bideshi

I see. You took a break from watching, but you still lurk in these forums. So I guess you haven't even seen the episode with the Arab prince?

Whoopi, is this you? Or is this Sunny? I didn't know that the ladies of the View watch Kdramas and come here to spout the same idiotic debunked things.

You sound just like the racist grifters who started BLM and are now living in million-dollar mansions using donations without doing anything to actually help the black community. But at least they got something out of it. I feel bad for the supporters of BLM who do the bidding of their cult leaders without getting a mansion.

FYI: No Korean who thinks that it's silly to demand an apology for Samir's portrayal thinks that Korean society doesn't have lots of ugly parts. Of course it does. Why do you think Kdramas show school bullying, corrupt businessmen/politicians, domestic violence/misogyny so often? And there are many TV programs that positively portray foreigners of all kinds and show their struggles/successes living in Korea. So to become outraged about 10 second of a comedy--and note that nobody has denied that there have been Arab princes who do far worse than what Samir was seen doing--and to claim that the lack of research (as if they were making a documentary) proves racist intent is ridiculous.

Since you say that you can see ugliness is other cultures and like to be balanced, I hope you can also see the ugliness in the black culture in America and the corruption in the BLM movement. But you probably can't or won't since you seem to have the incredibly damaging mindset of "blacks can't ever be racist, can't ever be faulted because we're going to be victims forever." It's extremely hypocritical for someone who refuses to own responsibility to call on another race/country to take responsibility.

Korea has been invaded and subjugated multiple times by foreign nations--as recently as in the 20th century. So from your way of looking at things, Korea could have just blamed outsiders for its situation, could have played the victim card. If a nation could be said to have historical PTSD, Korea would probably fit the description. But dwelling on the past or blaming others for its internal problems might have felt good, but it wouldn't have helped the country achieve the kinds of things it has done in just the last 70 years. I'm sure Korea has had its share of people who preferred to play the victim game and wanted reparations for this or that, but ultimately, they are not the ones who helped the nation develop. So perhaps you can ask yourself if your mindset is helpful to yourself or to your people. Maybe you can do some genuine research and reflection on what causes the black criminal rate, the breakdown of the black family, the failure of blacks in education, the percentage of blacks on welfare. But if every answer is a predetermined "Bad white people and systemic racism," then I'd argue that you aren't genuinely interested in finding out the truth, that you're not genuinely interested in seeing or doing something about the ugly aspects of black culture in America. Screaming "white power and systemic racism is the main evil that blacks face in America" and having that echoed in the media, popular culture and academia will not do anything to actually improve the life of blacks in America. How do I know that? Because history shows me that it hasn't helped--or to be more accurate, it hasn't helped anyone except the professional race hustlers (e.g. the BLM leaders, Al Sharpton, Joy Reid) who make a very good living doing it.

It must be so very hard on you to watch entertainment from a country you hate so much. I'd suggest that you find a country free from racial prejudice and stereotypes, a country that doesn't use any stereotypes at all in its books/music/TV/movies, and live there happily ever after. No, actually, I take that back; your racist presence would ruin such a utopia, so please don't even think about going there.

Hey, you do you. Keep on seeing injustice everywhere, keep on blaming others for your problems and the problems of your group, keep on believing that BLM has been helpful to the black community, keep on ignoring inconvenient truths, keep on making identity politics your religion--and see how successful you can be at being a joyful person who promotes actual good in this world by forming meaningful relationships with people of all colors, religions, and political persuasion.

Yes, I agree that prejudice and racism, though usually related, are technically different. But can you agree that all people (black, brown, white) can be prejudiced and also harbor some racism against another group? Can you agree that black people in a black-majority African country can be racist against minority whites or Asians in their country, or does their skin color somehow make them immune? Since you seem to be saying that blacks can be prejudiced but not racist, I'd like to know what you mean--especially if you are referring to all black people.

At the risk of oversimplification, I do think a lot of the outrage can be explained by a hyper-sensitive, nationalistic, arrogant, self-absorbed yet self-unaware victim-mentality that has bought into cancel culture. I think it explains a lot of the troll-filled toxicity on so many online forums.

So I very much appreciate your genuine attempt to explain and understand.

I think we'd both agree that the world would be a much better place if we focused on real-life behavior (starting with our own) and fought against real-life instances of injustice (against any nation or race) rather than showing faux outrage toward a minor blip in a TV show.

See you around on these forums--though for lighter topics, I hope.

I appreciate your thoughtful input and attempt at explanation. I'm not sure I understand 100% of it clearly, but I think you're wanting people to see this King the Land incident from a socio-political perspective, as a matter of power dynamics between traditionally powerful countries and races (the West, Christianity) and the traditionally less powerful countries/races/religions (the East/Middle East, Islam). I see this as more of a personal/moral/spiritual matter--that is, everyone (people of every race/country) is guilty of racial stereotyping of foreigners (some extremely harmful, some perfectly benign). I think once we accept this, we can be less thin-skinned and react more reasonably to perceived slights; rather than becoming outraged and engaging in cancel culture, we can laugh at ourselves (which is part of what it means to have a good sense of humor), and also ask ourselves if we might hold any similar stereotypes of people from other countries/races/religions. That's why I think the outrage that's been shown is wrong-headed, unreasonable, blind and hypocritical. And I don't think being a member of a minority group, a less powerful group, excuses such blind hypocrisy.

