solipsism5

It would not be hard to moderate this violent rivalry. They've already been doing it since episode 4-5, and I believe P'Aof is too good a director to let this get too out of control, causing a total lack of focus in the series, like to the point where we can't even pay attention to the love between Pran and Pat.

I thought the beach scene was just magnificent this episode. The music for that scene was just so fitting, emulating the waves rolling back and forth. The fantastic thing about this whole scene was how idyllic it was and such a wonderful contrast to the storm-like scenes it was sandwiched between. Pat and Pran were just free to be each other and you can see what a relief it is for both them as well as the audience who also feel the hatred of the rival University groups and the semi-evil parents. The scenes with the kid and Pa were also touching moments where you can see the relationship building, though quietly, because Pran is fighting it so hard. The wonderful, endless persistence of Pat, and his remarkable fortitude to get to Pran despite every obstacle this episode is what I really love about his character, like a person fighting to the death for a consuming love. Where Pran doesn't have the strength to fight at all for what he really wants he will always protect Pat from danger, going so far as to manufacture a silly love confession to prevent his friends from attacking Pat. It's still true that both Pat and Pran do everything to look out for each other, even if Pran is still not able to give in to his romantic sentiments.

I really dislike Pran's friends this episode. Their behavior is just psychotic. You have to wonder what they would have done to Pat if Pran hadn't tricked them. They were, first of all, acting very cowardly by attempting to attack Pat when he had no one else to back him up. If they all had attacked him who knows how awful the situation would have turned out - they could have caused some irreparable physical trauma. In these kind of situations people just egg each other on, and the damage would have been pretty severe. What led them to act like this? Just Pat joining an event that they decided the Engineers shouldn't be allowed to attend - a volunteer activity. How crazy is that? These people should all be expelled. Wai was the worst in this and if everyone thought Korn was terrible before, this is even more extreme. I even feel Korn wouldn't be so cowardly as to gang up on one person like Wai was encouraging everyone to do. Honestly, this situation had no place in this show. I hate to say that, but this was a strange choice. Wai was just relentless in this episode to the point he had the aspect of someone that was mentally deranged.

The problem with this to me is that this series takes such a casual and negligent attitude toward bullying that is really unacceptable. As someone who really loves this show I hope they drop this violent rivalry in this series. They should make these two groups reconcile or this stuff will get too out of hand and sink the whole show, or cause it to be seriously downgraded. I would hate to see that because this is just such a remarkable drama with some of the most incredible character building, and some of the most honest and compelling romance of any BL out there.

It's inspired me to rewatch the Korean version. That movie and this drama are not in the same universe. How could they have messed this up so badly? I'm going to keep watching this for Lee Thanat so I can do a more thorough analysis of his lips and hairdo, along with those beautiful eyes. Pluem is also looking pretty hot in this- he looks much better on here than in Friend Zone.

So far, this has to be one of the worst BL's I've ever watched. It's amazing how many times they replayed the same scene over and over again. The only positive was that we got to see all three leads kissing and since they're all very attractive this was the only redeeming quality of this whole series. Did anyone care about the Penelope side story? I couldn't care less about it. What was that manufactured kiss at the end? Where was the lead up to it - all I could see was that they hate each other's guts and suddenly they're kissing because they magically feel passionate about each other. Ugh! It's aweful, non-sensical and very boring. I'm hoping that there will be something interesting with Pluto coming into the house. His character seems to be at least rationale. Perhaps the dynamic of the third person in the house can help bridge the communication gap between First and Play so the chemistry between them can finally get going.

Can I be the 5000th comment? I don't know, but it seems amazing how much insight we're getting from so many people about this show. I've hardly seen it before. I hardly ever see this much passion about a series, even the ones that are purportedly so popular. But this drama is special and there is something really magical about it that is something greater than just the chemistry of the leads or the story-telling - it's got that certain compelling spark that comes when everything comes together into a cohesive whole and all the good elements build upon each other to create something like fireworks.

It might not be the most artistic series, but among the BL's it feels like a culmination of all the best things in the mainstream conception of BL's, like a sudden flowering of all their latent potential. It really is a series for everyone, and has taken all the old standard fare, things like team rivalries and lent them some gravitas, somehow. It's because the attention to detail is very strong and the nuanced interactions between characters are so subtle, and the emotions are so pure and multi-faceted, that the simple framework of the story is vastly elevated. Again, Bravo to P'Aof for his brilliant directing and amazing screenwriting.

