That was wildly entertaining to read. It somehow makes sense since Dosan is such a man child. I wonder if Sigmund…
I mean to me, it makes a lot of sense, and would actually explain NDS red hot rage towards HJP, and the way he acts like a lost child towards SDM.
I mean you can even insert a little bit of nightingale effect there, where NDS falls in love with his savior.
And think about it, how many scenes does NDS have with his real parents, where he treats them like his parents? Compare that to scenes where he treats SDM like his mother, and HJP like his father who he hates?
The main thing I am pointing out here, is that NDS love for SDM is neither real, nor is it healthy.
If anything, modern relationships have moved away from the toxic-stalkers like relationships.
Back in the day, when a man goes to any length to find out a girls phone number or address even, it was normalize, even considered romantic
These days, when a guy you don't know starts stalking you on social media, girls don't find it attractive anymore.
Young SDM even tells her dad in episode 1. The dad asks, why don't you just meet your pen pal, and young SDM replies, it's because nowadays, if a guy suddenly shows up and introduces himself, people will call him a stalker.
I would like to thank the poster OneAjhussi for giving me this new insight, and i'm surprised I didn't see it sooner. Now, please bear with me, because this realization is as mind blowing as it get. Warning: it's a long read!
Nam Do San suffers from what people in the field called Oedipus Complex. I will save you the time of googling it and give a brief description. According to Wikepedia, Oedipus complex refers to a child's unconscious sexual desire for the opposite-sex parent and hatred for the same-sex parent.
How does it relate to Start Up? NDS sees HJP as his same sex parent, while he sees SDM as his opposite sex parents. Let me further explain this.
You see when Grandma and HJP started writing the letters, they used the name of a real life NDS, and NDS’s backstory of being the youngest math Olympiad winner. We later find out, that although there really is a NDS in real life, his history was actually a fake, based on a lie.
In fact NDS himself calls himself a fraud to his parents, and has been lying to his real parents for the last 15 years (maybe even longer). So you see the NDS super-ego never matures, never manifest properly due to the lie he perpetuates towards his parents. And since he never feels support from his parents, and feels victimized by his father’s harsh standards, his super-ego does not latches on this parents. Which is why the mom had to ask, why not tell her first when his son is in trouble. The child – parent dynamic is missing here. The NDS that we see living in his father’s home, is in fact in itself a fake NDS, who has not formed proper parent-child attachments.
We see evidence of this, as throughout the show, we don’t see many significant parents-child interactions between NDS and his parents. The home, which is normally seen as a bastion of comfort for a child, is regularly seen as NDS, just as somewhere for him to sleep, and in one case, it even becomes a terrifying place for him to visit.
What does NDS super-ego do then? It proceeds to latch on to the first person who is nice to him, SDM. And to complete the complex, it latches on to the HJP, as the same sex parent that he despises.
Once the super ego latches on to these two pseudo parent, then the real NDS Is able to come out. He no longer has to pretend with HJP and SDM that he is this genius level math Olympiad winner, the real NDS is able to come out. And now begins the observation of the Oedipus Complex of one Nam Do San.
From this point on, I will be replacing HJP with “Father”, SDM with “Mother”, and NDS with “Son”.
The son has always favored the mother, as she has always been supportive of him, and has a faith in the son, that only a mother can have. So even though the son has not proven anything yet, the mother always has faith that the son can achieve great things. The father you see, is more pragmatic, he only believes in what he can see or touch. And thus his parenting style of tough love is not accepted as warmly by the son. For this reason the son despises his father, because he feels no matter how well he does, it will never measure up.
The mother is the son’s confidante, he tells her his dreams, and his insecurities, as most mother-son relationships should be. Her warm support, and blind faith, is very helpful in boosting the son’s confidence. While the father does, not want to sugar coat realities. His stern advices falls on deaf ears, as the son has gotten used to sugar filled praises the mom heaps on him.
As the nuclear family started to deteriorate, the son clings more and more tightly to the mother, wanting to spend almost all his time with her, even wanting to work in the same company as her, and starting to become very jealous whenever the mother and father would be spending time together. Because in the son’s mind, he is the child, and the mom’s world should only revolve around him.
Although the father had been taking care of his family, the son never sees this. To make an analogy, this would be like the father figure, making money to put food in the table, while the mom is the one who cooks the actual meal, and the son only saying thank you to the mom for the food, because he never sees, or never acknowledges what the father has done for the family. This is what happens in the midst of our story.
