jarabaa

Thank you for your very full response to my message. I understand why you commented as you did. You give your reasons and I can see that you felt that the way you expressed yourself was justified and in line with the point you wanted to make. I'm not trying to engage in some wanton act of "judging" anything, however. You see things the way you see things, and you feel it's a case of "spreading hate". You are very welcome to stand by your opinion and re-affirm the rightness of the words you used. I don't want to try to convince you you're wrong or try to make you change your mind. You are entitled to your opinions, as you say. I simply take another view on JPNY01's comments - you hear "hate" in them - and I don't. For example, that line about Thai BL being a "wasteland" etc. You hear that as "spreading hate"; I don't. We interpret the comment differently, attach a different weight to it. It doesn't mean I am saying that you're not entitled to hold opinions, or that you're wrong, or that I need to change your mind.

As I wrote, it's more the case that I generally feel very wary about
a whole lot of current opinions expressed all over the place which focus on attributing "hate" to others - and which speak of innumerable things having a "toxic" quality. It is simply something I've observed. And something which I don't feel much sympathy for.

And again, you're right: JPNY01 did express a number of negative opinions about this series - and it is perfectly logical to think that if a person is "unhappy about certain things", then that person should "stop coming back" to the things that make him or her unhappy. That is probably very good advice in most circumstances. But in many areas we do come back, again and again, to things that make us unhappy. In politics, in art, in human relationships, in our everyday human habits, we constantly keep coming back to things that make us unhappy. Maybe we need others who intervene, as you did, and say "go find you happiness elsewhere". There are probably many situations where it's worth saying that to someone. But ... I'd say it with caution! It can very easily sound a bit like "get lost", "take your business elsewhere", "try closing the door from outside", and so on. More importantly, the reality is that there are many, many good reasons why it's also right and healthy to return to things that make us unhappy.

Hmmmm. I've begun to notice something in the world of online comments ... I am very slow on the uptake, I realise - maybe this has always been the case. But there are a whole lot of repetitious accusations using the terms "hate" and "toxic". Look, there is nothing in JPNY01's comment above which expresses hatred. Nothing. Criticism is not the same thing as hate. If one likes, say, opera, and then complains that all operas being performed are boring, that absolutely is NOT "hate". JPNY01 feels that there are some tired formulas in the plotting of BL series - so do I. That was my original point when I started this thread above. I felt that this series was repeating some plot devices which I have seen many times and which I feel should be laid to rest. JPNY01 has echoed my complaint and compiled an excellent shortlist of those tired devices. But how could that be likened to "hating" something or indeed "spreading hate"?

Plus - what's with this telling others to go "go find your happiness elsewhere"? I'm sure we're all capable of setting out in search of our happiness without being ordered to do so by anyone else - this seems to be just another way to say "get lost" or "beat it". Sorry, we don't need that here. People who criticise things should be free to do so without being afraid of accusations of "hate" or being told to go somewhere else.

Right, I'm here for the actors. Pod totally enchanted me as P'Sun in Dark Blue Kiss. Brilliant role, beautiful man. I am not sure he's going to totally enchant me in this. Then there's Khaotung/Thanawat who was rather adorable as the cute philosopher in 2gether. And I'll go anywhere that I can catch a glimpse of Toptap & Mike doing ANYTHING. But .... hmmmm. This has so many features that really put me off, things we've seen again and again in BL. And which for me add up to a stereotypical, negative and somewhat absurd caricature of gay men's lives. Likable, normal, sweet gay male characters inexplicably falling for over-the-top super-straight studs who spout homophobic rubbish all the time, silly plotlines which suggest that a heterosexual he-man may just turn gay for one guy, and of course a "girlfriend" waiting in the wings to storm into the plot around episode 10 or 11 to reassert the superiority of the heterosexual norm and eliminate any sparks of m/m romance. We've seen these devices so many times before. My heart sinks.

OMG ... please please please. The most engaging, interesting, convincing and hot m/m couple I've encountered in a while. Two very distinctive and different characters, a very plausible love story, sizzling sexy interaction (best kisses this year), plus humour that really worked and had me smiling and laughing. They lit up Why R U but ended up getting rather short-changed in terms of airtime and plot development in the late episodes - due to Covid-related restrictions & upheavals. So if we are getting an opportunity to immerse ourselves fully in the delightful reality of Saifah+Zon, bring it on! Please don't let this be one of those announced "upcoming" shows that never actually comes up.