I think it is supposed to be realistic if you look at the source material. I understand what you are saying about a realistic plot not being essential to a comedic show but if it's going to have both elements it would be better if they paid attention to the details. There is no problem with the plot elements being ignored if this was just a comedy, but I believe it's not. Of course this show could change drastically from the original, but the main plot element of the childhood trauma has already been introduced, and children have already been murdered.

Weir is creepy but Punn is perceived to be creepy because he hits on women in a really perverse way. I think they did portray that well and it was actually comical as he's trying to force strangers to take pictures with him. I think it's obvious he's hitting on them and their natural repulsion to his advances is something he is oblivious to which makes him seem like a predator. I think it's apparent, though, he's really a nice guy that just has a terrible approach to meeting women but the comedy comes from people misperceiving his intentions and treating him like a sexual predator.

This is supposed to be a BL, but I think it's more like half a BL at best. They are changing it up a little bit from the original source material, I heard. Check out the manga Antique Bakery, the Korean show Antique, or the original Japanese series from 2001. There is also a Japanese anime from 2008.

BTW, I'm writing this post ignoring all that source material, because this show needs to stand on its own. As an example, the chef Ono, in the original, is an internationally renowned chef so he could make his boss bend over backwards to accommodate him. They should have kept that scenario so it wouldn't seem so ridiculous that Weir can do whatever the hell he wants at the cafe. Supposedly, the owner opens the cafe to help capture the person that abused him as a young child, but here, he opens the cafe to seduce women. Maybe he did that as a cover for his real purpose but it really does seem like he opened the restaurant to seduce women by the way he's acting and his character doesn't seem clever enough to have a hidden ulterior motive. But to be fair, they might pull it off, and I might be a bit premature here.

This was torture to get through. I literally fell asleep. I like both actors but this script is just so random, and the scenes go nowhere. Gampelay usually plays lively, engaging characters. I think he's doing his best in a series with no script, so I don't blame him. His character is just kind of whiny and bitchy with virtually no redeeming qualities and Folk's character is constantly snarky, making for a really aweful mix of unpleasantness. I know they are supposed to not like each other, but it could have been at least comical. Even the scenes with Usagi somehow came out as totally bland and ended with Gameplay going back to being a whiny, infantile creep. There is some developing chemistry between the leads so there might be some hope.

It's ok so far. I think a murder plot mixed with a buffoonish comedy is rather unique for a BL. Most of the acting is pretty good, so there's that, but much of the plot is pretty non-sensical making this pretty jarring to watch. Why does the boss, Punn, tolerate hiring an employee that hits on him, and doesn't listen to anything he's telling him? Weir doesn't even like working with girls which Punn really and very creepily wants to hire to satisfy his perverted purpose for opening the cafe in the first place. He lets Weir hire a novice to do a job they don't even need - although, in reality, they did need more than one cook, but Punn said he was trying to hire two servers. Krathing could never, in reality, ever be hired for this job because he has no experience and there is no time for the cook to train a novice and cook for a busy restaurant/cafe. I'll agree with everyone else that Weir does not seem to have any of the requisite traits of the "Gay Conqueror", and if it is, supposedly, an inexplicable superpower it should be better explained as being one. Why does a wealthy parent hire a cry-baby bodyguard to protect their only child? Again, there might be a reason, but I'm betting one won't be provided.

This series was based on a novel and I'm sure there is some meaning behind the murder plot, but I'm finding this one to be implausible so far. It's true that in a lot of murder mysteries an unlikely character turns out to be the killer, but in this one, no one even seems possible. There might be some brilliant writing, later on, that convinces me that someone like "The Gay Conqueror" is actually a pedophile/child killer, but I'm finding it hard to believe at this point. Maybe someone's a schizophrenic with another personality, or is a brilliant thespian, but I just can't see how that would be a satisfying plot element. I'm suspending my judgement, though, and I am enjoying some of the comedy and most of the acting. Krathing's sad story has been the highlight of this series, so far. If it wasn't for that, this might have been a show in the bottom tier for me.

