gofornikki

I wasn't discrediting the chemistry that Billy and Seng had, I enjoyed them in their projects. The point was more toward the idea that if they were still in their active coupling, we would have never gotten the scenes we have now between Billy and Babe. No shade on any of the actors, more a critique on the nature of Thai BL marketing.

This show to me is the biggest testament to the idea that Thai BL actors should be allowed to split off and not remain in the same coupling forever. Just imagine if 'BillySeng' was still a thing, we would have never gotten to see this incredible chemistry between Billy and Babe.

I get why they do it, and it's all a marketing ploy, but it breeds the most disturbingly obsessed fans, not to mention sameness is the death knell of creativity.

I just wish we could get these occasional change ups without some dramatic decoupling, or one of the actors leaving the industry altogether. It should be a completely normal thing for actors to change acting partners. And if only that was more normalized, we would get to see so many more amazing chemistry match ups.

Anyways, loving this show. I don't know why this is what I was thinking about, but for some reason it was.

All the show needed to do to make this work is to have Charlie actually SAY any of this. All we're given on the show is that Charlie lied to Babe and secretly stole his power without his knowledge or consent. It doesn't matter if he had good intentions, it was still a lie and a betrayal. And when he had the opportunity to fully come clean and explain his intentions, we don't get any of that. We don't get an explanation of trying to keep Babe safe. We don't even get so much as contrition from Charlie. Instead we get a half assed and manipulative promise to kill himself to give Babe his powers back. And then Babe just forgives him. The end. No further understanding of Charlie's character. No emotional growth between Charlie and Babe. Just a hop and a skip to a car sex scene as if nothing ever happened.

I have the exact same feeling as you, and I kept trying to figure out what was causing that disconnect. The conclusion I've come to is that there is no emotional weight to anything between Charlie and Babe. And the moment they finally might give them something with even a little bit of depth to it, they casually drop it and move along. So everything between the two of them feels empty and vapid.

The show, inversely has gone to great lengths to provide the context of the emotional weight between Way and Babe. You feel the tension and you believe the stakes of their situation.

The parallel I came to was this, which we'll have to wait and see if it turns out to be true:

Eventually there will be a scene where Babe confronts Way after learning that he's been emotionally manipulating him for years. Just a hunch, but I imagine that scene will feel far more narratively important and emotionally devastating than the scene we just witnessed between Charlie and Babe. Why? Because it will actually feel like the stakes of that argument will matter to the overall story, whereas it feels like nothing between Babe and Charlie ever matters to the overall story.

Every Babe and Charlie scene consists of exactly three things: either they are using these two characters to info dump and give more context to Tony's motivations or they're having a completely frivolous and boring conversation that reveals nothing about who either character is or they're having sex. That's it. That's the only emotional depth you're getting out of this pairing.

It's like the writers saw genuine intriguing natural tension and declared, "Not in my show!" If it's not stilted or narratively incoherent, they're not interested. Pavel and Pooh only exists to take their clothes off once an episode. I honestly think that's what these writers think. Because any time the show even comes close to having an honest or raw, character developing or harrowing scene with these two, all the tension is removed immediately and they're back to making kissy faces and talking about nonsense. Why is the main couple of this show not the emotional heart of the show? That's what's not working for me. If Babe and Charlie are your lead couple, all of the emotional energy and drama of the series should be coming from them. But it's not. The show has put more emotional weight behind the one sided relationship between Babe and Way than they have in their main couple. That's why I'm almost certain the inevitable scene we get when Babe realizes Way has been manipulating his emotions is going to be ten times more impactful and emotionally harrowing than these scenes today between Babe and Charlie. And that's just proof to me that the show is not focused, and it's certainly not focused on Babe and Charlie.

I was hoping getting more of Charlie's backstory would retroactively help make the main couple make more sense, but it didn't do any of that. Charlie and Babe still have the same hollow chemistry to me that has been built off of absolutely nothing. Charlie showed up, and they fell in love because the plot demanded. That's it. We're not going to get anything deeper or more compelling than that, and I guess I just have to accept that.

