NNN

Yeah totally agree!

Also the info about the caliber of the crew was informative, and her view on ZZY being an arrow-type of actress resonated with me, having seen her other works. I think it's fair if you disagree with her (I do, many times) but calling it pointless seems like a really strong blanket statement?

I thought she listed out the mary sue quality quite clearly though? And I don't think what she said about English reviewer (I don't remember that part but I'll take your word for it) is that deep, let's not assume bad intents if it wasn't explicitly stated.

This! Our enjoyment is greatly affected by our expectations. Historical "serious" dramas have a different level of expectations from idol dramas. High value production and talented crew also set up different expectations. She did give the drama one gold mind so I don't know why people reacted so negatively to her very smart and we'll articulated (and subjective) review :/ I too am disappointed by the drama for certain reasons but I am enjoying and watching it - those are not mutually exclusive (and Avenuex said she would continue as well!)

Great explanation! I don't think people who point out the Mary-Sueness of the characters necessarily hate them (I don't!) It just seems like these immensely talented cast could do a whole lot more - more complexity. So rather than hate, it's a feeling of "if only". And modern fiction sensibilities have turned to more morally gray and complex characters, even in period drama (Yingluo in Yanxi, Ming Lan - she's not morally gray but she's definitely complex). I think as viewers we are entitled to hoping for more, and some viewers like myself like to consider what they watch a bit more critically. All in all, I think they're still enjoyable characters, with a lost opportunity to be great characters.

This! This is what I meant by being eager to see them (our leads) fail a little bit. She totally got plot armour in that arc, and many others. Sure, they lost a lot of people during the war but at no point did we feel that she was in real danger.

I think she proved herself enough as a strategist in the Huizhou 2nd arc (ep 15-17) that she could just stay behind and help with strategizing - that would be super fun to see!

Yup exactly! That's what I meant by circumstances. A flaw in characters or a quirk or a trait that's neither good or bad when standalone but can be bad certain situations- those are the things that can create drama, and it's not always the character's fault that they have these flaws. We as people are very much born out of our circumstances as much as we were born from our parents.

Loool hero syndrome! Love it!

True! I would love to see AW having to face difficult decisions from now on living with a hero like that, and how this trait - in and of itself not a flaw but could be a flaw when it comes to relationships- affects their marriage!

I love quirks, but I'd argue that GTY's core character flaw (that makes him very interesting) is he has trust issues - which is why he always wanted Ming Lan to show more affection. It's a lot clearer in the novel but essentially in the end, n the novel, he apologized to her, he knew she had trouble expressing her love because she too had trust issues (due to her dad), but he kept pressuring her to express and affirm her love for him. So his "wanting her to be jealous" while cute on surface, has deep-rooted cause in his personality formed by circumstances, and that's what makes him super interesting.

haha I think there's total value in watching raws! You can pay more attention to the actors without having to read subs lol

I'm off by one episode in the previous post too haha - edited! hope that helps :)

oh yeah you're right I'll edit! thank you!

speaking of accidental one night stands, there's one too many in this drama lol I'm not bothered by it, it's just funny.

np! I was doing this for a friend and thought might as well post here. And it gave me the perfect excuse to rewatch these scenes hahahaha

haha sure! So the army is running dangerously low on food, they can only last a few more days. This is because other nobles that have lands/castles in provinces that they need to pass through to get to the South (to battle the King's brother who's trying to overthrow the throne) are not letting them through and not providing food. His subordinates were debating - some of them thought that these nobles hated XQ since he became the Duke/Prime Minister's son-in-law (that means XQ has both army - the physical power - and status - the soft power; plus in cahoots with the PM family who's currently seen to be controlling the King, which is considered unsavory), so the female subordinate said it was AW's fault, but her brother said it is not her fault, and she is XQ's wife, our Wang Fei (Prince Wife), has great contributions to our victories, so he warned her not to say silly things.

That's a good question - it's hard to define character flaw because it doesn't mean much outside of context; flaw is meant to make a character realistic, relatable, or multidimensional. Flaws give characters a chance to face an internal - not external- struggle, and make them more interesting as people to watch. Would an eating disorder do that? Maybe, maybe not. Also I did not finish any of the dramas you listed so apologies for not being able to compare, but I did finish most of Yanxi Palace so let's use that: YingLuo almost *always* wins in her schemes, but to me what made her human was that she sometimes had regrets, she many times made calculating choices to serve her (revenge) goals. She's also rather ruthless emotionally. Or the princess Zhao Min in Heavenly Sword & Dragon Saber: also supremely capable as a strategist, but has a cunning streak in her decision making (not afraid to hurt a person or two), and can be really impulsive despite being most of the time very calculating/cautious.

Outside of costume drama, a recent example that came to mind is Tong Yao's character in "Nothing but Thirty". I had a debate with someone about whether she was a Mary Sue or not - that viewer thought she was a Mary Sue because she was so perfect: a good wife, a good mother, and a good businesswoman. To me, her character flaw was exactly that she single-mindedly focuses on her goals, and does not realize some key changes around her in her family; her intense focus also costs her emotionally. So, is "trying really hard to be perfect" a flaw in and of itself? No. Is it a flaw in the context of this character and thus making her much more human? Yes!

