drama_addict_123

I'm not confident of why LZ likes WR. Is it a mix of admiration for her intelligence, her physical attractiveness, and seduction tactics? The drama reminds me of Vincenzo - two technically gray characters who are fighting against corruption. LZ can be seen as gray if you remember that he's a soldier who has likely killed many. WR doesn't really do good for good. It's sometimes a just convenient byproduct for her to do good while she's scheming on how to stay alive. Even when she does a good deed, it's both "selfish" and empathy. I don't blame her for scheming to stay alive and even at times, for manipulating and using reverse psychology on LZ, but for me, she's not the most lovable character (unlike Ye Li in The First Jasmine, or even FL in Vincenzo) and I think it's because she's not sincere with LZ. But her saving grace is that she has vulnerable moments where she doesn't know she's interested and wants LZ. The scene where she's like - "he's nice to me?? Why???" (you want to comfort her bc g really doesn't know what love is) and then she divorces him for his future happiness while knowing how she feels.

I love the scheming reversal to balance the playing field, otherwise I would've felt too bad for LZ. WR schemed and had LZ fall into her traps. Now LZ gets her to fall into his little traps. She was using physical distance as weapons against LZ bc she knew it would unsettle him and he would take a step back. In contrast, I know LZ is not scheming but relishing and stepping into in the physical closeness, whereas it's WR that's unsettled and trying to create distance. Thank goodness he has his bearings and knows when she's scheming to get sth from him (either to get a bday gift or a baby), I want him to know WR has feelings for him.

The first time he checked WR's feelings, the English translation was wrong. The translation said: "you *still* have feelings for me" whereas what he actually said "you *have* feelings for me". The starting point was different.

This is the first drama that I've seen with at least three matriarchs grannies who were reasonable and badasses. They solve problems, fall on the right side, and get to the heart of things. The matriarchs might argue with each other (bday feast or grandmothers' confrontation) but they argue with grace and without pettiness. Cards on the table. Even Duke Gramps knows he married a baddie. Doesn't matter how war-hardened he is or how many sons he's lost, he can't override Duchess Granny and he'll step up to show the youngins what a punch looks like if need be.

I've tried to ignore the half joking comments you keep posting and I'm guessing that you're a man given your username.

Your comments seem to suggest that Dal's only attraction is his kisses and that women would be so weak to only be attracted to looks and whatever survival of the fittest nonsense you keep saying.

If it's survival of the fittest, no woman chooses only on looks. Evolution and biology would suggest they choose based on whomever seems to be a good father and is a responsible man. (I'm not saying that Dal fits those boxes, only your narrative).

You may insist that you're joking around, but if you're posting like this at least 3-4 times across the board, you actually believe it to an extent. You actually think women think physical attraction is sufficient and feel like you need to mansplain them to not fall for their wiles. You remind me of the guys who say they are "nice guys".

You oversimplify how women determine attractiveness and make them seem too simple-minded.

Dal's attractiveness is not his physicality and to diminish how he's actually considerate of YS, namely ensuring YS gets home safely even if they argue (parallel to the ex), protecting her from her ex and letting her choose how she wants to handle his ex (if she wants him to defend her or not), advocating for safe sex, getting her consent at every turn and even worrying at one point if he didn't correctly get her consent. How bout the fact that he helped to crash and burn the family meeting to give her freedom? YS wanted to go on a date with him, just so that she could see a different world while being with him - see end of ep 4 again.

YS didn't do anything so petty and small-minded as going on a date with SML to make anyone jealous. She got rejected, saw a potentially better fit, and took a chance. It was one hang out - it barely suits as betrayal.

Women don't need someone to mansplain to not trust a man who kisses well - I don't care if you say it was a joke. It doesn't matter if he's ugly or beautiful, the moment he opens his mouth, his attractiveness will slide on the scale.

I agree that I think we agree on quite a few points and we're just taking on different evidence and perspectives. A few clarifying points:

- I never called lil bro "disgusting or disrespectful". You might be conflating a different poster from me. I didn't share a stance on his behavior. If anything, I think his reaction seems pretty natural given his cards. He likes his girl, found out about his baby, stepped up, got shocked with the abortion, and now is finding a male figure to figure it out, but is still supporting his pregnant gf, in case she has cravings. His reactions seem pretty normal and at times, thoughtful at the end of the day.

- We agree on the "Men should be equally responsible in preventing pregnancies on their end as they are equally responsible for the outcome of unwanted pregnancies as well." part. I took issue that you called him an adult and her a child in opting out of the birth control in a previous post and that was what I was referring to.

