antiherodiaries

Most Xiang Liu fans understand XY better than XY understands herself, haha. We admire her when she is genuine, but we think she can do better when she pretends to be someone she's not, especially considering her values and priorities.

As I mentioned in a previous comment, XY's achievements didn't change her life, her outlook, or the course of her life; instead, her flaws dictated her choices and decisions hindering her legacy. One can still have humble goals yet be consistent and true to themselves.

For instance, take her archery skills: after decades of learning, she stopped once Cang Xuan became emperor. Why? Because she claimed Cang Xuan was now safe. What's the point of spending all those years honing a skill only to abandon it once safety is assured? This shows a lack of discipline and consistency.

Another example is her research on the Flame Emperor's work. She opened a clinic but abandoned it after Jing's death, denying herself a chance to find value outside of her psychological and emotional trauma.

She finds all sorts of reasons to halt her progress, which undermines building character, resilience, and self-awareness.

With all this talk about typical gray characters, I would like to break down the character types in Lost You Forever.

GOAT:
Xiang Liu

Hero/Heroine: A character exhibiting admirable qualities such as bravery, self-sacrifice, and integrity, who undertakes significant challenges or quests for the greater good.

1. Chiusui Feng Long
2. Rou Sou
3. Ah Nian

Complex antihero/antiheroine: A character in a story who lacks traditional heroic qualities, often exhibiting morally ambiguous behavior, internal conflicts, and flawed characteristics, making them relatable and multidimensional.

1. Xiao Yao
2. Cang Xuan

Anti-villain: A character who opposes the protagonist but possesses qualities or motivations that make them sympathetic, understandable, or even admirable, often blurring the line between good and evil.

1. Fang Feng Yiying
2. Chiusui Xingyue

Complex villain: A character who engages in antagonistic or evil actions but has a nuanced personality, detailed backstory, and multifaceted motivations, making their behavior and choices more understandable and sometimes even relatable.

1. Tushan Hou
2. Xiyan King (based on his actions/decisions for power)
3. Haoling Emperor (based on his actions/decisions for power)

Villain: A character in a story who opposes the protagonist and engages in harmful, immoral, or malevolent actions, often serving as the primary source of conflict.

1. Xiyan uncles and nephews

Plot device: A narrative technique or element used to advance the storyline, develop characters, or introduce and resolve conflicts within a story.

1. Tushan Jing
2. Lover's Bugs

But......XY did find his INABILITY to live without her romantic 🥴... AND his only reason to live is her which makes thier realtionship extremely unequal -- her position in a savior complex and his position in inferiority complex.

And I disagree. XY loved CX more than anyone. He is the only she would use her body to protect. Romantically, she loved XL the most. He is the only one she is willing to lie and kill for. Jing, she loved him for putting her first.

Xiang Liu is anything but a typical gray character.

Xiang Liu is what you would consider an underdog, lone-wolf type complex antihero!

Give me ONE character that checks all three boxes.

Let me break it down for you with some examples in dramas/films for context:

Complex antihero:
1. Shen Yi (Tan Jianci, Under the Skin)
2. Gu Yun (Tan Jianci, Winner is King)
3. Tantai Jin (Luo Yunxi, Til the End of the World)
4. Wei Wu Xian (Xiao Zhan, The Untamed)
5. Ling Buyi (Wu Lei, Love Like the Galaxy)

Underdog hero:
1. Zhang Chu Lan (Peng Yu Chang, I am Nobody)
2. Tang San (Xiao Zhan, Douluo Continent)
3. Ning Que (Chen Fei Yu, Ever Night)
4. Xiao Yan (Wu Lei, Fight Break Sphere)

Lone wolf warrior:
There are no lone wolf warriors in the current Chinese drama landscape. These types tend to show up in films. Here is a short list:

1. Wong Fei Hong (Jet Li, Once Upon a Time in China)
2. Ip Man (Donnie Yen, Ip Man series)
3. Quan Ngoc Minh (Jackie Chan, The Foreigner)
4. Sing (Stephen Chow, Kung Fu Hustle)
5. Nameless (Jet Li, Hero)

I have all my essays saved in my notepad, so no worries.