*Ep 18*: dramatic run, he kept praising her in front of his army (gah!)
At the victory banquet, third prince acted up and kept pressing XQ to drink the plum wine that was AW's favorite. XQ refused.

AW found out from her family spy that there was a family spy (from her dad) among the Ningshuo army. She was very upset, realizing that her dad both took advantage of XQ while not trusting XQ at all. While she was angsty by the garden he came out and hugged her. She said "You said you didn't drink but you reek of alcohol."
XQ: "I didn't drink; some drunk spilled wine on me."
AW: "Who could be so disrespectful?"
XQ: (small sigh) "Don't ask." and swept her off her feet to the bedroom!

[Bedroom]
He said he wish she attended the banquet so she could hear how much he praised her. She said why/what did you say? he said: you made the biggest contribution to the victory, you're the hero. She said: I guess I'm no longer the weak maiden, now I'm as hard as steel, with dirt on my face; and he laughed "yeah that sounds about right"
AW said even though he didn't say it, she knew the drunk that spilled wine was Third Prince. This time she met the prince and realized that she had already let go of her past. He said you were childhood sweethearts, grew up together, played together, and you let it all go?
AW: "Sounds like someone is jealous?"
XQ: " I AM jealous."
AW: "It's your fault for showing up late. That's why you must use the rest of your life to make it up for lost time."
XQ: "So demanding."
AW: "Why? You don't want to?"
"XQ: "No, I don't...I don't want to just use this life. I want you to use my next life, and the one after that too."

^ the best sceneee aaahhh. Note that it played out quite differently even with similar dialogue in the novel (I haven't read the whole novel but caught this exact scene in a chapter). If anyone's interested, here's a very rough translation/paraphrasing of this scene in the novel, in which AW didn't meet the third prince again until 2-3 years had passed (in the drama it was just 6 months).

"XQ asked AW how her meeting with the third prince was, his tone like a test. She stopped smiling, and said what he needed to hear: ""It's not the same. Childhood sweethearts, growing up together, at the end, we're at most best friends. Lovers who live and die together, loyal to each other...It's different."

He held her and stayed quiet for a while but suddenly held up her chin, looking happy but also pretending to be mad: "But I am always jealous."

She was surprised that someone as proud as he was would say the word jealous.

"I'm jealous he met you earlier. He dared to meet you a good decade before I did." there was no hint of smile on his face, a sense of injustice welling up in his eyes.

Such childish words yet spoken in a completely serious manner surprised her, and made her laugh."

*Ep 14 cont*: She's packing up, he said where you going, she wanted to go with him to the south (war stuff), he said no you have to go back to the capital; and finally showed her the letter from her dad. It said her mom is dying! She was very sad but also, "I don't know if my dad is lying or not but i should go" [TL/n: LOL I love how they both know this is some kind of ploy by her dad; her mom is ofc not dying]
XQ said, they are after all your parents, you can't avoid them, you have to face them, you'd regret it if you didn't go.
Then she realized that this is why he didn't let her read the letter the other day, and that he left work to take her out for a tour so she could be prepared for this.
She said yesterday [TL/n: the trip to the mountains] was the most unforgettable day for her! then some more politics talk lols

[Another scene:] They had some business to resolve in the prison: some more politics talk, she realized every one in court wants him/his life, she said "I didn't know you were so important!" He was amused: "I'm not important, my army/power is."
She was kinda sulking: "Then why did they want to kill ME?"
He laughed![ LOVE that laugh!] She was embarrassed "Why are you laughing!"
XQ" "Well you should blame my father in law for marrying you to me. It was I who got you involved in this mess."
AW: "I'm not sure who troubles whom here..." [TL/n: she's implying it was her dad that started shit which...is true]
XQ: "We're two grasshoppers on the same string, neither can run away now."
AW: "YOU are a grasshopper, I'm not!" [<--- this exchange was super cute despite the political context]

[Another scene] [AW miraculously finished XQ's robe in a night and was helping him put it on]
XQ: No one has ever helped me put on clothes before.
AW: Then I'll be the one to do that from now on.
XQ: Promise?
AW: Promise.
[my heart!!!]
XQ: that day by the cliff, the moment I held your hand, I already decided, what happened that day will be true for the rest of our life [meaning, they will be alive together and dead together]
and she said the same.

[Farewell scene, she was leaving to go back to the capital]
AW said she was surprised that she got used to life here, she will miss it, and she will quickly return
XQ: are you gonna miss Ningshuo, or me? [TL/n: this has the "do you want dinner, bath or me" energy]
AW: I will miss Ningshuo, and miss you even more.

From Ep 15-17 there were no OTP-together scenes, but I liked what AW told the third prince:
3rd Prince: I did come that day. [TL/n: like, 10 hours too late...]
AW said she loves XQ now, and their (the prince & her) timing didn't work out so let's let it go
Throughout this arc he kept telling her to run away during the crisis and she scolded him, that you're a prince, you should take care of your citizen, how could you run away? The 3rd time or so he did that, she said: "Do you know why I love XQ? because right now he's on the battlefield protecting the country. What are YOU doing?" [/burn!]