Your reaction to the lil bro's gf caught me the wrong way - it had a tone of "it's the girl's fault". I think the young couple is a great educational moment - they seem to be in college or are in early 20s and to my understanding, Korea has seen a trend in low condom usage and growing STIs incident rates, so it's a relatable, fictional example for young viewers on how to treat teen and unexpected sex and pregnancy.

-your point about not needing to experience pregnancy to know you don't want pregnancy is very valid. I 1000% agree. But what I said is also true. Intellectualizing or imagining something is not the same as living it. Both can be true and should be applied according to the right situational severity and context. In this instance, what I'm referring to are the lines and scenes right before the kiss scene, from the pop up customer interactions, to the indecision scene with the sex toy, and lastly, when she's contemplating the wedding invitation scene. She's attracted to him; given her customer interactions, she's been convinced that there is value in experiencing (even though she also recognizes that she doesn't want to use sex toys), but at the end of the day, it's her choice to play this out. She doesn't HAVE to do it, but there might be value. There might be not, but she's choosing to do it. And I think that's what this drama is about - choice. (and different views).

- I agree with you partially that it would be great if the characters modify (rather than drop) their beliefs and come up with new beliefs that they build together; and in my opinion, we're on the precipice of doing that. YS is on her conscious path of doing this. I don't think she's lost her belief system... she still has slight feelings for him, but I think perhaps the drama hasn't properly convinced us she likes Dal and so,maybe there's a slight disconnect there. Dal is unconsciously evolving his thoughts on love.

-.....I can't tell if you don't like that YS gave up on her worldview. It's understandable to be upset with that. Ideally, we would want values to stay consistent and in check, but the other side to that is: 1) being open-minded to learning other perspectives and 2) potentially refining one's own views with nuance are generally good things. Moderation and nuance are key. To that effect, I don't see YS jumping ship and committing to casual sex any day soon.

- Your post mentioned: "He has basically said in his discussions with her if you want to be with me, you must forget about the idea of love and marriage." I don't think Dal has ever said that. He's said he doesn't date employees and that dating for him is just sex - that was ep 5. He's said that he thinks love is just hormones to reproduce, but I don't think he bemoans anyone having this belief and I doubt that he doesn't know that his ONSs might fall in love with him or be in love with him. He's just very clear about cutting them off.

"If you want to be with me" can be interpreted as "wanting to be in a relationship" or "wanting to sleep with him", so I'll respond to both. I don't think either one of them wants to be in a relationship right now - they each just want a date, so your "if, then" condition wouldn't apply. As for a ONS, I seriously don't think he would make it a requirement of women to suspend the beliefs of love and marriage. He's just more clear that they shouldn't *expect* love and marriage FROM him.

Absolutely, didn't doubt for a second you were talking about the actors vs the characters.

Oooh, good call out. Yes, although I think it was a bit contrived, so they could have opposing opinions and he was acting out because he was jealous. He won't out her in front the other colleagues but both VP and Dal know YS doesn't use the products, so he pushes the boundary a bit. It's aligned to his passion about his products and while he's generally respectful in values, I still have to remind myself that he can be rude. Not ideal behavior! I probably wouldn't tolerate that shit in real life but cut it some slack since it's fiction. She held her own though and I love how points out the forgotten obvious - he hasn't used the products either!

I think this is so well said. I also partially agree with both @Piquina and @Jenool.

I think Dal is really good at not teasing and putting YS on the spot when they are in the office and she is embarrassed about things that happen in their personal life. She'll mistakenly thinks he's talking about their personal life, goes on a rant, and then he just stoically absorbs it without comment and moves on to the professional aspect to their relationship. He never intended on teasing her, but also accepts her take and takes cues from her on how to move forward. Ignore the kiss? Ok. Wanna kiss? Alrighty. He's just really respectful!

It's actually really refreshing to see a ML not bully or "tease" (but really it's full on bully..). a FL about her attraction and emotions.

But he's human nonetheless, so on the occasion when he gets jealous, piqued, and petty (and usually out of the office and with the VP in sight), he speaks in veiled comments and thankfully (blessedly!), YS usually has her bearings and can give it back as good as she gets it. She doesn't back down and I LOVE her, her wit, and her composure in those moments! Not everyone can recover that quickly and certainly not a ton of FLs can deliver with the same calm.