Girl are you Nath and my long lost sister for another yet another mother? Why do you understand Cang Xuan so much?! 🥹 Like Nath, if XL didn't exist, Cang Xuan would be tattooed onto me too. I also send you my condolences. 🌸

A viewpoint that questions whether Xiang Liu and the Chenrong's fight—regardless of others' hindsight as a lost cause—was even worth fighting for comes from a very narrow and privileged mindset that disregards generational trauma, ancestral displacement, and oppression. It is rooted in colonial foundations where oppressors believe they are better, their culture is superior, and their new ways of life are more peaceful; hence, why aren't people just happy and accepting of it?

IMO, the only way to understand the Chenrong army is to take one's mind out of a colonizing mindset. For those of us whose ancestors had to either assimilate into the dominant culture or migrate to avoid genocide and cultural destruction, the latter being a more guaranteed way to keep our language, customs, and rituals, the Chenrong remnants' fight and presence mean 1) Xiyan cannot truly assimilate Chenrong, and 2) if Xiyan should fall, Chenrong would have a means to protect itself.

When Cang Xuan conquered DaHuang, what did he do to prevent future conflict in Chenrong? He separated and divided Chenrong, ordered the displacement of numerous tribes, and forbade several Chenrong tribes from intermarrying. These tactics were not written from TongHua’s imagination; they are REAL historical tactics interjected into DaHuang. These are assimilation tactics designed to destroy indigenous culture. Maybe, to someone who has never had to wonder if their way of life would cease to exist, it can be hard to understand and grasp the righteousness of the Chenrong remnants.

Another example from *Once Promised*: For some years, Chi Chen was the reason the Jiuli had the power to resist sending their people for indentured servitude. But do you know what happened once Chi Chen was assimilated and owed his life to the Chenrong Emperor? He stopped protecting the Jiuli, and they were forced to continue sending their people into servitude to the great clans.

For me, CX's rule brings back the stories of my ancestors and the violence they suffered. As Tong Hua has based LYF on Chinese mythology, one of those is The Battle of Zhoulu. At the end of the battle, after the fall of Chi You, his remnants were divided and separated. One brother led 1/3 of the Jiuli and assimilated into the Central Plains. The remaining 2/3 were displaced and moved southwestward.

Those of you who are wondering, "What would happen if Cang Xuan dies, or Xiyan falls?" If one cannot imagine a world in which CX doesn't exist and Xiyan is not in power, then it means one has been played into the oppressor's propaganda.

Had someone asked me if Chi You's remnants had managed to defeat the Yellow Emperor in Chinese antiquity, who would lead the Hmong/Miao nation? One would only hope that the man in power would be one to protect their way of life. In my ancestors' case, it would have been one of his surviving brothers or generals who fought to keep my ancestors in their land.

Speaking as someone whose ancestors were divided, displaced, oppressed, migrated, and sought refuge fogenerations through the corruption of the Ming Dynasty, genocide campaigns of the Qing Dynasty, Vietnam War, and Secret War in Laos, someone like Xiang Liu is a motherfucking hero. Therefore, Hong Jiang's and the Chenrong Army's resilience is justifiable. They had every right to fight and protect what they believe in.

XY eventually understood this and held no grudge against them or Xiang Liu. And do you know what? XY herself couldn't free herself from her own loyalty to Xiyan and her family. Oh, and you know what else? XY was only able to turn her back on her bloodline with the loss of Xiang Liu. That is the impact Xiang Liu had on XY; his loss was so profound that it finally caused her to sever her ties to her family—the family she lost and was desperate to return to for over 300 years. To finally realize what truly matters only after you’ve lost it is XY's real lesson. That is why she had no qualms taking Jing to the ocean despite it meaning creating another generation of trauma for another child.

Why is Xiang Liu a war hero, Hong Jiang's fight honorable and the Chenrong Resistance Army justifiable?

Below is revised and more thorough analysis response to a now buried comment.👇👇👇

This viewpoint seems to come from a very narrow and privileged mindset that disregards generational trauma, ancestral displacement, and oppression. It is rooted in colonial foundations where oppressors believe they are better, their culture is superior, and their new ways of life are more peaceful; hence, why aren't people just happy and accepting of it?

I think a lot of what you're looking for, Kokuto already answered. Therefore, I approach this from an angle where, to wholly understand what's going on, we need to recognize that there are people trying to twist the narrative through a gaslighting campaign to invalidate our experience while creating a biased mindset for those who haven't seen the drama or read the novel.

