gofornikki

This episode made me want to pull my hair out less than the last episode, so I guess I'll take that as a win. Glad we're finally getting some forward momentum on the glacial pacing of some of these side couples. Was the writing still absolutely groan worthy in places, really reaching to make ends meet even when they make no sense? Yes. And I have a feeling I'm just going to have to accept that this show is not going to pace and flesh out the characters in the way I wish they would. At the very least, I was never bored throughout episode 5. I'm very intrigued by Pete's character, and I'm ready to delve more into his backstory and the eventual backstory of all of the characters that have suffered at Tony's hands. That's where the interest of this show lies for me, in the everything else. I've kind of just accepted that I'll be watching this show a little bit around Babe/Charlie. But there's plenty there to keep me intrigued. In fact, I'd say my biggest gripe is that I still feel like Babe/Charlie aren't central enough to the plot. I really think if you removed all of their scenes together, the plot of the show would still make complete sense and that should just not be the case when you're talking about the main couple of your show.

This is what I've been saying as well! I thought that's what we were getting, when the show introduced that Charlie might be shady in the first episode. I actually got excited. Finally, a show where the main lead wasn't just a hapless ditzy damsel in distress. A complex tug of war between betrayal, lust and romance? What could be sexier than that? I really thought that's where this show was going.

But it's clear by this point, that no. No, that is not where this show is going at all. Charlie is not interesting. He's not conflicted in any kind of compelling way. We probably will discover that psych, the irritating cutesy persona was really him all along. Isn't that totally worth wasting five to six episodes of our run on a -is he or isn't he a traitor- storyline?

I think the problem is that the show, while changing absolutely everything about the novels is for some reason trying to write Charlie and Babe exactly like they are in the novels. And you can't do both. Just based on the blips I've gotten from the heathens who just drop spoilers like the bored little troll monsters that they are, the novels seem....really bad. Like incredibly horribly written and full of god awful Omegaverse cliches.

I almost wish they just did an original show with these actors, because they have no interest in actual telling the story of Pit Babe, and the couple of Babe and Charlie doesn't work outside of that story.

I want to have second couple syndrome. But I'm actually starting to fear that none of these couples are going to be well written or given any room to develop. I've said this elsewhere on here, but it really feels like the writers love everything about this story except the BL elements, because it sure feels like they're going out of their way to strip this show of any romance it could possibly have.

The mistake I feel like the show made with the character of Charlie is not revealing enough of his true personality to the audience. I understand that they were trying to keep him cryptic, because they wanted the audience to question whether or not he was truly a good or bad guy. That on it's face could have worked, but the show refuses to commit to this. In one moment, they have Charlie completely play up the cutesy persona around Babe and then drop into a stoic expression, indicating that he's putting up a front and being shady. But then the next moment, they have him being a sulky, sad confused boy who feels hurt and wronged by Babe pushing him away. And it's clear that these scenes have been written to try to make the audience sympathize with Charlie's character, because he behaves this way, even when he's alone and not around Babe. Either of these two personas would have been fine if they would have chosen one and committed to it, the problem is they're trying to do both at once, and it doesn't work, at least not for me. So what we're left with is a character who we know is putting up a persona, so we have no idea what his true personality is, but the show still expects us to root for him as a protagonist even though we have no idea who he really is. They want me to care about Charlie, about what happens with his relationship with Babe, but they've failed to give me a reason to care. I don't even know if he actually likes Babe. I don't even know if he actually likes racing. I don't know if anything he's presented himself as is honest or real. I think they could have fixed it by introducing the character from his own perspective. I think if we had met Charlie first and then followed him into his deception, it would have gone a long way to help us understand and sympathize with the character more. Or barring that, if they were really determined to carry out the intrigue - is he or isn't he a bad guy- part of the story. Then they should have commited to that wholesale. Charlie/Babe is weirdly written in that it's both way too fast and way too slow at the same time. I get that they have a limited number of episodes, but I feel like if they spent a little more time allowing Charlie to be devious and untrustworthy, to really push the audience to the edge of worry as to his characters motives, and then slowly start to break down the walls and have more romantic scenes where you see them begin to understand each other on a deeper level, it would be far more compelling. Instead we got this weird instalove, where they suddenly live together like an old married couple, and for some reason they just don't write them a lot of scenes that are written to be romantic. Most of their scenes together are either the show trying to infodump as much of the surrounding plot as they can through Babe's monologuing or they're completely superfluous scenes that tell us nothing about either character. For a couple that were supposed to start as fuckbuddies and then develop into a romance, they didn't even give us a lot of the initial sexy energy. It feels like the show is trying to write around the fact that it's a BL love story, instead of writing for it.

That of course, is just my opinion on it. I am so sorry, I did not mean to write an entire novel. I just have a lot of feelings about this show and it's potential, apparently.