I'm a little bummed that people aren't seeming all the good of Dal! Yeah, the one night stands and how he's kinda rude to blind dates and girls he sleeps with isn't great, so that's a minus.. that behavior shouldn't be glossed over, but he's largely respectful to women! I think YS couldn't have chosen a safer or better first sexual partner, because through various convos and interactions, it's clear that Dal would never pressure a woman to do anything she wouldn't want to do with words or physical violence, he cares about safe sex and so will 1) wear a condom and 2) disclose any STDs.

YS's ex and SML are the traditional "nice guys", but ex proved himself to not be a nice guy and honestly, in real life, I wouldn't know how SML would react if YS was to reject him. He's a nice guy, but would he retaliate - with her reputation, etc? You never know. In real life, any woman would be a bit cautious in dealing with him. But with Dal? His stances have been vehemently clear - safe sex, no violence against women, etc.

But I agree that I don't see YS's emotional attraction to him being very strong. I think after ep 4 - she was curious about what new lives she could live if she dated Dal but her attraction is largely physical. They need more time to build this up - how do we only have 4 episodes? she needs more time! They banter and rapport very well. In contrast, she does a lot of awkward laughing with SML and I cringe every time she laughs to be like "yeah, about that..."

Dal is attracted to her on multiple fronts... his type has been clear - creative (horizon), loving, and assertive. generally? check, check, check. YS? not so clear... there's an intellectual attraction. and like @Jenool said, both are hardworking and honest... They each can dish out what they give and it's not just enemies to lovers, being able to match your energy with your partner is so attractive and important.

then again, (...just musing...), do we need to find a reason why we like someone? It's certainly more compelling for a drama. Maybe we just find them endearing (thinking of the staircase scene). Mm. we need more time for YS's feelings, we can't have YS following motherly instincts to comfort him or something... please no!!

(Sidebar, it speaks well to the actors that we are rooting for the characters and not the actors. They can manufacture the chemistry pretty well without it seeming fake)

Just to preface, I think we have very differing options on how we see multiple issues and just realized we were talking about something different in a separate thread too... I think of this as a fun, friendly discussion, so no hard feelings. I'll push back on things I feel more strongly about and think might be food for thought, but on others, I don't think I'm gonna convince you otherwise, so I won't dabble on that. Onwards...!
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From my perspective, how you're phrasing your thoughts about lil bro's gf seems to put her in a bad light. I think your leap that she wanted assurance she wanted him to take care of her is a big stretch and a bit of a projection of your own reading into it. She could've just been trying to do the right thing - which is telling the guy a baby was made since they share the baby, but ultimately the choice is hers to make since it's her body. I don't think we will agree on this, but from my perspective, it seems like you're shaming her a lot and I don't think that's fair. If both are consenting, then both should be responsible for birth control.

Taking the words from your post, I can't believe that people would label one an adult and another a child when both opted out of birth control? Why does the girl have MORE responsibility? That's wild to me. I think she should be more aware and protective, but just because it's not the guy's body doesn't mean he lacks responsibility during the act and certainly post?! As Dal said, the guy's role is above all, respect.

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It's disappointing you would downgrade the drama if Dal and YS had physical intimacy. Wouldn't that be sex-negative? The drama is trying to support different world views: that we attach meaning or no meaning on an individual basis - everything is as deep as we make of it. YS (used to) think sex was a very deep issue. Dal takes it more lightly. I would say Dal's views on sex aren't wrong, they are just sex positive. So would having sex mean that drama is trash? I think that's an unfair assessment and frankly, quite judgmental on anyone with a sex life.

Dal does have feelings, but all of this is just life and the whole point of YS pursuing this. She's trying to figure it out by experimenting and living through it. I think it's rather important that they go thru the experience and then figure it out from there. Intellectualizing experiences is not the same as living through it.

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The Joseon stuff... I don't follow your logic and don't agree with it. I think that's a lot of extrapolating, so I'll agree to disagree. Just different viewpoints.

I get it, but tht has a twinge of "eh, no self control" that is a bit...

I'd like to think they are both intelligent enough to pause and know the ramifications of their actions. Per my earlier comment, it makes total sense that they tried a date in YS's world view and now they are trying a date from Dal's world view. And I think a distinction needs to be made; I don't think FL believes in sex-before-marriage completely. It was "marriage to confirm love" turned "feelings before sex", and now she's at the juncture of - "let's explore this. I'm interested in him, but let's figure out what I like and if I like him ... with sex".

I kinda like that they are meeting each other in different ways to their worldviews. Dal definitely is aware he's attracted, but he isn't completely aware that it's more than physical attraction. So he got a little dessert for her (a bid/date of his own fashion! which I thought was a better parallel than the SML's fish pastry.) and she's engaging all the physical intimacy post first kiss.

