Vish

Ohh okok thanks!

Same here! When Seojun sat down next to her woah his expressions, especially when he said "no I'm here to eat with you" that was so hot. Suho's anger when he yelled "Han Seo Jun!" was so hot as well, they really nailed this scene!!

Yeah same... it really was emotional before she went to Suho and people at the convenience store were all bullying her. "It's not even my fault I'm ugly" really got to me...

and now we have to wait till tomorrow :(

Am I the only one who loved when Suho and Seojun got angry, like wow they looked so hot and the chemistry was so excellent, this has got to be the best cast of the year OOF

Woah for some reason this episode made me feel really heavy on the inside... I liked Ep. 3, it was a good mix of comedy at the beginning and then the sad parts at the end :) But one fact that remains is that I still can't choose between Suho and Seojun :D ALSO I feel like they're changing a major thing from the webtoon... unless I misunderstood. In the webtoon, Seojun doesn't know Jugyeong's bare face. But it seems that now that he caught Suho with her at the park, he also knows her bare face? Unless he only was able to see her back? idk but either way, I really liked this episode!!

Second lead syndrome has hit, and it's barely ep. 2! Here's the thing: it's literally like when Seojun is on the screen, I forget about Suho and when SUHO is onscreen I FORGET ABOUT SEOJUN but when they're BOTH ON SCREEN I'm not even lying, I get so tensed but it's like a good tensed. Not just because of their looks but Suho and Seojun have such good chemistry it's like WOAHHH. this second episode was so funny near the end, and it's been a long time since a drama actually made me laugh out loud. I'm really excited to continue, I really like all the characters so far :) can't wait for next weekkkk!

Yes you said it well, it's definitely the lack of cohesiveness. I didn't know how to put it but you're right.

I agree. I would say in the eyes of NDS, it might've seemed like a love triangle because since HJP was the one who wrote the letters, he might have felt competitive towards HJP, but in terms of SDM, she didn't even care if HJP was the one who wrote the letters. There was no scene or even a brief episode where she looked at him romantically because he was the "Nam Do San" from the letter. After she found HJP at the cherry blossom tree mail box, it is odd that they didn't talk about it at all.

Wow, first of all, I really admire your way of replying. You're really organized and that made it easier for me to navigate through your thoughts. Here are a few responses/thoughts I had:

#1

"I disagree, NDS character will not develop, until he stops being rewarded for his mistakes. It's all a matter of perspective, the problems, hindrances that NDS sees are actually not true barriers. They are artificial manifestations of his own mind, and thus just like a flight simulator, can only give him a modicum of experience for the real thing. But so far, the real barriers have never visualized, instead, most of his so called "trials" are met with reward instead. So he is not getting proper character growth, in fact it has emboldened him on the truth of his actions.

All these failures like cheating on the math test, getting SST acqhired and etc... has never been punished, he has reaped the rewards of his mistakes. So, a child, who never realizes how wrong he is, is going to keep doing those mistakes. The only character who was calling NDS on his mistakes was HJP, but HJP is the one person NDS chooses not to listen to the most."

This might be simply a difference in opinion because I do feel like NDS's character did develop pretty well. And I do not really think he was being rewarded for his mistakes whatsoever. Even though he has never been punished for the math test or SST acqhired, inner guilt definitely goes a long long way. I would like to distinguish the math test and SST getting acqhired for a second.

With the Math Olympiad, he won but gave his medal to another guy, yet all these years people like his parents were praising him for something he didn't truly earn. And on top of that, he felt like that Math Olympiad contest is all he had that was genius about him, and that wasn't even genuine accomplishment. All of this definitely can and did spur inner guilt within him, which is why felt belittled towards HJP and was not confident. Even though inner guilt is not a "punishment" I do believe that he has suffered enough to actually do something that was a genuine accomplishment of his and worked with SDM at Sandbox.

As for SST being acqhired, the way I look at it, it's a mistake that happened for the good. They were brand new start-ups when this happened, and because of Yong-San's revenge and miscommunications between SST, the fact is that it happened. It wasn't solely NDS's fault. And here, even though it may "look" like NDS was being rewarded for his mistakes, I really don't think he was. He was just making the best of a situation that he was in, and used it to become a better version of him. He was punished enough when he and Dal-MI broke up, and he strived to learn about self-driving cars with 2STO so he can work with Dal-Mi again, and show her a better side of him, which I think can definitely be considered character development.