One way to understand the Chenrong army, is to take one's mind out of a colonizing mindset. For some of us whose ancestors had to either assimilate or migrate to avoid genocide and cultural destruction just so we could keep our language, customs, and rituals, the Chenrong remnants' fight and presence mean 1) Xiyan cannot truly assimilate Chenrong and 2) if Xiyan should fall, Chenrong would have a means to protect itself.

When Cang Xuan conquered DaHuang, what did he do to prevent future conflict in Chenrong? He separated and divided Chenrong, ordered the displacement of numerous tribes, and forbade several Chenrong tribes from intermarrying. These tactics were not written from TongHua’s imagination; they are REAL historical tactics interjected into DaHuang. These are assimilation tactics designed to destroy indigenous culture. Maybe, to someone who has never had to wonder if their way of life would cease to exist, it can be hard to understand and grasp the righteousness of the Chenrong remnants.

Another example from Once Promised: Chi Chen was the reason the Jiuli had the power to resist sending their people for indentured servitude. But do you know what happened once Chi Chen was assimilated and owed his life to the Chenrong Emperor? He stopped protecting the Jiuli, and they were forced to continued to send their people into servitude to the great clans.

If one cannot imagine a world in which CX doesn't exist, and Xiyan is not in power, then I guess one has been played into the oppressor's propaganda. For me, CX's rule brings back real ancestral trauma, and your question in the latter is like asking me if Chi You's remnants had managed to defeat the Yellow Emperor in Chinese antiquity, who would lead the Hmong/Miao nation? One would oy hope that the man in power would be one to protect thier way of life. In my ancestors case, it would have been one of his surviving brothers or generals who fought to keep my ancestors in their land.

As for translation, I don't usually trust it fully becuase there is always room for mistranslation and things being lost. I take it with a grain of salt.

WeTV now has it on Facebook.

Why are people calling a resistance army a rebel army?

I guess if you think the Xiyan Empire is the good guys, then it makes sense. But the Xiyan Empire is not the good guys; they invaded while Chenrong and Haoling were at peace. Grandpa Xiyan orchestrated assassinations, killed his own son/heir, and pressured his only daughter to release her sun powers so that he could defeat Chi Chen in battle. We're all rooting for XY, hoping she will make decisions that lead her to the life she desires, but don't let that dilute the fact that her family were always the instigators that ignited the flames of war.

The Chenrong remnants stayed in hopes of turning the tides and regaining their country. They didn't exist to inconvenience the lives of Chenrong. XL's notorious reputation came about because Xiyan couldn't defeat him, so like Chi Chen, they launched propaganda to keep people in fear. And fear is a powerful tool to control the masses.

So haters are also using the same propaganda tactics found in the novel in real life to smear XL as a character. Because XL the resistance fighter is more positive and powerful as opposed to XL the rebel fighter.

Don't fall for such idiocy. I don't remember anywhere in the book where TH calls the resistance army the rebel army. (¬‿¬)

oh snap! where have seen i elsewhere?

You have to use Chatgpt to clean up her grammar to understand what she's trying to say. But yes definitely a word salad 🥙🥗

You are so real right now. 🤭😅🤣

This is the reason why Xiang Liu is so beloved. Becuase he forgo all worldly desires to fulfill the duties of his adopted father, and all the soldiers (past and present) wishes to fight for thier country, all the while, honoring his blood oath to XY by loving her wholeheartedly through laying plans for her to achieve her dream and live peacefully. This is our last image of XL.

Do you know why Xiao Yao's flaws overshadow her achievements? It is because her achievements didn't change her world or her perspective. They didn't alter the way she wanted to live, her outlook on life, or the course of her life. Her fears and codependent needs dictated the course of her life.

Because her achievements didn't change these aspects, they didn't leave a lasting impact on audiences. For example, if you want Xiao Yao's medical achievements to be the forefront of her lasting legacy, then you need to write them in a way that truly changes the course of time. And because it is a fantasy, the changes need to be fantastical. For example, as the war raged on, other than her wedding and possible happy ending with Jing, did she ever think about the countless soldiers Cang Xuan sent to their deaths? Did she think about the refugees needing food and medical care? Did she ever wonder if Xiang Liu or his men had enough to eat? Did she even imagine venturing out into the warzone to save as many lives as she could? No, because Xiao Yao is not that kind of person. Her kindness only extends to what benefits her and her family. She gives no care about anyone else but her and her immediate needs and the needs of her family.