She's definitely evolving... not keen on the idea of her needing to convince him of romantic love. If they are the mature characters they are being depicted... Dal needs to have his own growth and realize his emotions on his own. Then...it might be a bit more contrived, but he needs to convince her that it's love and not lust on his part. Or they don't have this conflict at all and resume to date with her style and his style. Marriage might be a different conflict. I still think all parties need to be convinced that Dal's in love. As the audience, I think we can see Dal's growing awareness of his feelings and the devastation he felt at end of ep 5, which was soooo juicy, but idk if YS's even at the same level. It feels like she's feeling lust more than love at this point.

Oh no, we are not going to shame the girl here. Both were consenting and both are in charge of protection. If they forgot in the heat of the moment or opted out, those are both possibilities. Sometimes pregnancies happen: no method is 100% effective outside of abstinence.

The girl absolutely has the right to choose for her body and her life. She's the one who has to deal with the most changes and repercussions. I dont care if they are teens, elderly, married or not, the girl has the choice.

Also if Dal sorts out his feelings before sleeping with YS, that's acting according to YS's worldview, not his. I'd rather take him for his word... his version of a date is sex. They did her version of a date, now they are trying his. I don't think YS is in love with Dal either. She just likes him and is curious about figuring out what she likes and her feelings. Convincing each other that it's feelings and not lust is gonna be the hurdle.

His replies to the family scene were largely all lies minus the comment that he is the CEO of a sex toy company. He's the opposite of perfect for her family. He might be perfect for her...

Also as the FL said, she wants to date him to see what new paths she can find herself. Relationships are about finding the right person for you...and you shouldn't have to be perfect before entering into one... just open-minded to communicate with each other, rather than assume and then assume without listening. Perfect on paper doesn't mean much in practice.

They grew up differently, but I don't see that they have different values at all, except when it comes to relationships on whether they believe in love or sex. They are both honest people who aren't afraid of speak their minds. They are respectful and hear other people's opinions. There's more to see, but they work well together. In a way, they are the definition of opposites attract and it's kinda lovely to see it work.

Also as FL also says - spending more time together doesn't make a relationship work...

There might be other conflicts... in a relationship, there often is.. but if you doubt that ML likes her, he liked her from their blind date. Her assertive attitude had him making eye contact with her. In his words... that means he has interest and he's paying attention.

I get what you're saying, but some part of the "bad boy" label is that the bad boy comes with toxicity, and Dal doesn't have that.

I should hope that every person is partnered with a person they find attractive, sexy, hot... in a different life, FL would've found SML sexy too, even if the audience might not see him as conventionally sexy... then again, some audience members might too.

idk if ML is considered naughty if he has a sex life. Tattoos, black, leather, chain jewelry, piercings, hair dying, sports, smoking, alcohol, someone assigned meaning and a good/bad vibe to them, but change the culture, and suddenly it's common and innocuous again.

People determine the meanings and Go Dok Dal is far far far from the bad boy. He's a little prickly and maybe a little rude to blind dates and one nights, but we love a respectful king.

There are straight men who are golden retrievers and lovable and sweet. There are extremely masculine gay men as well. Every person has masculine and feminine energies. These are adjectives, not assigned to sexuality or gender.

I love how the straight men are portrayed here: considerate and thoughtful, effusive or understated; curious and take note of what their love interest wants, likes, and cares about. God knows we don't have enough in this world.

Do we have to portray men as aloof and unfeeling? Tsudere to be seen as a "straight" man? Domineering and invasive to be seen as masculine? What adjectives are supposedly for a straight man? a gay man? Is the 21st century in the room with us?

Whoa - strongly disagree on multiple fronts - where are you getting the evidence for the first two paragraphs? Where was it said that DD's dad wanted to legitimize offspring and was marrying to do so? DD's dad was womanizing, but DD definitely had some trauma with a bad divorce involving his parents and a revolving door of new potential/actual stepmoms who ignored him. The man rarely had home cooked food and his reaction to YS's mom giving him food was telling (plus the bonus scene).

I don't think YS ever said that she didn't want to reproduce either. She just doesn't think sex should come without feelings.

I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Joseon code, but that might be better reviewed thru women studies. One interpretation of the past *across* societies is that men treated women as property and objects, rather than giving them bodily and financial autonomy. They wanted to possess them and virginity had a perverse premium that is still perpetuated today, alongside with a fixation on body count for some men. Older women might have perpetuated the ideas of chastity and financially, wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters were dependent on their male family members. On the point of chastity blaming, case in point with the Hwanhyangnyeo post Imjin war and the comfort women post WW2.