Has things always been like this? No, there was a time when the son looked up the father. But when the father asked the son to keep a white lie from the mother, the eventual guilt of the son for lying to his beloved mother eventually made him despise his father. Because in his mind, the father claims to love the mother, but continuous to lie to the mother. The sons relationship with the father quickly deteriorates, and he starts to view the father as an enemy, and his overprotectiveness of his mother reaches dangerous levels.
The son at this point has become overly possessive/protective of his mother. As he will physically challenge, stand up, and pick a fight, with whoever he feels is disrespecting his mother, which includes his father.
What once started as innocent parent-child love, slowly morphed into a more romantic love between mother and son, which culminated in a kiss (this is textbook Oedipus Complex). The son then proceeds to taunt the father on how the mother loves him, the son, more than the father.
Things come to a head when the mother finds out the father and the son had been lying to her, and she distances herself from her family.
The father, understandably knows his mistakes, and tries to make amends with the mother, and gives her space. But the son, feeling innocent in all of this, is unable to let go of his Oedipus Complex for the mother, and starts clinging even more tightly to her, even following her around wherever she goes, like a child who has lost his mother.
The son then proceeds to tell his mother, we don’t need father, we can be a family, just you and me. He also heaps praise to the mother telling her that she is the sole parent responsible for making him the great man he is.
The father, feeling guilty for his role in all of this, wants to make amends, and be supportive of the mother. But the son will not allow it, his Oedipus Complex has reached dangerous levels, and he doesn’t want the father in the mother’s life at all. He wants the mother to only see him.
And thus we are presented with the dangers of the Oedipus Complex, where the son sees himself as his own father, who is married to his mother.
Any psychology major would like to weigh in on this?
The scrunchy moment was shameful for HJP and showed how much of a weasel he can be but that's nothing compared…
"The scrunchy moment was shameful for HJP and showed how much of a weasel he can be but that's nothing compared to the moment he went to brag to Do San's face he confessed to Dal Mi"
And when NDS bragged that the present will outshine the 15 year history, this isn't bragging, and rubbing it in HJP's face? Or are we forgiving NDS because he's soooo handsome?
"He could have sent his questions to Dal Mi by email and called her to discuss them. But he really wanted Do San to take dictation of them from him and know how much he Ji Pyeong cares for her. He said to Do San he confessed to her and that he won't lend him his car or his past anymore. You imagine? His past? Like the reason Do San was with Dal Mi was because he used the past of Ji Pyeong? That fucker said himself in his past he and Grandmother made up the fake letters and the fake NDS and he is ashamed of it. And now he says he lent this past to Do San so he can be with Dal Mi?"
So, you'd rather he leave a voice message or post-it? As much as HJP dislikes NDS, and he admits it, he still manages to tell SDM the truth of what happened, without bias. While NDS doesn't do nothing lol, he allows his hate of HJP to make him do illogical decisions.
"This tells how much of an asshole Ji Pyeong is. Any guy in the world shocked and pissed off like Do Dan was, seeing a pile of shit like Ji Pyeong coming to tell all this to his face regarding his (Do Dan's) girlfriend would have punched this clown on the face."
SDM and NDS have already broken up at this point. HJP was in the right to approach SDM after they had broken up. If HJP had approached SDM while NDS and SDM were still a couple, you would have a point.
"Do San looked so detached and did not even cared about Ji Pyeong's BS because he was too saddened by the situation. I hope he will recover from this soon and quickly mend his relationship with Dal Mi. That fucker Ji Pyeong can see it and bleed. Lol."
Well, NDS is kind of a man child whiner, so i'm not surprised at all he's in full mope mode. But instead of seeking comfort from his actual mom, he seeks comfort from his ex-gf/pseudo mom. It's creepy actually how NDS leans on SDM so much, like a child does with his mom. I guess NDS has mom issues.
this is my personal opinion so; I do not like 2ml at all, he's so annoying! always putting himself 1st and flinging…
You find the 2ML annoying, because you feel he flings his money around? (when did he do this?) Also, keep in mind NDS flings his intelligence around as well. He challenges people in a know it all kind of way, he constantly talks to lay people using technical jargon. Some people will see NDS being cocky here, or feel he is being condescending with his intelligence.
Putting people down, yelling at everyone. Have you never heard of tough love? Plus was he putting people down, and yelling maliciously? without a purpose?
So when he confessed to SDM, you think it's him declaring he has won? In fact the epilogue of that episode, his constant avoidable of his feelings to SDM among other things shows that he didn't think so. If anything NDS is the one who is strutting around like a winner, when his fault are just as egregious or more so than HJP.
