other options. Easier options. Less messy, less elaborate options, but the grandmother and HJP CHOSE the more complicated and elaborate way to cover the lie.

NDS ALONE is not responsible for the lie becoming big and elaborate. Once they got the ball rolling, NDS wanted to continue to lie to stay close to SDM, yes, but when he wanted to tell the truth, the grandmother stopped him. And there have been several instances where HJP tried to stop NDS from telling the truth. They are taking turns, in a Mexican standoff, to stop the others from telling the truth. It's like they need all three of them to be on the same page and for it to tell SDM the truth.

The grandmother, HJP and NDS are now all equally responsible for this big elaborate lie.

Agreed. I see so many people misusing the word 'manipulative' in fandom wars to put down a character their ship is against and it makes no sense. The true manipulative person in this show is In Jae's father. I've been around manipulative people, and they are strategic and selfish. They just don't care about the other person's well-being or mental health or happiness so long as they don't lose that person and what that person gives them. That's textbook manipulation. And people are calling NDS and HJP manipulative and I'm laughing here in my little corner at people throwing the word around and not knowing the meaning behind it.

I've noticed the following in ship war arguments:

1. If a member of their anti- ship lies, it's manipulative. But surprisingly, even if it is the same lie, if a member of their ship says the lie, it's NOT manipulative.

2. If a member of their anti-ship continues to lie, they will start calling him/her abusive because it was already established (in their mind) that he/she is manipulative... But if it is the same lie continued by a member of their ship, surprise surprise... It's NOT abusive, because it was never manipulative in the first place.

Ship wars are so stupid.

Great show. Ignore the shippers.

Same. I ship them both with her. This is the only true solution.

Yep. In Jae doesn't strike me as someone who is family oriented at all. I have a sibling and we grew up sharing everything we like 50/50, but In Jae grew up giving the stuff she doesn't like to her sister, taking the stuff she likes for herself. She also chose her mother over her father because her father was working at a dead end. She also chose to stay with her step-father even though her mother moved out to live in hotels. It doesn't surprise me that she doesn't care about how her grandmother is doing, because she doesn't care about how her sister is doing. That's her personality. She's not familial at all. But that doesn't mean she's a bad person. She's just not family oriented and she doesn't place any importance on family. She doesn't want it or need it in her life right now, because she has a goal that she's working towards. She might regret it later, but right now, she's happy with what she has.

Kdramas make such a big deal about people forgiving their family members for hurting them in the past and reconciling. It might happen here or it might not. It might end with In Jae and Dal Mi both doing well and Dal Mi finally getting respect from her sister which is something she always craved, but because too much has happened, they will still not have that sisterly bond. If that happens, I doubt In Jae would regret it.

There are some personalities who will sacrifice every relationship for their goals while others strive to have both, a work-life balance. In Jae strikes me as the former, while Dal Mi strikes me as the latter. We're still half way through, so it might change.

I think the writer has done a good job in showing how In Jae has changed after being raised differently from Dal Mi. Dal Mi grew up with so much love, but In Jae didn't. She had money, but she didn't have loving parents. Just a mother who spent time at hotels and spas and a step-father she had to connect with so he wouldn't regret adopting her. She dropped her former personality and became colder, calculating and selfish (and personalities like her expect people to take care of themselves because she's someone who takes care of herself, she doesn't rely on anyone and doesn't expect people to rely on her), because that is what her step-father was. There are moments when her old personality comes through, but it's been 15 years. She won't be showing her vulnerable side for a while. And the grandmother will probably be someone who makes her vulnerable and therefore... weak.

The letters are not 100% fake though. As with the birthday episode they showed how HJP wrote a letter by himself (as an example that there were letters he wrote by himself without any contribution made by the grandmother) and he shared information about himself (because he lacked a family to play Go-Stop with and that was something that he wanted; a family) the episode was clearly written to point out that elements of the letters were purely HJP and therefore there is a connection between SDM and HJP. Not every letter was written by the grandmother, so there were instances where certain letters were purely between SDM and HJP. Hence, the letters are not 100% fake.

It started off fake with the grandmother dictating the letters, but once she stopped dictating the letters, the letters became ones written by HJP under a false name. If the grandmother had dictated Every. Single. Letter between SDM and NDS, then yes, 100% fake, but because they made it a point to have an episode dedicated to HJP writing a letter by himself, regarding personal information about himself (eg:- his birthday, wanting to play Go-Stop), it's logical to conclude that ALL the letters are not 100% fake.

Which means that letters between SDM and the grandmother and HJP (written by NDS) has fake content and a fake name, while letters between SDM and HJP (written by NDS) has a fake name with possible real content.

For me it's not overrated. I've been re-watching episodes as I wait for new ones over the weekend. Unlike most kdramas these days, the relationships between the characters are more organic, everyone has a good backstory and there is solid character growth. The first two episodes were the weakest and the recent two episodes were a bit draggy, but it's mostly entertaining and it's shot at a good pace.

Dream High has to be the only ending that surprised me (beside The Third Charm).

Yep. It's that estranged. Dal Mi and her grandmother are ride or die and that is their family unit. The mother and Injae didn't even know when Dal Mi broke her leg, it makes sense that they wouldn't know when the grandmother starts losing her sight. Injae and her mum are no longer part of that family. They don't even casually talk to each other and they've gone over a decade without any communication. It's not surprising at all.

So... basically... According to every character in this drama... 'No' means 'Yes'.

The best thing about kdramas are the friendships and found family. No other country can consistently give that warm feeling of bickering togetherness in their shows.