These writers are truly skilled at draining any natural intrigue, tension and momentum out of a situation. They are so good at the build up. I often find myself on the edge of my seat watching this show, wondering what's going to happen next. But the resolution is always a disappointment. For the first time, there was compelling tension and emotional stakes between Babe and Charlie. Do we let it play out in a natural way to build both tension and develop the two main characters and make their relationship stronger on the other side of it? Of course not. It's resolved after one half assed conversation with minimal emotional input, certainly on Charlie's side. He never once seems even halfway sorry for lying, manipulating and betraying Babe, which is fine because Babe will just fold over like a lawn chair and forgive him anyways, so who cares? Who needs emotional tension? Who needs character development? Just throw them into an NC scene immediately after their big 'argument' because that's all these characters are good for. That's what these writers are telling me with the way they write this show. You don't need to care about these characters or their emotional journey, just watch them be hot with each other. If they think that all they need to do to write a compelling BL story is throw two hot people together in a scene, at least for me, they missed the mark completely.

Babe and Way need to stop pretending that the toxic codependency they have with each other is even kind of friendship. I'd love for Way to move on. I feel bad that the show seems to relish in making this character as pitifully pathetic as possible. The show can't decide what it's trying to tell me about Way and Babe. By the way they write Way to constantly be humiliated and left to simp by himself, it seems like they want the audience to find Way pathetic. Certainly we're supposed to be on Babe and Charlie's side, and find Way an irritating road block to their happiness. But if that's what the writers want us to feel, why do they go out of their way to play this soft, sad, romantic music whenever Babe and Way share scenes? Is Way the tragic second lead, or is he the manipulative relationship interloper? Make up your mind show.

I love the side couples of this show, but I'm beginning to realize that we're only going to get the tiniest crumbs of Alan/Jeff and Way/Pete every other episode. I think if you combined all of the total scenes of both couples, it wouldn't even total to thirty minutes over the last seven episodes, so I don't have any high hopes that we will get satisfying, fleshed out love stories for them either.

This show is such an anomaly. Somehow they always leave me in a place where I can't wait to watch the next episode. I go into every episode hyped up, and then always find myself falling into disappointment as the episode continues. I'm always right on the precipice of quitting the show, but then something crazy will happen toward the end, and I'm like- damn it now I need to know what happens next. This show is like an addiction. And not necessarily the good kind.

I'm here, I'm just so tired. I really thought learning more about Charlie would make the main couple make more sense, but it really didn't help with anything. Their 'love story' is just as hollow and empty to me as it's always been, and any place this show could mine actual compelling drama, they instead decide to sidestep it completely. Babe forgiving Charlie in .05 seconds is ridiculous. He acts as if he just found out that Charlie was the president of his secret fan club, not that someone he had grown to love and trust actively slept with him for the sole purpose of stealing his powers. I mean, hello? A little outrage? Any time the writing even comes close to being compelling, they find a way to completely drain the momentum from the scene, it's astonishing, really. They also kept a little bit more of the omegaverse cringe factory than I was expecting, so I can't lie, whenever they delve into those elements, I get a little bit of the ick. That's my own fault though, it's not like I didn't know this was an Omegaverse story. I just get blindsided whenever they start randomly talking about babies for no reason. The show goes out of its way to make poor Way look embarrassingly pitiful- and I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop and for the writers to make a full heel turn with his character. I'm sure it will happen, and like with everything else in this show, I fear that it will not make any narrative sense.

Oh my God, I forgot to mention that mess. I think my brain has protectively cleansed it from my mind. If the show knows they're not going to do the whole MPREG mess from the novels, then why even have this conversation in the show? It was so needlessly cringe inducing.

That was actually a really good episode.

First off, I like the way they handled the race. I was prepared to roll my eyes, expecting these lazy writers to just have Charlie win to prove some kind of point. But I'm glad they didn't do that. Charlie joining the team because of Alan and not because of Babe was a nice surprise too. Because in my opinion Alan kept him on, not just because he saw potential in his racing, which I believe he did- but also because he obviously wants to keep Charlie around as a means to get closer to Jeff. Both of these things make perfect sense. And at least someone else besides Way is voicing some suspicion about Charlie- even though it's obvious Dean's ass is just bitter that he lost.

I wish we could have had any kind of reasonable progression to where Babe and Charlie have developed in their relationship, but we didn't. So fine, if I get temporary amnesia and forget that there was absolutely nothing in the five episodes prior to explain or make me believe that Babe and Charlie's relationship has developed to the dropping "L" bombs and calling each other boyfriend stage- I actually didn't mind them in this episode. They're still my least favorite part about the show, but they were far less annoying here. And it looks like next episode we're finally going to get the truth about Charlie, so who knows. Maybe we've finally reached a turning point with this couple.