But then again, as you said, it might've just been different perspectives. :)

#2

"HJP doesn't hinder the main couple, the main couple hinders themselves without HJP's help. In fact it's been shown multiple times how it's actually HJP who is the sole reason the couple is even together. I think a misunderstanding some audience have with HJP is the term success. Everyone keeps saying, oh HJP is successful, and he has a car, a nice watch, a nice apartment. And yet, time and time again, the show has placed emphasis that monetary success is not equal to true happiness/success. In fact the reason this concept is seen by some audience as success is it's prevalence of a success marker in other dramas. But in this one, money is not being used as a marker, true love is. HJP even says it in Ep. 15.

Using a person, HJP, as competition to achieve something is contradictory to the assessment of character growth. FYI. SDM actually shows a clear example of this. All her life, she has treated WIJ as her competition, and that is what drives her, until she fails. It is only when she let go of her competitive nature with WIJ that she finally matured, and her character grew."

You brought up some really good points here that I hadn't thought of. Now that I read what you said, I do agree that using HJP as the competition wasn't really the assessment of character growth. But rather than character growth, I do think he played a role in getting the characters to work harder and achieve their dreams. I do not know how to put it correctly but especially for NDS, he strived to be the man from the letters, knowing it was HJP.

And I thought of another thing while I was reading your comment. I think that something that I should've mentioned is that, maybe it's not all about HJP's tangible proofs of successes (car, watch, apartment) that made NDS determined. I think it was because he liked SDM but HJP was the one who wrote the letters, and he just wanted to be "on the same level" (for the lack of a better phrase) as HJP if he was going to try to make SDM love him for him. I think it was that love portion rather than success.

#3

"And this is exactly the reason people support HJP more than NDS. Because people don't like seeing good people being used like a doormat by SDM. And they don't like people like NDS to punch HJP and be antagonistic, then cry for help from HJP afterwards. It speaks poor volumes on both NDS and SDM for doing it to HJP. What we see instead is that the Main Lead HJP is trying to achieve happiness, and second leads NDS and SDM are hindering him. Start Up then becomes about the journey of HJP, and the trials he has to go through in the form of SDM and NDS."

This is another good point you make, but I would just like to quickly extend something. I know NDS and SDM are adults, but at the beginning in cases where they antagonized HJP (NDS more than SDM), they were really immature and lost. I don't think this justifies their treatment towards HJP, but I do think since they were new startups and inexperienced they were bound to make many mistakes. But in contrast, HJP is much older than them and has a lot of experience and expertise in the field, which is why he makes more rational decisions. Remember he is their mentor.

The SST acqhire really gave the main leads a sort of reality check though. I think that mistake + the three years apart from the other and away from all the HJP-SDM-NDS love triangle, really made them better entrepreneurs and more mature. This is proven in the 16th episode when HJP came to save CMC from another mistake (the news article), DS and DM already got in under control. So they really grew from all the misunderstandings and mess that was taking place.

I do though wish HJP can find happiness. I think in the end he is happy, but I do feel bad for him.

#4

"No, the reason the love triangle has never been a proper one is because HJP is never given the chance to be a proper competitor, contrary to what other people believe. If this has been a proper love triangle, there wouldn't be as many sore feelings as HJP got a proper chance, and she still chose NDS, but that is not the case. And, pretty sure nobody considers HJP a villain, even for a second.

In fact, there has been zero barriers to SDM and NDS love, but SDM and NDS themselves. SDM and NDS's relationship has been written too much like a Mary Sue, a literary device that is losing relevance in 2020."

I can see where you're coming from, but I have a contrasting opinion. I think HJP was a more-than-proper competitor, to say the least, but the screenwriters didn't fully use the opportunity well.

This might touch on what I said previously but first of all, HJP was the one who wrote the letters, so one would definitely think SDM would like him more than NDS. That's the whole reason why NDS was competitive with HJP, putting aside the wealth and success and all. I felt like it was NDS who didn't have a proper chance to be a competitor because everything SDM liked about NDS was HJP related (except NDS's hands). But the problem in the script is that the writers hint at a few romantic scenes between HJP and SDM (like when they drove in a car from the forest or SDM pestering him with questions or during + after the three years, them meeting up together), but none of these romantic scenes involve the intimacy the two of them built up from the letters. They didn't even have an episode or a scene where SDM expressed her liking for NDS from the letters. That's why it seems like HJP is not a good competitor, but in reality, I think NDS didn't have the proper competition and had to build his character.

#5

"This seems contradictory based on what you wrote, FYI."

Oh sorry, I didn't intend to make it contradictory, I was just trying to say my splitting feeling about it. :)


Thanks for discussing! :)

Thank you for discussing this!