I'm a bit thrown by the belabouring of the "wife" theme. They're both men. In the past, viewers in various parts of the world have complained about men in Thai series referring to their male lovers/partners as "wife" and "wifey". For a number of reasons. I've sympathised with their concerns, but I've been very willing and interested to read detailed cultural accounts explaining Thai ideas of gender and marital relations and the understanding of "wife" and "wifey" when applied to a man, plus I appreciate the challenges and ambiguities of translation. Also, we need to ask why it is that we (some of us) find this wife vocabulary so jarring, incongruous - and nowadays the reality is that I find it much less disturbing than I did two years ago. I'm not going to insist that two male partners have to call each other "husbands" or "parnters" or "spouses". But in ep 1 I felt we had a lot of "wife" and "wifey" and it did seem ... jarring, incongruous. I wondered what the writers were getting at. At the end of the day, Type isn't a woman, and you certainly don't get the feeling Tharn thinks of him as some sort of woman.

Look, there's no way I can pretend I'm not over the moon. I LOVED Make Our Days Count - like so many others, right up to the beginning of the final episode. And then I was dismayed and sickened by that last episode, which was so shocking and incongruous and out of keeping with everything that preceded it. I remember being in Taipei at the time (I live in England): last December. I went to a concert by Arrow Wei, who sings that heartbreaking song at the end of each episode ("I'll never know why you had to go" - I've translated it elsewhere). When she sang it, without any introduction, there was silence, no applause afterwards - honestly, we were all in shock, mourning for this sweet fictional character, Yu Xi Gu, feeling the pain of his equally fictitious lover Hao Ting. But they were real to us at that time, at that concert - that's the power of drama, fiction, acting, music, the imagination.

But the more important reality is that everything up till that final instalment had ... enchanted me, held me spellbound. The amazing foursome - Hao Ting and Yu Xi Gu, Lu Zhi Gang and Sun Bo Xiang - two mesmerising couples - frankly, I can't wait to see them on the screen once again. I have no idea how on earth Yu Xi Gu will be, er, brought back to life - but there are all sorts of rather ridiculous plot devices which can be attempted. Let them get on with it and attempt it, however ridiculous! It's a fiction; the laws of fiction are not the laws of reality. There are many amazing films - e.g. Sliding Doors, Groundhog Day - which play with alternative realities. There are re-written endings; there is always the "solution" of a dream, nightmare, hallucination, mental aberration, vision, drug trip, who knows what, to explain the one incongrous blip - but honestly, we are all very keen to see that episode in effect re-written out of existence. Good grief, I so much need to observe Hao Ting delight in discovering and re-discovering his beloved Yu Xi Gu every single day, I want to wallow in Yu Xi Gu's exploration of the gorgeous reality of happiness with Hao Ting after a life of deprivation and struggle, I look forward to seeing Sun Bo go on and on being young and hot and impetuous and ardent, I yearn to follow the beautiful Lu Zhi Gang as he emerges from his modesty and reserve and develops in exciting new ways, prompted by his bold, passionate young lover. Oh yes. Bring it on! Please.

I sort of agree with both of you. I also note that people have a way of complaining about certain out gay & trans characters. I note that sometimes I myself don't like these characters, or find them deeply tiresome. However, I do find it useful to ask myself whether my unease comes from "internalised homophobia". Others may be totally free of all traces of internalised homophobia, but with many years' experience living as an out and not-so-out gay man in various settings, I do discover attitudes or responses in myself which definitely have their origins in early, profound feelings of damaged self-respect.

But I also do agree entirely that effeminate gay male and trans female characters are crudely and abusively manipulated as some sort of "light relief" - or worse - in some BL series. Just as we encounter weird malign would-be "gilrfriends" who are dumped into plotlines out of nowhere in order to threaten male/male romances - and people with darker skin who are portrayed as thugs or criminal elements. All of these are overworked, disturbing, offensive stock dramatic devices whose time is long past. In the meantime, I have seen some effeminate gay and trans characters on certain Thai series who appeared to be an advance, no longer having the negative function of their predecessors.

Finally, ... I can't really understand what it means or what purpose it serves to condemn another person here as "disrespectful" and guilty of "performative allyship" ... I don't even know what performative allyship is. Yes, call me stupid, but I don't. Yes, I can look it up. But these dismissive criticisms of others' failings make me uncomfortable. I notice, for instance, there is an increasing tendency of commentators to "call out" (a very popular present-day expression) all sorts of characters, relationships, actors, storylines, comments, etc as "toxic" - which actually means poisonous. Again, this "calling out", which is the same as condemnation and dismissal, makes me very uncomfortable.