This is really the best BL in quite some time. It's been a pretty slow period, especially among the major production companies. This BL's pacing, the chemistry of the leads, the subtle underlying psychological interactions, and the compelling story are just fantastic. There doesn't seem to be a second of wasted time - there is always something going on that develops the story or explains the background of Pat and Pran's relationship. The positive interactions of Pat and Pran, always helping each other, is unplifting, and the quiet tension of their unresolved feelings for each other gives this show such a nice dramatic tension without being melodramatic. It seems like all the tropes are being avoided conscientiously, like the toxic female lead is avoided right away, and the jealous boyfriend one is dropped within one episode. If you're really good you don't need the crutch of stupid tropes. Without being an ITSAY, this is the best you can hope for among your regular BL's and for me it's very, very enjoyable.

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As always, great to have these insights from you. I still think these fights could have been staged better - they look like something out of the Keystone Cops. He could have taken some direction from Shakespeare here and made the fight more life-like and serious. I still like the dynamic you’re talking about here, though. The reconciliation of the parents is fused with those of the gangs and adds a nice level of extra depth to the fighting.

Well this was well worth it, and I really appreciate you took that much time to analyze this. To be honest, I didn't find anyone saying anything that approached an argument. I could only take so much of this show was slow before I tuned it out. Your objections make perfect sense to me, and I see now what some people object to but could not really articulate.

I thought the objections were so focused on the speed of the drama and that there was no real love story, that I really believed no one had any real reason to dislike this show.

Maybe there is a grey area here of what we consider ok as far as the completion of various side plots. I'm just going to go by my perceptions because I agree that some of your objections about the plot not being specific enough are totally valid, and really do demonstrate a little lack in attention to detail. I think I agree that this series is not deep enough to qualify for the Kafka treatment and search for deep symbolism. It's really not at that level, but perhaps does use some artistic license to explain a few things.

Why is chef Eve angry? I like that you called me out on my simple explanation of this, because, honestly I thought it could have been other things than revenge, but I didn't want to go into all the possibilities. Since it's not explained completely, the viewer can have multiple interpretations as to Eve's motivations. Now that might be vexing to some viewers and unimportant to others. Is it really critical to the enjoyment of the show to know exactly what Eve is doing here? I think that depends on whether you like other parts of the show so much you are willing to overlook this,. Also, if this happens with other characters, as you suggest, then this is an issue, because it keeps cropping up. The only answer we have as to her motivation occurs after the competition with the story of the monkey and the bean. If we take the analogy in that story literally, she is trying to get Aue but is only hurting herself in trying to get a hold of something that is out of her reach. She can't let go of him but she has a crush on him, and she has turned those feelings into anger, in my opinion. She looks pretty hostile in most of the scenes she's in and does seem antagonistic towards Aek. That is my interpretation of her motivation. It's just deep affection masked as anger. She also says to him that he always care for other people after talking to him, meaning that she knows he's a good person, but she has treated him like he was a bad one before. I don't believe she had good motivations in entering the competition - it's still something like seeking revenge and humiliating him because she's angry with him. But you may be right that she always finds ways to bump into him. It reminds me of a crush I had, and I behaved in a similar way. You really really want said person and want them to be in your life, but when they reject you, you get angry at them and scorn them while still trying to get close to them because you can't help yourself. I think that is a more complete explanation of Eve's motivation, and David Bigander did do something a little artistic in explaining it with that story. I always felt that was enough of an explanation for me. How does Eve's story contribute to the main conflict? I don't think it does and it's ok for me that there are several side conflicts that don't deal with the central one. It's true in a thousand dramas and novels like War and Peace or Middlemarch where there are several characters and several different conflicts. Some of those conflicts are related and bring out an interesting general theme. Let's just take Eve and Aek - they both have internal struggles involving a love interest. The theme that relates them is that love in life is complicated and often difficult to achieve. I could throw Nuna and her love life into that theme.