A true protagonist that you want people to remember would forgo her selfish needs and set up shop in the heart of the warzone to treat soldiers, despite her status as the Xiyan princess. She would treat anyone regardless of their political affiliations. Her love for the people would change the tide of Da Huang, not Cang Xuan's reign of absolute power and total destruction of the resistance army, and the demise of Xiang Liu. Now if this were the case, Xiao Yao would be revered for her courage, her resilience, and her medical achievements.

Do you also know why Xiao Yao's character cannot be analyzed independently of her male leads? It is because Xiao Yao has made finding a lifelong partner her whole mission and personality. So the requirements of that partner and the partner she ultimately chooses reflect who she is as a person. Who does she end up with? None other than Jing, who by the time they marry is a weak, near-death person who abandons his adopted son to roam the world with her. Her partner's only reason for living is her; he has no other reason for existing and physically depends on her medical expertise to keep him alive. This is our last image of Xiao Yao.

Which female protagonist is more powerful? The woman whose love for her people changes the hearts of the men around her, or the woman who runs away with her weak, near-death husband, abandoning his only son?

hahaha were are only her when XL is around.

Lol. Just because Xiao Yao's character setup is based on that, it doesn't make her a saint. She's not Mary, Mother of God. Funny you should mention slander, because all I see in the paragraph about Xiang Liu is slander. You need to put your money where your mouth is.

Tong Hua's target audience is herself. She is a writer, and most writers or any artists, as a matter of fact, create art from their hearts. Her work just happens to speak to women of all demographics (I myself am a happily married woman with three beautiful children, and I cannot relate to Xiao Yao's choices in life).

No artist sets out to say, "I am going to write a Xianxia novel targeted at emotionally crippled women who seek love consistently and validation from men at the cost of their mental health, dignity, and reputation." And why would you praise such a circumstance where women need protection from men? Women only need protection from other men! If men were taught better and raised better, women wouldn't need protection. Women all over the world have been choosing the bear in the woods over a man in the woods for this reason. You, as a woman, need to think better and do better. Shame on you for encouraging such a backward mindset without considering the institutions that oppress womanhood.

Xiao Yao projecting her worldview on the men in her life, hoping to mold them into her perfect vision, is unhealthy and downright disrespectful of her as a character. It shows how narrow-minded her character is and the extent of her selfishness. If this is the case, the men in her life deserve better than her.

Kokuto and Headintheclouds already have great comments about your twisted, misconstrued, and falsified narrative of Xiang Liu. Do you think we are so inept that we wouldn't know how Tong Hua wrote his story? How dare you think we are so ignorant that we wouldn't see through your defamation?

I don't have any counter for Jing because I don't care for his character. He was always a scumbag in my book.

If I am not permitted to analyze Xiao Yao and her character, and her choices that lead to terrible character development and how her lack of or poor decisions lead to the fall and demise of the men in her life, then why write about her at all? Why spend millions of dollars to make a drama about this? If her character is not meant to be a flawed anti-heroine, then why did Tong Hua write her in such a way that makes her character debatable? As with any imperfect character, there will be discussions, criticism, and analysis. Take away these elements, and you just have a flat, boring, and stupid character. It's an insult to Tong Hua to suggest otherwise. Please make it make sense.

P.S. I deserve to watch and read whatever the eff I want. Thank you, come again.

Just do it! Don't be like XY, instead, have the courage to love XL through it all. Be the woman she couldn't be for him. 🤣😂😅

I'm getting sentimental over Xiang Liu and preparing my heart. Here's a poem for him.

The willow towers on a mound of flesh
drenched in battle, crimson-gore.

His shimmering silver strands of longing dances, stretching for miles.

Each strand searching for a slice of solace in the wind, uncontrollably.

A red thread ties his heart to the present, a gift from the heavens.

His beloved drowns in a jar of wine, hoping to wash away his reflection from her eyes.

While he faces the cries of a thousand soldiers, she cries unable to hold onto him.

As the flames of war rage, she throws her body at another, smoldering her longing.

flesh on flesh

His body seeps into Mother Earth's bosom, long perished.

Her heart seeks his presence upon ocean pearls, among the Siren songs.

The willow sleeps upon a mound of black ash, drenched in the poisons of love.