Sorry, directly above you did declare that jpny01 is "openly prejudiced", you then poured scorn on various quotations which you selected from his/her comment (adding "Stop making up stuff. There is no such shit"), and you concluded "I wonder who hurt you". Those are your words. They are abusive, sorry. None of us is here to start analysing the emotional make-up of totally unknown persons offering comments on Asian drama series. And if we do go so far as to start commenting on some unknown stranger's emotional and mental health, well, ... yes, it does look as though we are "invested" in something - indeed, maybe rather overinvested - especially when we find ourselves writing things like: "Stop making up stuff. There is no such shit". Your words.

I am the person who started this conversation with my comment abov, and I have to intervene now to defend "jpny01" - whom you accuse of being "openly prejudiced towards any form of heterosexuality and bisexuality" - then adding: "I wonder who hurt you". I am sorry - this is the worst sort of abusive comment and I am horrified that my original points about this series provoked anyone to write something so disgusting. Quite obviously jpny01 is not "openly prejudiced" - what on earth are you talking about? And to start psychoanalysing a total stranger who has done you no wrong and pronounce him or her "hurt" - what on earth is that all about? It's trying to silence and discredit another person by suggesting that he or she is some sort of "hurt" individual motivated by emotional distress. Sorry, that's not on.

You're very right. We see a lot of what you describe. And Theory of Love - I stopped watching it. But the whole BL scene isn't totally that bad. We do have the weird phenomenon of the totally straight guy who has no interest in men who then falls for one single male individual. But we're getting less of that. Or we were getting less of that. About a year ago, we had Dark Blue Kiss, TharnType, Until We Meet Again, Why R U? ... These all seemed to show guys who are attracted to guys, i.e. they're gay or bisexual, and we've seen some great coming-out scenes too (in Dark Blue Kiss, in He's Coming to Me, etc). 2gether confused us a bit - but Still 2gether corrected the confusions .... So there are Thai series that give us a full, rounded picture of a relationship between two gay/bi men who fully realise that's what they are and who are recognised as such by others.

Interesting! Thanks. That was the impression I was coming to.

Yes ... I've continued watching, and I have to say I've really enjoyed and appreciated the tender, ardent way this relationship has been developed. You really feel Solo and Gui falling in love, you understand what they come to love about each other, and they do seem to be able to deal with the reality that they're in a male/male love relationship. We even see evidence that they could be attracted to other ... men (i.e. not mysterious "girlfriends") - though we know they love each other! It's well done. It's also quite slow and I have savoured the build-up of the relationship. But I did see a woman character declaring "I am Solo's fiancée" in the trailer, definitely, so I'm still apprehensive...

Hmmmm... well, maybe you are right. Maybe the series reflects or reflected a homophobic society. Maybe that's what it's all about. But - take the girlfriend Pang. She seems like a lot of other malicious "girlfriend" characters. I see them as a plot device which is both anti-gay and anti-woman. Perhaps my observations are inaccurate or delusional, but from what I see, whether a society is homophobic or not, romantic male/male relationships are not generally troubled by hostile, malevolent "girlfriends". Secondly, whether a society is really homophobic or it isn't, depicting a gay relationship as something closely associated with violence and criminality does not strike me as reflecting the way things really are - it strikes me as a deliberately hostile slant. Finally, I agree, you're right, one cannot judge an entire show/series on the basis of a certain number of episodes rather than the whole thing right through to the end. I have known series which have had really disagreeable "glitches" along the way but ended up leaving a very positive impression at the end. But as I think I made clear, especially with the introduction of the Pang "girlfriend" character, my heart sank, and I felt very dismayed by what I saw as evidence, yes, of homophobic writing, direction and plot development. And as you see, other viewers have already told me (above) to stop watching! So - what do you think? Should I continue? Or give up?

Thanks for the insightful and constructive advice. I have indeed stopped watching.