1a. Genuinely I'm curious, but why do you think NDS is supposed be the antithesis of HJP? Is it because they are main lead and second lead or another reason? The way I saw it, in the whole show, each character was used for the development or influence on another character, including NDS and HJP. And I think for a while, NDS and HJP did shine in contrast but I think the big mistake with 2STO really changed NDS, and in the last episode, I think they got well over their differences and appreciated each others' success, which was what I was going for.

2a. I completely agree with this one, and it's one of the major faults of the drama. I was discussing this with another user and simply put, there were too many things going on in the first few episodes that they weren't able to balance the backstories well. They gave HJP's background and then switched to Sandbox struggles while adding romance, and etc. that NDS's struggles didn't show until way later. So I'm completely with you on that one :)

3a. I do agree with you there but I think it's also because of the reason from response 2 that it turned out that way. They didn't focus on NDS's faults early in the drama, and when it came to towards the ending, which is why HJP turned into the archrival and NDS didn't have enough time in the series to use the wise old man's advice and presence in the story to develop. Another execution fault.

4a. I do think NDS felt short of what he could be, but this is refuted more when he comes back from 2STO and especially in Ep. 16. I think him and DM realize their worth and lessons from their mistakes that they developed properly.

These were some nice points that you brought up, and I'm glad to be able to discuss this with you!

I agree with you about that. I think there were too many things going on in the drama; there's their start up business, SDM's determination to win against her sister, SST's lives, HJP, and the grandma. And while I appreciate the screenwriter focusing more on those things, they should have balanced out HJP's backstory with NDS's story, but we later see his guilts and personality like in Ep. 8 or something. Good discussion :)

I really liked the last episode! I think it tied everything together and I guess this might just be my opinion, but DS and DM really became stronger than ever before. Such a power couple... only wish I saw their wedding scene, but I like it how they did it through the pictures :)) this was a good journey, we had some bad writing here and there but I think overall it was an pretty good journey. I'm leaving this comment section now lol glad to watch Start Up with everyone!

Yeah honestly, I think the love triangle was dragged to add more conflicts and tension between HJP and NDS which I thought was odd but at the same time, we got to see NDS's determination for SDM since he was confused whether she liked him or HJP. I think tho they should've focused on the part in ep. 15 where HJP says stop feeling inferior to me... this was so powerful and could've been extended more to give a full rounding development for NDS + the story.

As for the kiss and all, it's typical kdrama moves so I just kinda brushed it off. Plus it's the meaning behind, I think Dal Mi was happy that he stood up for her when she was only trying to swallow her pride in front of Morning Company CEO.

Definitely, writing was good with some parts but in other parts it could use another look, to say the least. Thanks for discussing this with me!

Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one :)

Thank you so much! Yeah, though the ship is a major part of the story, so are the characters' individual lives and that's kind of where I was coming from :)

Ohhh sorry, I misunderstood you there. Yeah, in that case you definitely have a point. Tbh, the characters didn't get to know HJP's childhood at all. Even SDM, when she found out that HJP was the guy who wrote the letters, I don't think they had a conversation about how HJP found SDM's grandma, and his backstory. I do agree, they focused a lot more on NDS's childhood more than HJP's childhood. Yeah, this was one of those things the screenwriter didn't execute really well. Thank you for correcting me, I got a better perspective on the drama :)

You definitely have a point, but I feel like the three year gap when he was in 2STO made him more mature. At that time, he was not confident in himself, and in the same episode (or at a similar time), he mentions how he cheated in Math Olympiad and that's why he's not the guy everyone thinks he is. That's why he said that "pride" line to his father, because he genuinely felt like a loser. But when he came from 2STO with reputation that he earned from HIS hard work, and even helping SDM with the ransomware attack, I think he gained confidence in himself, and wanted to be SDM's pride and joy. He even mentions it in ep. 15, that the reason he was doing the self-driving thing at 2STO, was so that he would be able to work with SDM, and won't disappoint her. I hope that made sense?

But I totally get where you are coming from. If the screenwriter wrote it a bit better, I think it would've been much easier for the viewers to catch this, but I had to understand this after deep analysis.

This might be controversial so please if you're going to comment something on my post, please don't make it hate; let's have a mature conversation. This is just my opinion so please respect it as well.

Nam Do San vs. Han Ji Pyung. Let's talk about them.

I know that many are frustrated because they think HJP's character is better written than NDS, but honestly, this is the first love triangle in a while that I actually thought was amazing.

Love triangles in which a partner lacks something than the other has always been a bit odd for me to watch. This might be just a personal thing but I like love triangles where both parties have an equal chance. Now you might say that NDS lacks a lot compared to HJP, and that's where you're wrong (in my opinion).