Loved getting more Alan and Jeff scenes. They're cute, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend they don't suffer from the same writing problems that Babe and Charlie do. The only reason it doesn't bother me as much with them is because they are a secondary couple and we barely see them. And at the very least, they aren't going from strangers in one episode to instantly in love with each other by the next. It is clear that Alan is down bad for Jeff, we'll just have to wait and see if Jeff will ever lower his icy walls and let him in.

Oof, poor Way. The entire last part of this episode was an emotional rollercoaster. As much as people love to call out Way for manipulating Babe, Babe knowing full well that his best friend was in love with him the entirety of their friendship and purposefully never addressing it because he wanted Way to stay by his side as his friend is pretty damn manipulative and toxic itself. I would like to hope the symbolic throwing of the necklace was a sign that Way is finally ready to start letting go of Babe. But the preview for next episode gives me the indication that he's probably not there yet.

Looking forward to next week. Looks like the shit is starting to go down for real.

A lot of this is coming from the first couple of episodes in which there were clear scenes where Charlie would start acting cute whenever Babe was around, and then drop into a stoic expression as soon as he walked away. This wasn't Charlie acting differently when different people were around. This was the show going out of its way to show Charlie dropping his cute act whenever he was alone in an a poor attempt to make him more mysterious. The writers wanted the audience to be questioning Charlie's intentions at first, but by framing it the way they did, they made Charlie a completely unreadable character. I wish they wouldn't have shown those scenes at all if this was Charlie's real personality the entire time, because all it did was confuse the audience.

I love the reference. And Stay with Me had every excuse to cut out all of the BL elements, due to China's ban on homosexual content. They rose above their circumstances to tell a compelling and believable love story as much as they were able to do. The writers of this show have no excuse. No one is limiting their ability to write a compelling BL storyline. They just seem completely uninterested in the subject.

What's frustrating is that it's easy to remedy. If the other characters found them to be as suspicious as the audience does, I would take a lot less issue with it. But it feels like the writers are trying to gaslight the audience into think the problem is actually Way because he's mistrusting, and that just makes me question if everyone else is seeing the same show I'm seeing. Way being doubtful of complete strangers during a tumultuous time for the team makes complete sense. The rest of the team shrugging their shoulders and just embracing Jeff and Charlie without question makes no sense. And no gaslight edit that the show attempts is going to make me think otherwise. The writers seem completely uninterested in explaining these characters motivations or intentions and at this point, it's completely baffling. They're small changes that would go a long way to bridge the gap of making this story more coherent.

You're not wrong, but for me there are slight differences in the nuances of the story. First of all, we know that Way is in love with Babe based off of his actions and responses to things, and the script goes out of its way to explain that this has been the case for a long time. We actually don't know that Charlie is truly in love with Babe because his character has been completely shrouded in mystery. For all we know, he is just faking his attraction to Babe for some nefarious reason. Of course, we assume that this is not the case, but that's not because of the way it's written, that's just an assumption based off of him being the main character. The reason why Way's love for Babe feels more concrete, is because the show actually gives us the context to his feelings. We've seen him in the past, and we know that he has a long history with Babe. These are little things, but they do help to paint a stronger narrative. In contrast, the show has given us nothing about Charlie. Not even little nuances. He plays an affected 'cute' character that he falls in and out of, and then suddenly he stops and we're just supposed to accept that this is the person he's always been. But if that's the case, why write the affectation to begin with? Why not just have him be a cute character? The way the show has been written makes it impossible to even navigate how Charlie really feels about anything because the show can't decide who Charlie actually is, and doesn't seem all that interested in actually telling us.

Way being mysterious is fine because he is a secondary character that we spend very little time with. The audience having no clue who the main character of the series is, is a much deeper problem with the writing.

At the end of the day, everyone is free to like whatever character they like. If Charlie as he is written works for you, that's completely valid. If Way they way he is written doesn't work for you, that's also completely valid. We're all entitled to our opinions.

At the end of the day, this is just my own opinion, and you have yours and that's cool.

You're not wrong and your opinion is completely valid. What's missing is good writing. Unless they're using it to infodump about Babe's traumatic past, every Babe/Charlie scene has felt frivolous and unnecessary to the plot. I think that's what's causing the dissonance. If you can completely remove the romantic scenes of the main couple in a BL series and the plot still makes total sense- you've failed as a writer. Their relationship should feel integral to the plot- they should feel like the most important part of the story and they just...don't.