Getting back to your socio-political perspective, I can accept that those in the majority, those with power who control the media/narrative, can and do portray the less powerful minority in unflattering stereotypes. (That's been true since the beginning of time, and to a large extent I think it'll be true forever because 1) human beings always misuse power and 2) human beings naturally are going to be more generous to the familiar vs. the unfamiliar. I believe that this kind of sinful nature is the only systemic thing that can explain any of this.)

It seems that you think that the Middle East/Muslim nations have suffered and still suffer from stereotypes held by the West. But honestly, in 2023, I don't think the Middle East/Muslims (or at least the Arab Muslims) needs to have any sense of inferiority on the global stage any more. Whether it's hosting the World Cup or bringing the best golfers and football players to its leagues, or having the best airlines in the world, or exerting enormous influence on the global economy through oil, or having a very wealthy citizenry, I'd say that Arab Muslims have come a long way and have much to be proud of and envied. That is, I don't think the Arab Muslim's persona is so weak anymore that it's going to be much hurt by the portrayal of Samir. Let's remember that he wasn't portrayed as being an ignorant, backwards, cruel, woman-oppressing, fundamentalist terrorist. He was portrayed as a powerful, successful, charming, funny classmate and rival to Gu Won. So I'm not really seeing the insult here. I don't think this this is the same kind of insult as the Chinaman in Breakfast at Tiffany's.

One more point regarding your socio/geopolitics perspective on racism. If you look at people groups more locally, then almost every group has power over another group, including minority groups and including the ones "oppressed" by the West. That is, every group is both a victim and a perpetrator of holding/perpetuating unflattering stereotypes of another group. In any country or even just a region of a country, the majority population will hold power over minority populations, often acting unjustly and mocking them with stereotypes. I'm sure that's been true in Middle East/Arab nations. Even as they were "victimized" by Western stereotypes, I'm sure that they perpetuated stereotypes of minorities of other races and religions who lived among them. To me, that's the CONTEXT that MATTERS. That's why I can't accept your premise that stereotyping powerful Caucasians is somehow VERY DIFFERENT and excusable compared to stereotyping Arabs/Muslims because they are powerless, hapless victims of Western stereotypes.

No nation/race is so powerless or innocent that it does not perpetuate negative stereotypes of minorities, and I see it as being intellectually dishonest and morally wrong to excuse bad behavior by saying "But it's not hurting them because they're powerful." To me, that's the same nonsense I hear in America where some people say that a person of color can't be racist against white people.

But apparently he doesn't drink or let women touch him. :-)

"if this was about any other culture..." I don't think showing a woe-is-me victim mentality is a good look. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that most people who think the reaction is overblown do so as a matter of principle, not because the character was an Arab/Muslim. Please get off your low horse; Arabs/Muslims simply aren't that special and people are not sitting around thinking of ways to offend them.

So what would have been a sensible way to portray an impulsive, worldly Arab prince with an apparent fetish for Korea girls that isn't based on a stereotype? (I thought that the fact that he had learned Korean because he was in love with a Korean girl made him a completely un-stereotypical (and unrealistic) Arab prince. But one scene of him drinking and people claim that Koreans are portraying a stereotype of Arab men. It just doesn't make sense.)

Do the dramas in your country ever portray princes drinking in bars with women? Can they do that in a sensible way not coming out of stereotypes? If not, is it because princes never do anything against Islamic law, or is it because the producers/actors would be punished in some way?

These are all genuine questions because I really want to know how Arab shows would sensibly portray less-than-perfect members of the royalty.

This is what I've learned through this "controversy":
1) There are a lot of extremely thin-skinned Arab/Muslim apologists who are offended by anything but the most positive portrayal or stereotypes.
2) There are also non-Arab/Muslims who are also just as thin-skinned and are ready to be offended on behalf of any group that feels aggrieved for any reason.
3) There are many people who can't seem to appreciate the difference between the purpose/rules of comedy vs. a serious drama or documentary.
4) There are many people who can't seem to understand that portraying one character in a certain way is not the same as saying that he represents a whole race/religion.
5) There are many people who are blinded by a 7-second shot of a character and unable to see the other aspects of the character in the rest of the episodes.
6) There are many Social Justice (keyboard)-Warriors who think that they are being sufficiently righteous by demanding an apology from a TV station; these are the types who when their angry demands are met by an apology written by a PR firm simply move on to the next cause, the next thing that offends them. They have no real interest or stake in seeing any real change. They simply want to feel good about themselves that they were able to express their outrage and think that forcing someone to apology is their good deed of the day.
7) There are many hypocrites who think that somehow Korean media is unique in using stereotypes in their shows, who are willfully blind to the stereotypes held by their own people and seem to be able to excuse the true injustices and social evils in their own countries. This type of hypocrisy exposes the emptiness of their complaint.
8) There are many people who ignore inconvenient facts because they prefer to express their feelings. Their only argument seems to be "I found it offensive; therefore it's wrong"; and they refuse to, or are unable to, consider any reasonable nuances or questions, such as "Is the portrayal false?" or "Was it meant to be a general characterization of a whole race/religion?" or "Was it appropriate considering the genre?" or "Was the drinking the main portrayal of the character? Did the show repeatedly show him doing it as if to emphasize that aspect, or was it a minor detail?"
9) There are many people who have no sense of proportion. They think that a 10-second clip in a comedy can somehow turn Koreans into anti-Arab/Muslim racists. They think that a character's background detail shown for about 10-seconds is the only thing notable about the character. And they think that showing a minor unflattering detail about a character in a comedy full of exaggerated, unrealistic behavior is somehow akin to the President of Korea being caught on tape saying "All Arab/Muslim men are immoral drunk womanizers." If he'd said that, I'd join you in condemning such ignorant racism. But in the case of Samir, I'm just going to enjoy the portrayal of an immature, spoiled rich young man fighting sweetly and in vain for the affections of a beautiful Korean hotel worker.