I don't think anything in history could compete with the toxicity of the OF boards, lol. That was worse because you had competing fans of pre-existing actor couples going to war with each other. And you know some of those couple stans are crazy to the nth degree.

Luckily, I feel like this board has so far managed to keep most of the back and forth bickering to the show itself, and to the characters. The only person that I feel like is catching undeserved strays is Pooh. But the critique on this show has primarily remained mostly just with execution and writing of the series. At least from what I've seen, it hasn't descended into a petty one vs. one fan war yet.

I can't tell whether to be flattered or offended. lol.

He's insufferable in that fun kind of way where you can really enjoy when things don't work out for him.

I can't speak for everyone here, but as for myself.
1. I don't dislike the characters. In fact, I like 90% of the characters on this show. I even like the characters that are written to be insufferably obnoxious like Winner. The only character that doesn't work for me is Charlie, and that's only because of the way he's been written so far.
2. The cast is phenomenal. I don't have any acting complaints regarding this show so far.
3. The plot is actually the strongest thing about this series for me. The problem is that the plot actually has absolutely nothing to do with the main couple, and that's a fault of the writing.

We critique things because we love them, and we like to analyze how the things we love could be made even better. But nothing is perfect. It would be pretty boring on a site like this if everyone had the same opinions and outlooks about everything in a series. Nobody likes everything. It's just not human nature. And not everyone likes the SAME things. And that's why message boards like this are fun. Because we can playfully engage in a back and forth about what we like and dislike about a series. It's not that serious. It's a show at the end of the day. I bet even someone coming on here and screaming in all caps about how much they hate the series, and how much the characters all suck don't really find it that deep at the end of the day.

I've always stressed consistently that the character is badly written. Pooh can only act what he's given to play, and the writers aren't giving him anything to work with. I actually feel bad for Pooh, because I feel like he's getting blamed for the character being stilted, when that is the fault of the writers and not the actor.

This has been exactly my frustration for this series. And the saddest part is, that it's not like they're incapable of writing compelling characters. I don't know how, but they've managed to make Babe a compelling character with strong pathos. They've even managed to give strong pathos and intrigue to many of the supporting characters. But they refuse to give any sort of pathos or complexity to the character of Charlie. I really can't tell who is dropping the ball at this point, whether it's the writing or the acting or some combination of both. But they either need to distinctly separate who Charlie actually is from who he's pretending to be, or just make it clear that he's not pretending at all, and the way he's acting is completely who he actually is. Because this wishy washy back and forth is truly aggravating. And why are they making Charlie act all innocent and dumbfounded that there might be a reason that Babe would have doubts about him, when he KNOWS that he's keeping things from Babe? There's nothing I hate worse than a character that is written to never be in the wrong, even when the audience knows that they're not being straightforward or honest. It's classic main character syndrome at it's most irritating. I'd almost rather have had Charlie be a totally manipulative sociopath that was just using Babe. for some reason or another. At least that would be interesting. I almost had a moment where I thought they might have been going there- there was a split second where I thought- is Charlie purposefully playing up his injury to lure Babe back to him with sympathy? I would have LOVED that as a twist. But no. Charlie's not allowed to be interesting or complex, or anything apparently, except a blank slate that toggles between faux cutesiness and stoic nothingness. I need him to just explain his purpose for being there already, because it's the only thing at this point that I think can salvage this character for me.

I agree 100%. I Really hope the show goes into Charlie's motivations soon. I know it's intentional, but it's making the character really hard to invest in. Loving the show, though. The structure and writing surrounding the main couple is really my only complaint, and my hope is that those issues will go away once we learn the truth about Charlie.

My problem with the character of Charlie isn't that he's the dominant in their relationship. My problem with the character of Charlie is that the show can't make up their mind about whether he's actually a cutesy character or if he's just using that as a mask and hiding his true personality. Because we still have no idea who Charlie really is or what his true feelings for anything are, it's incredibly hard to relate to his character. I understand that they intentionally wanted to keep Charlie mysterious for the plot, but they needed to unveil at least something about his character that is true, for the audience to latch onto. Because right now, to me at least, Charlie is a blank slate of a character, so I can't take anything he's supposed to be "feeling" at face value until we actually learn what his actual motivations are.

Especially because the book spoilers are 95% irrelevant to the show, and just making people have weird assumptions about characters that make trying to have a discussion about the show and the show only practically impossible.

I agree completely. Any fault in the dynamics is down to the character writing, and I don't think there's an actor on the planet that could make Charlie's character work, the way they've written it for the show. I feel like Pooh is being scapegoated for the writers failing to do their job.

Actually, Dear Gangster Oppa is a great example. I dare someone to go watch some of the actors on that show and then come back here and say that Pooh is a terrible actor. He's not the best, but he's green, and that's to be expected. People need to give him a break.