Oh, there are plenty of series that are not homophobic. Which are about a male same-sex romance and which ... don't drag in hostile "girlfriend" caricatures, don't show men reacting with horror at the thought of being gay, don't represent m/m love as connected to violence and criminality, don't add intrusive material kowtowing to the superiority of straight love etc. Yep. It's possible. Where can I begin? SOTUS. Until We Meet Again. Still 2gether. Gameboys. Advance Bravely. Dark Blue Kiss. Why R U. The Untamed. History 3 - Trapped. History 3 - Make Our Days Count. History 2 - Boundary Crossing. Ingredients. Because of You. Hello Stranger. And so on... quite a few. So now you know - your question is answered - I've told you "what series is not" homophobic ... Yes, they exist. Plenty of series. and most show all kinds of "drama" - loss, betrayal. mortality, illness, workplace problems, jealousy, etc. Sometimes they even show the true-life drama of dealing with real ... homophobia in everyday life! (Rather than using homophobic motifs and plot devices in telling their "BL" story.) As I say, it's possible. Believe me.

Thanks for your very wise and reasoned response. I am glad you entered into my thinking and grasped the things that were disturbing me, plus why I thought of them as "homohobic". I see you can understand Waan's and Pure's extreme reaction to the Dr differently, i.e. as relating to the idea of intimacy between the two of them, not the idea of same-sex intimacy, and I'm hoping you're right! Plus the "gilfriend" character looked like she was due to loom large as a new main character in this story, but if indeed she ceases to make further appearances and was just a temporary plot device, I feel a bit relieved, and maybe I'll continue watching.

Just a moment ... the trailer definitely shows us a "girlfriend", indeed "Solo's fiancée". What's this all about? At the moment, all Thai BL stories are dominated in reality by straight stories. This is true of "Friend Zone 2" and it's true of "My Gear & Your Gown". We often start off with something seeming to develop between two guys, but then a girlfriend is introduced out of the blue to threaten the gay relationship - and in reality reassert the superiority of the heterosexual norm (even if she ostensibly "loses" her battle against the Scourge of Male Homosexuality at the very end of the series, and the boys actually get together). But again and again, these girlfriend characters are added to the storyline, and a straight relationship story (even if it's doomed in the final analysis) becomes the focus and dominates the airtime. All too often, these crude, misogynistic "girlfriend" caricatures are built up into very major characters. So I have only very bad feelings about where "Oxygen" seems likely to go.

Was this series produced by the Vatican? It has to be the most homophobic "BL" series I've ever seen. Pai seems to be the only maybe-gay character; at least he has some sort of feelings for Itt which might be characterised as "homosexual". But these feelings are shown to be unrequited, dead-end, tragic, the cause of much grief to him. Itt, as far as we can tell, is straight. His girlfriend Pang, described above as a "support role", is very much a leading main character now, and she perfectly continues the long-established BL role of Evil Girlfriend Sent to Eradicate Male Homosexuality From the World. People may fantasise about Waan and Pure, but good grief, they are constantly talking about girls, how to flirt with them, which ones they fancy, getting them pregnant, having sex with "heaps of girls", and so on - and when the Dr mistakenly refers to them as boyfriends, they leap about in convulsions of horror and disgust at the very idea of being thought of as gay. Plus the writers think that's funny - showing two young men freaking out over the idea that someone thinks they're gay. Finally, every dimension of male/male love seems to be drenched in the most negative assocations: violence, misery, criminality, danger, loss, grief, unrequited love, etc.

Well, the simple fact of the matter was that the closing 5 minutes of episode 7 were absolutely outstanding. Worth waiting for. Can this high be sustained? We shall see. From now on, we're in to the New Tin/Can Territory! But the transition was gripping. I thought the scene with weeping Can in Tin's arms, begging him not to to disappear again, was it - and just watching the way Mean/Tin stroked Plan/Can's hair and comforted him is something I won't forget for a long time - but the following scene was unexpected and even more extraordinary. First the camera position, at floor level, then the complete focus on the actors' two faces, the mesmerising way that Can struggled his way to a triumphant admission of his feelings, the fidelity to the characters as we know and love them: Tin as ever almost immobile with tension disguised as composure, Can spontaneously stumbling from one naked, open confession of vulnerability to the next ... well, it was great drama, - and I acknowledge that I have re-watched it ... er, a couple of times.

Why is this so ... unknown?? No reviews. As of October, only 22 comments! Ratings from a grand total of 63 watchers. Yet it seems to be something of altogether historic status. A Chinese production, not Taiwanese, all about gay men being ... gay men. Living in couples. Falling in love. Coming out. Kissing. Cuddling. Sharing a bed! Talking about love (= between men), sex, m/m romance, intimacy, being gay, etc. I don't think I've seen anything like this coming out of China. Plus: high production values, impressive performances, fantastic actors, brilliant writing, lovely music.