The scrunchy moment was not HJP's greatest moment, I will admit, but that one scene does not defeat a lifetime of great ones.
In contrast, you are perfectly fine at the immature, insecure, clingy, almost possessive nature of the ML?
Has anyone come across strong theories/analyses that point to a DoDal ending? I am interested in reading some…
NDS fans POV of why Dodal is end game doesn't make sense to me. Let's take a quick look at them and if they are valid at all.
Theory:
SDM and NDS need each other, they help each other grow.
I don't agree with this. Although they have both grown since episode 1, NDS growth has been solely thanks to SDM, while SDM growth has been a little bit because of NDS, but more because of HJP.
Also, SDM's life doesn't revolve around NDS. In her mind, NDS is just a part of her life, but he is not the most important thing, her ambition is.
To NDS, SDM is the only thing in his life, that is more important than his company, or his ambition.
Theory:
NDS really loves SDM and is genuine about his love.
Yes, this is true, but it's one sided. We see that SDM gets some comfort when he thought NDS is the fake Dosan, but we never see the same level of love from SDM to NDS. She cries about NDS in the bus stop, more because she feels betrayed, rather than she loves NDS that deeply.
I mean, when SDM could not get the CSR funding, rather than tell it to her lover/confidante, she hides it from everyone, including NDS. There is a disconnect to how they love for each other.
Theory:
NDS saves SDM every time she is in trouble
Although, NDS does defend her honor twice. It's questionable if SDM really needed to be saved? In her meeting with morning group, she had already been advised by HJP to record the conversation. If NDS had not broken the glass, she may have gotten more incriminating evidence.
And when NDS came to "save" her from WIJ, she really didn't need to be saved. These two scenes only serve to make her an weak damsel in distress, that SDM is not.
I think in the remaining episodes, it would really be nice if we can get these flashbacks.
1. SDM dad and dalmi talking a little bit about the letters, where SDM dad ask dalmi, what he likes about fake Dosan. And these descriptions matching the adult HJP.
2. A quick montage flashback of young HJP writing the letters alone, and smiling while writing them.
3. Grandma crying of why HJP didn't tell her she loved SDM earlier, and how she blames herself for not seeing the signs earlier.
Some predictions for the upcoming episodes:
1. Pretty sure the San brothers will NOT tell dalmi about HJP being the plan B.
2. WIJ's company will win the contest for being global partners with 2STO.
"yeah NDS will most likely get SDM, and I know that will make you sad."
"yeah NDS will most likely get SDM, and I can't wait to see you cry."
If you don't see the difference, I don't think I can make it any clearer.
I mean you can even insert a little bit of nightingale effect there, where NDS falls in love with his savior.
And think about it, how many scenes does NDS have with his real parents, where he treats them like his parents? Compare that to scenes where he treats SDM like his mother, and HJP like his father who he hates?
The main thing I am pointing out here, is that NDS love for SDM is neither real, nor is it healthy.
If anything, modern relationships have moved away from the toxic-stalkers like relationships.
Back in the day, when a man goes to any length to find out a girls phone number or address even, it was normalize, even considered romantic
These days, when a guy you don't know starts stalking you on social media, girls don't find it attractive anymore.
Young SDM even tells her dad in episode 1. The dad asks, why don't you just meet your pen pal, and young SDM replies, it's because nowadays, if a guy suddenly shows up and introduces himself, people will call him a stalker.
So gloating that the other person is going to cry soon, is something nice people do? And this is not a personal attack? Ok, if you say so.
I'm not bothered or offended btw, just pointing the hypocrisy of your post.
I think your misconstrued HJP intention here.
He may have said it initially, but he rectified his mistake right away. Even if it hurts his chances.
Why would he need to be tactful? there is no love lost between NDS and HJP, he owed NDS nothing in fact.
Hahaha, you don't want people to personally attack/gloat at you, yet you love doing it to other people. Hypocrite much?
Nam Do San suffers from what people in the field called Oedipus Complex. I will save you the time of googling it and give a brief description. According to Wikepedia, Oedipus complex refers to a child's unconscious sexual desire for the opposite-sex parent and hatred for the same-sex parent.
How does it relate to Start Up? NDS sees HJP as his same sex parent, while he sees SDM as his opposite sex parents. Let me further explain this.
You see when Grandma and HJP started writing the letters, they used the name of a real life NDS, and NDS’s backstory of being the youngest math Olympiad winner. We later find out, that although there really is a NDS in real life, his history was actually a fake, based on a lie.