Haven't seen it recommended yet, but based on your previous watch list, I would suggest Kiseki: Dear to Me. The plot gets a little iffy in places, but the chemistry between both the main couple and the secondary couple are incredible and make the series well worth it. It's got action, drama and romance, so you'll never be bored.

The writers definitely don't seem like they're into writing a compelling BL storyline. Charlie and Babe feel so unnecessary in a show that's supposed to be about them and that all comes down to the writers' lack of interest in that aspect of the story to me. That's probably why they cut out all the spicier bits too. We know they have spicier takes based on some of the behind the scenes footage, but for some reason, they continuously go for the tamest version of a scene possible, and it all reeks of - we don't really want to be writing a BL.

Yes, we are few but fervent.

I agree. I'm getting a little tired of constantly feeling like I have to defend myself and my position as a critical watcher. If you're someone who can just switch your brain off and mindlessly enjoy entertainment, tuning out the dissonant parts of the story that don't make sense- that's great for you. And I'm glad you're able to enjoy the show in that way. But some people can't just switch their brains off. I go into everything I watch with a critical eye, because that's just how I am as a person. I'm a writer, and I view media in that context. I shouldn't have to apologize for how I choose to consume the television I enjoy. I joined this board because I thought it would be a place where I could enjoy discussing the technical aspects of the show with other people who are watching it and enjoying it as well. I enjoy deconstruction and analysis, theory and prediction. It's all part of the fun of watching something for me. It's fun to go back and forth and to try to bridge the gap of what's not working and why. I like being able to communicate with other people on the subject, because no one I know in real life is interested in the same content as me. This is the only sounding board and outlet for my love of this genre that I have. So to come here looking for a little bit of a community that share my interests, only to be labelled as a bitter hate watcher is a little disappointing.

I agree with a lot of what you were saying. First off, Pooh is not the problem. Charlie is a poorly written character, and I will stand by that. I can't wait to watch Pooh in the future, because I suspect that he's much better than this show is allowing him to portray.

Mainly I agree with your point that the writers seem embarrassed by the Omegaverse aspects of the story. Actually, I'd go a step further to say that it feels like the writers are embarrassed about writing for BL wholesale. I've theorized that this is why the chemistry of the main couple can sometimes feel off, and why the secondary couples are moving at a glacial pace- because to me, the writers are focusing as little on that aspect of the story as they can while still being able to call this a BL.

It comes across in the writing to me that the writers have no respect for the medium they are representing and they have no interest in writing it. They wanted to write a racing ensemble story and a mystery thriller- and some of those parts of the story work because they care about them. I just wish they gave an equal amount of space and good writing to the BL scenes, but I'm starting to doubt if we will ever get to that point with this show.

I of course can't speak for everyone on these boards who have been a little more critical of the series, but I will speak for myself.

I have been consistent in only critiquing places where I felt like the writers failed to convey what they were trying to get across, or purposefully didn't develop necessary scenes to make the plot within the universe they themselves created work or make sense. I am not expecting "realism" in a sense of real life outside, but I do expect a narrative that follows its own rules without skipping over necessary plot points or making the supposed main characters of a series feel sidelined because they've gotten swallowed in the overall plot- which it seems is what the writers are more interested in writing about. I don't hate the character of Charlie. I feel like the writers of the show have failed to make the character compelling, and there is a difference in that.

I've also been vocal about the parts of the show that I enjoy. Because the parts of the show, where I get a sense the writers are enjoying what they are writing- such as the racing elements or the whole Tony sublot, and Babe's backstory, those parts of the series work for me. Because to me, the writers actually care about those scenes.

It's just my opinion, and you're entitled to yours as well. But I do think that critiquing areas of the show where you feel like the writing could be better does fall under the umbrella of analysis. I don't hate the show. I actually like the show very much, so much that when it falls short of my love for it, I like to examine why.

I'm a writer. I view things through the lens of a writer. So when I watch a series, I watch it with questions such as, why isn't this working for me, narratively? What could they have done to improve this or make it make more sense? Why does this scene work, but this other one falls flat for me? If you enjoy every element of the series, that's great. I'm very glad that you're able to enjoy the show in that way. But switching my brain off and just watching passively, just isn't how I consume media.

There's nothing wrong with the way you watch this show. But there's nothing wrong with the way I watch this show either, and I guess that's all I wanted to say.