calicos

I think this is a really fair comment. I hope that all of us in this comment section can respect the lived experiences of real people, even if we disagree about how to interpret the scene.

Oh man I hated that scene in Given. I'm not really a big fan of their relationship dynamics anyway but I was glad they at least acknowledged it before trying to start a relationship.

i don't disagree that gsd's actions were inappropriate and out of line. i guess i do disagree, however, with the idea that this scene is incompatible with a happy ending. does that not show us that zsy isn't traumatized by this incident? i don't believe that someone /has/ to feel violated or traumatized as a result of sex that goes too far for comfort. i'm trying very carefully here not to make it sound like i think people should just brush off sexual encounters that make them uncomfortable—that's not my intention at all. i mentioned on this page (tmi) that i've been sexually assaulted so i know how that experience feels. however, i also know a lot of people who've had a range of sexual experiences and know that different people may process things differently. therefore i don't think the show is sending an unrealistic or problematic message.

"ZSY doesn't seem upset after this, more like he's done fighting his feelings all of a sudden. this is confusing to me because the whole issue was ZSY didn't trust GSD any more. personally, if someone who had betrayed my trust physically forced me to do /anything/ when i told them (repeatedly) not to, it would make me trust them even less."

i guess from my pov, if zsy isn't shown to be upset about the gsd's aggression, then how can we say he did or should feel violated? rather than being forced to do something he did not want to do, clearly some of us are seeing it as more like being strong armed into doing something he /did/ want to do, just maybe not like that or under those circumstances. i said before that i felt like gsd was out of line, not disputing that. but as a viewer shouldn't we take our cues of how zsy feels from the character?

we're all reading our interpretation of how we would've acted or felt onto these characters, but i think there is room to admit that there is a range of how someone could realistically feel. sex is not always loving—it's why we all recognize terms like breakup sex and hate sex. feelings and situations can be messy without being traumatizing. i don't think that sends mixed messages.

I don't know if this is appropriate for the comments section but this whole episode discussion has made me think. TW for discussions of rape and sexual assault.

I don't know how to say that "consent is not always black and white" without sounding like a rape apologist and that's not my intention at all. But I think that the conversation around sex and consent deserves more nuance than "this scene is rape" vs "no it's definitely not rape." You can agree to a sexual act but could be coerced, or guilt tripped, or scared to reject the other person. That's not consent even if there was a verbal agreement. In some cases, especially with a long term partner or someone you've slept with before, consent can be more nonverbal. A character kissing another character without asking doesn't automatically mean sexual harassment, especially if the show does a good job showing the nonverbal cues to indicate that the characters are mutually interested.

There's also a range of experiences with regards to sex. You can consent to sex that you later regret without considering it a violation or an assault (ofc this depends on what happened but you get the point). You can recognize that a hookup was a bad decision without considering it a violation.

Because we don't always have internal monologue to rely on to tell us how a character feels, we have to look at the way scenes are filmed to determine what the show is trying to convey about the experience. Let's look at a few examples:

1. TT, shower blowjob scene. This is one that made me extremely uncomfortable, bc it was filmed with soft lighting and romantic music, and Type is framed as the one who needs to loosen up and admit to his true feelings, rather than as a person getting touched despite saying no. Despite Tharn being the aggressor, his actions are not framed as aggressive or out of line.

2. MODC, the fever handjobs. In this scene, XHT pins YXG into place and they jerk each other off, while XHT is clearly out of it due to fever. YXG freaks out a little bit after because he's embarrassed and still trying to figure out his way around their relationship, but ultimately he's not shown as feeling assaulted in any way. The situation may look fucked up and for some people it would be traumatizing and/or validating. Based on the filmmaking cues, we know that YXG trusts XHT to not hurt him intentionally. (Whether or not this trust is deserved given that XHT bullied him is a different story lmao)

3. WBL, the couch scene. This is just my opinion, but I didn't think the scene was portrayed as romantic at all. The filmmaking is chaotic and messy to reflect the characters' moods and emotions. GSD was aggressive and the show leaned into that instead of trying to make his actions seem romantic. Disclaimer: I am not saying this is okay to do in real life. I am not saying that people are wrong to feel triggered by the scene. However, the show has made it clear that ZSY still has feelings for GSD. They both clearly have sexual tension with each other. We also know ZSY does not want to lose face in front of GSD or admit that he still has feelings for him. All this taken together meant that I didn't interpret the scene as an assault, but rather one person who absolutely took things 100% too far and another person who is still romantically and sexually interested but doesn't want to give into it. We have the background knowledge to know that ZSY does want to sleep with GSD still. Do we think he would consider it assault? I don't think so. He gives in at the end not because he's being coerced, imo, but because he can't hold back any more. His body language the next day suggests to me that he may regret it but that's not the body language of someone who considers it a rape.

Some people may consider their relationship toxic. I don't—it is layered, messy, and both good and bad. That's realistic, imo. Not problematic.

I find some of these comments quite surprising in their harshness because I thought the couch scene was well shot and acted and had a very realistic flow that I don't see in a lot of intimate scenes. Yes, it wasn't a pure and wholesome lovemaking but it clearly wasn't meant to be purely romantic. It was intended to be passionate and messy. I respect that people are becoming sensitive to issues of consent in BL and I've found plenty of scenes really uncomfortable in that arena, but (TW rape) as someone who has been sexually assaulted, it didn't trigger me at all. I understand that that may not be the case for everyone though. Just wanted to share my opinion in light of my own life experience.

I thought the directing was fine? It reflected the chaotic feeling of their conflicting emotions and intense feelings for each other.

I really feel like the directing is the problem here. It's as slow as UWMA but it doesn't even have the seriousness that of that plot. You can't treat a juvenile argument some like some serious conflict, it just feels unrealistic and out of sync.

I respect your opinion but I personally didn't feel that way? I was actually really impressed by the depth of emotion they built up between Way and Kim since episode 9. If they hadn't given them a backstory that felt like a realistic, natural progression of their friendship, it might feel to me like they were just there for the BL tease. But as it was, even though they didn't get to be together in the end, I really felt their feelings.

(Now where I think the writing got sidetracked was Way's immediate mood swing back from crying to supporting Pan but that's a different story).

But their friendship was not an insignificant part of the show, and they were friends while they both liked each other.

Two guys confessed mutual love for each other. That's gay.

Regardless of how BL fans feel, it still factually features a gay romance.

Regardless of how BL fans feel, it still factually features a gay romance.

Oh that could be interesting!

I think you might be right but also consider how he died around Easter and they made a point of showing us Easter decorations everywhere. I think he will be resurrected, if they have a s2.

Honestly I think you're being a little dramatic. I'm a BL fan and I enjoyed it. No one is trapped watching something they can quit at any time.

You might disagree, but I think the show's idea of resolution for Kim was letting Pan settle the regrets that Kim might've had when he died. Pan was able to give Khet closure and show him that Kim really loved him all along, and Way was able to learn that Kim loved him and wouldn't want him to be held back by grief.

First has already proven himself to be a fantastic comedic actor in Wolf & Wake Up Ladies, but he's got such range. I hope to see a lot of works from him in the future.

You know what? I'm not mad about it.

Same here. I just feel like it would be so off tonally if it wasn't a happy ending.

I've been a big proponent of this show, but I do think the bodyswap thing was stretched out for one episode too many. I love the raw emotions in the most recent episode, but (assuming they give the show a happy ending), I would've liked to see more of Kim as a character in his own right.