I think it's the way Charlie's character is written. We have absolutely no idea what his actual personality is, which makes rooting for his character impossible. We know the cutesy act is just that, an act, because we've seen Charlie slip in and out of it. So people who say that Babe fell for Charlie's cute personality lose me because, if what Babe fell for was a fake persona, how can the audience be expected to root for that couple? And if that's supposed to be his true personality that we've seen the entire time, why have the clear scenes where he slips out of that persona and into a blank stoic expression? The show wants us to be suspicious of Charlie while also expecting us to root for him as a romantic protagonist, but the problem is they can't have it both ways.

I agree, and I think the writers really did a disservice to Pooh with the way Charlie's character is written. It was already going to be difficult for him, seeing as how this is his first ever starring role. But the way Charlie is written, I don't know how anyone could play those scenes and make it work. Charlie's actual personality is being purposefully shrouded, so all we have is a cutesy act, that the show goes out of its way to tell us is an act by having him slip in and out of it when Babe's not looking, and then a blank stoic stare. They wanted Charlie to be a mysterious character where even the audience is questioning his motives and intentions, but they aren't willing to commit to it completely, because they also want the audience to sympathize with his character when Babe starts to treat him coldly. And I just want the show to pick one. Is Charlie aloof and mysterious and a master of disguise, using the cover of your average cliché BL protagonist to get closer to Babe for his own secret reasons, or is he just your average cliché BL protagonist on its face? Pick one, show, and then maybe we can reconvene and try to resolve some of the stilted chemistry issues.

Sorry, meant to post to the main poster, accidentally responded to the response.

I can't speak for all of us, but for me personally I have no interest in seeing Way with Babe. I'd love for him to get his own separate storyline so we can see more of his character outside of just his feelings for Babe.

As for Charlie, I have consistently stated that I don't dislike his character. I am only frustrated by the way he's written, and the fact that we can't know if this is his real personality or if these are his real feelings. I think I'll like Babe/Charlie much more once all of their cards are on the table and we know for certain where both characters actually stand with each other.

I don't love the narrative that anyone who tries to look at a complex character like Way and maybe see something worth exploring in him automatically is a hater who despises Charlie/Babe or the character of Charlie. I'm not saying those people don't exist, but you can't paint everyone with the same brush.

Liking Way does not equal hating Charlie/Babe. That's all I'm saying.

And I think it's possible to criticize certain elements of the writing without being labeled as a hater.

Just my two cents. I enjoy that everyone has a bit of a different take on this show. It makes the discussion board fun for lively debate. I just don't want to see this discussion board descend into fan camps attacking back and forth. I'm fresh off the Only Friends boards. And that shit got exhausting, really quick.

If that's the intention that they are attempting to get across, then they are failing to write it that way. Because the way they framed the scenes in the third episode sure seemed to me like they were trying to elicit sympathy for the character of Charlie. The narrative, the way the show framed the situation, they chose to linger on those long shots of Charlie looking hurt and confused as to why Babe was pushing him away. Those scenes didn't read to me like Charlie was a character that they are leaving purposefully ambiguous to the audience. That was obvious in the way fans of the pairing reacted to the episode. Their guttural reaction was to be upset with Way's character for interfering with Charlie & Babe. In fact, almost everyone seemed to universally forget that Charlie was an ambiguous character at all. Why? Because, at least in that episode, they randomly stopped writing him that way. It's almost like they can't decide which direction to fully commit to. One moment they will clearly show his dual persona, they'll show him drop in and out of his affected character when he is and isn't around Babe, and then the next they'll pretend like the fake persona is actually who Charlie is, and there's no question to be had about his motives. It's like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too to please everyone, but in the end it'll end up pleasing even less people. Everyone interprets things differently, so it's really a choose your own adventure. I can only speak for my own perspective. For me, personally. The writing for Charlie's character has been incredibly inconsistent, and it's made the character hard to care about, or even be intrigued by.

I actually agree that I feel like Pooh is getting a lot of unfair flack. To me the issues with Charlie's character are all due to the writing and are not the actor's fault. I want to reserve judgement to see if the issues I have with the character and with the pairing are relieved once we learn Charlie's true motives. I think once we get a better picture of who Charlie really is as a character, it will clear up a lot of the issues, that at the very least I have about the character. I can't speak for others, but that's my personal take on it.

I agree that this is what they were going for. For me personally, however. It doesn't work. There are ways to make a story full of mystery and intrigue work, but when you immediately throw a couple at us that we are expected to care about and root for, but we have absolutely no character insight into one half of the couple, no idea who they really are or what they want, it kind of makes investing in that relationship incredibly difficult. At least, that's how I feel from my perspective. I feel that a lot of people are having some trouble relating to Charlie's character, and I feel like the actor who plays him is getting a lot of unfair flack for the character, when I think the failure is at a narrative level and not the actor's fault. I just hope they get to Charlie's motives soon, because I feel like once that narrative block is removed, it may improve some of the disconnect some people have been feeling with the Babe/Charlie pairing.