I don't know how much longer people will continue to write in to say that King the Land was racist and an apology is in order. But if they do, I hope that they will do so in a nuanced way in which they can acknowledge the relative size/importance of the issue, in which they show that there is some truth behind the portrayal, in which they can admit that their own media also need to work on how best to portray foreign characters. If not, I will not be able to take such complaints or charges of racism seriously.

I have no idea what country you're from, but I find it very, very hard to believe that your TV/movie industry can make shows that are completely free of stereotypes about another country/race/culture. Just as a test, think of the stereotypes that come to mind about Americans or Israelis. And then ask yourself if any of those stereotypes have been present in any of your shows. I honestly can't think of any country/race that is so respectful of America and Israel that their shows contain no stereotypes. But if your country is that lone exception, please write down what country/race is so righteous and let's see if others agree or can find examples of negative stereotypes in your films.

Thanks for the info. I just learned on the internet that a Muslim man can only marry a woman from the people of the Book (Muslims, Jews, Christians), and so can't marry Hindus or Buddhists (or presumably atheists). Interesting. I suppose just self-identifying as a Muslim/Jew/Christian is enough since there are plenty of nominal believers who don't really know the God of the Scriptures or are interested in following the commands in the Scriptures--which makes them really no different from Hindus/Buddhists/atheists. Samir didn't seem to be very interested in Sa Rang's religion when he asked her to marry him, when she could easily be a Buddhist.

Those outfits for the home exercise scene!!! Almost made me burst out laughing. Props to the costume designers.

Interesting. Would I be correct to assume that a Muslim man who marries a non-Muslim is probably not very religious, and so wouldn't necessarily mind if his children chose a different religion? That is, Islam allows children of a Muslim man (or at least boys?) to choose a different religion?

I laughed at So Jeo's reaction to eating beef (hanwoo, I presume). In her understated way, she reminded me of all the mukbangs of foreigners trying hanwoo for the first time. That's what they can do to earn some money: start a mukbank Youtube channel and react to eating all kinds of things for the first time.

Anyway, I can't wait for the storyline of So Jeo acting opposite Deun Myung on a K-drama. Besides the obvious romance possibilities, I hope we'll see some interesting insights into the K-drama industry from a Joseon lady's perspective.

Thank you! Finally someone shedding light instead of just starting fires. I stand corrected; please forgive my ignorance.

Question: Does Islam allow for the non-Muslim woman to stay a non-Muslim in the marriage, or is she expected to convert after marriage?

I think royalty should be respected when they act with the honor and grace that we expect of royalty. And if I can't criticize royalty when they fall short of such honor and grace, if I fear punishment for such criticism, then I'd have to seriously ask myself whether I want to live in such a society.

Thank you for outing yourself as a naive, believe-every-stereotype-about-another-race, make-generalization-about-a-whole-race-from-some-bad-examples racist. Thank you for outing yourself as someone who is so xenophobic that he can explain away anything bad about his own people, yet can negatively stereotype a whole other nationality. Thank you for outing yourself as someone who is so thin-skinned and ignorant that he's blind to what fiction/comedy is and does. I think your post should go viral as a Public Service Announcement for how not to be racist toward others and how not to be naive about self.

Your post has no merit because King the Land was not saying "All (or only) Arab men/princes are like Samir" or "No Korean men are like Samir." And as far as I can tell, no one has written in this forum, "Wow, I didn't know that all Arab men/princes were like this! Why can't they be like Korean men who are all morally pure?" Samir's behavior would be a complete non-story if it weren't for all the protests. It's clearly a case of "the lady doth protest too much."

What I understand is that you will not tolerate any negative portrayal of your culture and religion. That's fine; you do you. Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to point out the inconsistency, irrationality and hypocrisy inherent to virtue signalling cancel culture, and advocate for freedom of expression and creative freedom over state-sponsored, religion-sanctioned propaganda. Because there's always a slippery downward slope in banning ideas in creative works to banning news stories and factual history.