In fact NDS himself calls himself a fraud to his parents, and has been lying to his real parents for the last 15 years (maybe even longer). So you see the NDS super-ego never matures, never manifest properly due to the lie he perpetuates towards his parents. And since he never feels support from his parents, and feels victimized by his father’s harsh standards, his super-ego does not latches on this parents. Which is why the mom had to ask, why not tell her first when his son is in trouble. The child – parent dynamic is missing here. The NDS that we see living in his father’s home, is in fact in itself a fake NDS, who has not formed proper parent-child attachments.
We see evidence of this, as throughout the show, we don’t see many significant parents-child interactions between NDS and his parents. The home, which is normally seen as a bastion of comfort for a child, is regularly seen as NDS, just as somewhere for him to sleep, and in one case, it even becomes a terrifying place for him to visit.
What does NDS super-ego do then? It proceeds to latch on to the first person who is nice to him, SDM. And to complete the complex, it latches on to the HJP, as the same sex parent that he despises.
Once the super ego latches on to these two pseudo parent, then the real NDS Is able to come out. He no longer has to pretend with HJP and SDM that he is this genius level math Olympiad winner, the real NDS is able to come out. And now begins the observation of the Oedipus Complex of one Nam Do San.
From this point on, I will be replacing HJP with “Father”, SDM with “Mother”, and NDS with “Son”.
The son has always favored the mother, as she has always been supportive of him, and has a faith in the son, that only a mother can have. So even though the son has not proven anything yet, the mother always has faith that the son can achieve great things. The father you see, is more pragmatic, he only believes in what he can see or touch. And thus his parenting style of tough love is not accepted as warmly by the son. For this reason the son despises his father, because he feels no matter how well he does, it will never measure up.
The mother is the son’s confidante, he tells her his dreams, and his insecurities, as most mother-son relationships should be. Her warm support, and blind faith, is very helpful in boosting the son’s confidence. While the father does, not want to sugar coat realities. His stern advices falls on deaf ears, as the son has gotten used to sugar filled praises the mom heaps on him.
As the nuclear family started to deteriorate, the son clings more and more tightly to the mother, wanting to spend almost all his time with her, even wanting to work in the same company as her, and starting to become very jealous whenever the mother and father would be spending time together. Because in the son’s mind, he is the child, and the mom’s world should only revolve around him.
Although the father had been taking care of his family, the son never sees this. To make an analogy, this would be like the father figure, making money to put food in the table, while the mom is the one who cooks the actual meal, and the son only saying thank you to the mom for the food, because he never sees, or never acknowledges what the father has done for the family. This is what happens in the midst of our story.
Has things always been like this? No, there was a time when the son looked up the father. But when the father asked the son to keep a white lie from the mother, the eventual guilt of the son for lying to his beloved mother eventually made him despise his father. Because in his mind, the father claims to love the mother, but continuous to lie to the mother. The sons relationship with the father quickly deteriorates, and he starts to view the father as an enemy, and his overprotectiveness of his mother reaches dangerous levels.
The son at this point has become overly possessive/protective of his mother. As he will physically challenge, stand up, and pick a fight, with whoever he feels is disrespecting his mother, which includes his father.
What once started as innocent parent-child love, slowly morphed into a more romantic love between mother and son, which culminated in a kiss (this is textbook Oedipus Complex). The son then proceeds to taunt the father on how the mother loves him, the son, more than the father.
Things come to a head when the mother finds out the father and the son had been lying to her, and she distances herself from her family.
The father, understandably knows his mistakes, and tries to make amends with the mother, and gives her space. But the son, feeling innocent in all of this, is unable to let go of his Oedipus Complex for the mother, and starts clinging even more tightly to her, even following her around wherever she goes, like a child who has lost his mother.
The son then proceeds to tell his mother, we don’t need father, we can be a family, just you and me. He also heaps praise to the mother telling her that she is the sole parent responsible for making him the great man he is.
The father, feeling guilty for his role in all of this, wants to make amends, and be supportive of the mother. But the son will not allow it, his Oedipus Complex has reached dangerous levels, and he doesn’t want the father in the mother’s life at all. He wants the mother to only see him.
And thus we are presented with the dangers of the Oedipus Complex, where the son sees himself as his own father, who is married to his mother.
Any psychology major would like to weigh in on this?
And when NDS bragged that the present will outshine the 15 year history, this isn't bragging, and rubbing it in HJP's face? Or are we forgiving NDS because he's soooo handsome?