Marriage was a financial transaction and regardless of economic class, a negotiation, merger and acquisition within families; not to ensure legitimacy for offspring. If you want to go that route, you're likely speaking of Victorian era-esque male family members demanding marriages to protect women's "virtues" if "defiled". Women have had to protect their bodies within and outside of marriage - then and now. Marriage allowed for some protection for their children, but likely, more for sons rather than daughters. A good fictional depiction of how there weren't always financial protections for legitimate daughters is the drama "Against the Current".

Agree with @Claire_zzzz that it's not new. If anything, recent media has been more tame than movies from the past. A classic horror movie that was more suggestive in tone is the 1960s version of "The Housemaid" - highly recommended if you want to try a study on East Asian horror and how they compare to say jhorror.

"Scandal" is an old classic adapted many times: the original is "Les Liaisons dangereuses" (Dangerous Liaisons), a French novel from the 18th century, considered to be an important part of French literature. Korea had a previous adaptation. The US had teen cult classic: 1999's Cruel Intentions, featuring Reese Witherspoon, Ryan Phillippe and Sarah Michelle Gellar. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a ton of other adaptions. To be fair, it's not my cup of tea, so if I know if it's an adaptation, I tend to avoid it, but to be clear, it's not a new concept.

Audiences might be a little frustrated with too many superhero movies, or adaptations of mangas etc, but it's a tale as old as time.

Not directed to you, but to anyone who might be scrolling: if you think current media is scandalous, you should try to read some Greek and Roman myths. Zeus had quite a sex life and caused Hera quite a bit of heartache. And sorry to break it to some of the innocents here, but Disney fairytales were cautionary tales for women. Not romances originally.

well, well, well. who's vulgar now? lols. @hyun, ignore this ignorant hater. there should be no reason for anyone to spew this much hate.

👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 perfectly well said and great call out. I loved how he kept reframing his ask until she got it. and what a great ask - how many people are willing to this for you to break free the shackles you unconsciously adopted from people around you? (he had a minor agenda for his part with his dad, but I was glad to see he didn't take advantage of her)

Mm, very fair point! Neither one has to bend their beliefs then: she could have sex before marriage as long as love was a condition; and he could change his mind that love exists...

While being more sex-positive is a different world view people can adopt, I appreciate the drama showing that women and men aren't equal in privilege when it comes to body autonomy.

The ex *might* have known but definitely wanted to take advantage of her inexperience for his own benefit. Agreed with your assessment of both male characters and I generally think Dal would be a green flag who knew how condoms work even outside of his job.

I would argue that given his personality, Dal wouldn't be so clinically uncompromising and not treat a one-night stand as no consequence (some might, but I doubt he would). He's quite empathetic and responsible. If a former one night stand was to come back to him with an unwanted pregnancy, I suspect he would support her decision whether that would be going with her to a clinic or supporting the child, but if marriage or love was asked of him, that's a different story.

Dal going about his day after a one night stand made complete sense, no? Both signed up for a social contract and the contract was complete.

Sidebar: one interpretation of him deleting his one-night stands' msgs is that he is not interested in anything more than a one night. This is the more likely scenario. The other more delulu romantic possibility is that he stopped having one-nights after YS came into his life, since he was surprised by her from day 1 and also distracted after their kiss. It's likely delulu, but it's a fun delulu haha

I think ML has been very obviously into her from day 1. He's just not aware of it. I would also argue that dates are just intentional time spent with one another with a bit of a built romantic atmosphere. These two keep spending time with each other and they end up challenging each other and being romantic. They are more communicative than some couples who just visit cafes and do dates without tough conversations.

Dal even explicitly asks: were we in a romantic atmosphere just now? knowing taht the vibes were romantic and she was just trying to comfort him. He was teasing her a bit (but yes, the answer was yes, Dal.)

another positive way to see it is greater acceptance for queer couples in society. 10 years ago, portrayal of gay couples was scandalous - "coffee prince" made Hallyu waves and that was still a heterosexual couple with a sexual orientation struggle plot. I, for one, am happy to see mainstream media treating a potentially gay couple as ordinary and a FL lead who wants to support a gay couple, encourages them to come out, and recognizes that the queer community still has a lot of struggles. We've come a long way.

There are plenty of communities esp in Asia where you have gen z/millennials, who say they are tolerant and progressive, but have never met an out of the closet gay and are understandably ignorant but not malicious.