NDS's character development isn't over yet and it's getting there. Besides being entangled in SDM's life, he has his own issues. He never felt worth it and what people praised him for have been his biggest guilts - one of them being the Math Olympiad contest. Since he cheated on the contest, he's always been feeling like he isn't living up to what people knew him for and felt like a loser. And even after HJP met him, he was told that he was a failure and his company wasn't worth investing in (I'm not mad at HJP here and I'll explain why this is important).

The way I see it, HJP serves his role as the second lead--- someone who hinders the main lead couple. But not through his charms or anything that you see on the surface, it's deeper than that. He has always been someone giving harsh critiques of people with the intention of helping them and NDS is a victim of this. Though it might've felt like HJP crushed NDS's spirit, if you think about it, just like how it was with SDM, NDS wouldn't have ever gotten to his place with 2STO and his improved confidence if it wasn't for his competitiveness of HJP. HJP is more successful than him and he used HJP as a sort of motivation to not only be with SDM but also gain his self-confidence and self-worth. For both the main leads, HJP was a mentor to get to where they are. And we see why NDS is suited for SDM towards the end of ep. 15 (and probably 16) because he got character development throughout the drama "using" HJP as competition. NDS became a better version of himself and doesn't lack anymore. The screenwriters made him like that at the end of the drama, not the beginning or middle since he needs to mature.

But it would've been cheap on the screenwriter's side if they made HJP an arrogant guy. After all, he is supposed to be how the main leads get their character development. If viewers had something to hate about HJP, then he wouldn't really be a good competition or role model to the main leads, and they would not change to their better selves the way they did now. And though others may disagree, I think this was another good job on the screenwriter's behalf. They made it in a way that he was "mean" enough to make NDS compete with him, but they also made him a likable character. That's how people are sometimes in real life. HJP is a successful man and he got there with hard work and harsh criticism. And he expects the same to be passed on to those he is mentoring. We are so used to seeing successful people like him have faults and a villain side to them. But he doesn't. He's such a lovable guy, who can put aside his professional and personal life. That's why I love him in here. He's a genuinely nice person who has worked hard to get where he is and there isn't anything to hate about him.

Let's say that HJP DID have a bad aspect of him that made viewers and other characters hate him. Wouldn't it be so easy for NDS to use that against HJP and win SDM's love? Do you see where I'm going with this? It would've been so easy for NDS and SDM to be together, and if HJP did have a bad side, the main leads would've lost an amazing role model that they could've matured from. That's the greatness of his character: he serves as a second male lead and a little bit like a villain but also a friend/mentor in need. That's why it's good that HJP is the perfect guy. Knowing that HJP can divide how professional and personal life and knowing how successful he is, NDS worked hard to get to his level and be as confident as him, aka not feeling inferior anymore as mentioned in ep. 15.

And finally, as for HJP's love life. It breaks my heart that SDM doesn't end up with him. He has had a hard childhood and now, he cannot get the girl he likes. This is the aspect that's splitting viewers and I totally understand, I was split too and this is the one part I wish the screenwriters can do something about. Even though I don't want HJP to be the bad guy, I hope he gets somewhat of a happy ending. If not, I think I'll be fine too because he made the girl he likes a better self of her and was there with her through some happy moments in life. That's just sometimes how our stories turnout. Even in real life. That's just what life is I guess. I know this is fictional and is supposed to be an escape from reality but considering how the drama is about startups it's going to get real with the characters as well.

I hope this makes sense to everyone ?. If I missed something or something is unclear, please let me know. I'm sorry if the comment was all over the place, I tried hard to make everything make sense. I honestly love this drama. The character challenges each character had and how they grew from it touched me.

I'd be happy to discuss this with anyone, but I request, please no hate comments and respect my opinion. Also, sorry if I wrote a lot, I'm a creative writing major and I tend to analyze shows a lot :)

Hmm, I see where you're coming from, but I saw it a bit differently. I think they were more focused on HJP's greatness since the beginning and that's why in the recent episode when HJP says "stop feeling inferior to me" to NDS, it's so powerful. Because since the beginning HJP's greatness (the Han River apartment, watch, his wealth basically) has been what's belittling NDS, which was why he never felt great. It's individual character development for NDS since he felt like nothing and we even see him compare himself to SDM and HJP and how they're better than him. Remember there were like episodes where NDS felt like he was nothing because he cheated on the Math Olympiad thing, and he always put others before than himself? But now he's slowly gaining confidence and using his own charms and AI skills to not only prove his worth that he thought he never had, but to also make Dal Mi love him for who he is. So I think the screenwriter did an amazing job with this aspect. And the CSAT thing you mentioned I think was just for humor purposes but if you go above and beyond, this is what I think the screen writer intended to do.