"He could have sent his questions to Dal Mi by email and called her to discuss them. But he really wanted Do San to take dictation of them from him and know how much he Ji Pyeong cares for her. He said to Do San he confessed to her and that he won't lend him his car or his past anymore. You imagine? His past? Like the reason Do San was with Dal Mi was because he used the past of Ji Pyeong? That fucker said himself in his past he and Grandmother made up the fake letters and the fake NDS and he is ashamed of it. And now he says he lent this past to Do San so he can be with Dal Mi?"
So, you'd rather he leave a voice message or post-it? As much as HJP dislikes NDS, and he admits it, he still manages to tell SDM the truth of what happened, without bias. While NDS doesn't do nothing lol, he allows his hate of HJP to make him do illogical decisions.
"This tells how much of an asshole Ji Pyeong is. Any guy in the world shocked and pissed off like Do Dan was, seeing a pile of shit like Ji Pyeong coming to tell all this to his face regarding his (Do Dan's) girlfriend would have punched this clown on the face."
SDM and NDS have already broken up at this point. HJP was in the right to approach SDM after they had broken up. If HJP had approached SDM while NDS and SDM were still a couple, you would have a point.
"Do San looked so detached and did not even cared about Ji Pyeong's BS because he was too saddened by the situation. I hope he will recover from this soon and quickly mend his relationship with Dal Mi. That fucker Ji Pyeong can see it and bleed. Lol."
Well, NDS is kind of a man child whiner, so i'm not surprised at all he's in full mope mode. But instead of seeking comfort from his actual mom, he seeks comfort from his ex-gf/pseudo mom. It's creepy actually how NDS leans on SDM so much, like a child does with his mom. I guess NDS has mom issues.
"Good guys finish last"
"No good deed goes unpunished"
or
"Good things come to those who wait"
"Good things happen to good people"
Putting people down, yelling at everyone. Have you never heard of tough love? Plus was he putting people down, and yelling maliciously? without a purpose?
So when he confessed to SDM, you think it's him declaring he has won? In fact the epilogue of that episode, his constant avoidable of his feelings to SDM among other things shows that he didn't think so. If anything NDS is the one who is strutting around like a winner, when his fault are just as egregious or more so than HJP.
The scrunchy moment was not HJP's greatest moment, I will admit, but that one scene does not defeat a lifetime of great ones.
In contrast, you are perfectly fine at the immature, insecure, clingy, almost possessive nature of the ML?
I'd like to live in that world also :)
Theory:
SDM and NDS need each other, they help each other grow.
I don't agree with this. Although they have both grown since episode 1, NDS growth has been solely thanks to SDM, while SDM growth has been a little bit because of NDS, but more because of HJP.
Also, SDM's life doesn't revolve around NDS. In her mind, NDS is just a part of her life, but he is not the most important thing, her ambition is.
To NDS, SDM is the only thing in his life, that is more important than his company, or his ambition.
Theory:
NDS really loves SDM and is genuine about his love.
Yes, this is true, but it's one sided. We see that SDM gets some comfort when he thought NDS is the fake Dosan, but we never see the same level of love from SDM to NDS. She cries about NDS in the bus stop, more because she feels betrayed, rather than she loves NDS that deeply.
I mean, when SDM could not get the CSR funding, rather than tell it to her lover/confidante, she hides it from everyone, including NDS. There is a disconnect to how they love for each other.
Theory:
NDS saves SDM every time she is in trouble
Although, NDS does defend her honor twice. It's questionable if SDM really needed to be saved? In her meeting with morning group, she had already been advised by HJP to record the conversation. If NDS had not broken the glass, she may have gotten more incriminating evidence.
And when NDS came to "save" her from WIJ, she really didn't need to be saved. These two scenes only serve to make her an weak damsel in distress, that SDM is not.
1. SDM dad and dalmi talking a little bit about the letters, where SDM dad ask dalmi, what he likes about fake Dosan. And these descriptions matching the adult HJP.
2. A quick montage flashback of young HJP writing the letters alone, and smiling while writing them.
3. Grandma crying of why HJP didn't tell her she loved SDM earlier, and how she blames herself for not seeing the signs earlier.
Some predictions for the upcoming episodes:
1. Pretty sure the San brothers will NOT tell dalmi about HJP being the plan B.
2. WIJ's company will win the contest for being global partners with 2STO.
3. HJP guilt at Yong San will make him avoid SDM.
But sometimes as readers/viewers, we see symbolism the writer never meant to put, or the writer places symbolism that has no further meaning.
I hope i'm wrong and your right that these symbolism will amount to some hidden twist!
and make it more plausible.
I just write my wild theories, crazy stories and satire whenever it comes to my mind LOL >.<