Chef Mu's motivations are pretty apparent to me, but that might be my subjective take on this. I agree again that it's not spelled out, but perhaps if you look at episode 10 at that point at 27:30 and watch Mu's face when Aue tells him that he was never competing against him. Mu's face suddenly looks shocked or distressed. I think he's just a fierce competitor that likes to be the winner. He doesn't really care about other people's feelings. The point of Nuna's break up with him is that he doesn't treat people right and even if he is successful, Nuna tells him it's not going to work with him. That Mu is rude to Aue when he was his instructor and still calls Aue a loser when he sees him again after all those years, tells me that he's very bad with people. He's a narcissist. I think his fierceness and antagonism is based on that and nothing more. He doesn't wish Aue well - he simply wants to beat him, or when he was his boss, to use him for his own ends. That is my interpretation of that character. This might be subjective but I strongly feel that is why he acts the way he does. I've found this to be realistic with many people in real life and I don't think David Bigander messed this one up - I do think it was clear, but, again this is my opinion.

As far as Aue's motivation, I believe it is still what I stated. In episode 9, he has a talk with Prem and he says to Prem that he doesn't want to compete anymore. Prem tells him, because he understands him, that he should do the competition because it's for his own good. He has to hone his skills, and the competition helps him with that. I'll agree with that as someone who knows this business. Prem, in a scene where his acting was actually quite good if you watch it, really lays out why Aue should continue with the competition according to his old philosophy and that is where Bigander spells it out for the viewer. I think his distress with chef Mu is just at being very harshly attacked by his boss. He took it like some athletes take similar scolding from their coach after they've lost a big game. That's all I read into that scene.

I think I'll have get back to you about Wiphob. In the novel he is actually the main antagonist, but I'll give you my take on his character with my initial impressions. He's had a lot of personal dealings with Aue and Aue understands he's a really bad guy as can be seen when he flies off to confront him after Aek gets a call from him. Wiphob is shown to be just like Chef Mu. Is he kind of a duplicate of Mu? I can agree with that criticism. Of the ones you mentioned Wiphob is the least well drawn character, but he is also very simple. His motivations are just obviously greed and power. His rude behavior with Aek after the competition and his attempt at blackmail with Aue demonstrate that very clearly. Why didn't they just get rid of this character? I think Mu couldn't be all those places that Wiphob was at during the show and he wouldn't be a person that would pick Aek up in that scene in the rain. He wouldn't take Aek home and help him and hit on him because he's straight, and quite a bit older.

I think you're still not right about the mom. I'm not sure what background your are from, but Asian moms like my mom are totally devoted and loving, but very tough. In school we say an A- is an Asian F, lol. I also stressed that this is a third-world setting in Nan province where career choices are not so casually made, or I should say that parents will not let their kids choose their profession because their kid says they love said profession. In episode 1 the mom makes it clear that she doesn't want him to go into cooking and that he has to stay in accounting. In the scene after the meltdown at the competition they show the scene with Aue talking to the mom and she doesn't seem to want to relent until he reassured her - I would look at her facial expression when Aue says he will make a great chef. Maybe Bigander relied on the cultural understanding here that it was such a big deal. Also a big deal is her accepting of her son being gay. My parents never accepted my being gay so I have personal experience with that. Even to this day my relatives try to set me up with a nice wife - it happens occasionally. I believe that the mom is so accepting of her son being gay is a little unrealistic, actually, and I'll give you that point. I think Bigander has given into certain BL fantasy land tropes with that one, but it is still possible. I think it is clear, though, that the reason she accepts her son being gay is that she wants to be a part of his life and will not that let them come between them - I would still have her acting a little queasy whenever Aue visits her, lol.

This has been wonderful talking about this, and I think you had some very good points. I see what you are talking about concerning the vagueness of various character developments. No one has taken the time to explain this to me and I really appreciate it, sincerely. I'll definitely clarify anything else about my point of view. I completely understand you not rewatching this. No one will ever make me reread Moby Dick. I have never understood why it was good, and don't have the time to reread it. I was really excited to see that White Whale but it wasn't worth it after 700+ pages of drab prologue. It's great going over the way you look at this drama - it kind of helps me think of ways of viewing a show that I never thought of, like the picture you were talking about and a clear composition that helps you navigate what that picture means. I'm still thinking about that one and what that picture is for this drama. I think it's more impressionistic and a little blurred perhaps, making the meaning perhaps clear for some and not for others. I think a lot of points seemed clear to me like the one's I explained above so the picture was 90 percent clear for me and allowed me to enjoy the drama without much difficulty. I understand where others who believe they got 30-40 percent of the picture would not like it at all. BTW this is not indicating that someone was not smart enough to see something in this show. I had some advantages just from my background. People are very busy and this show is very different and wasn't easy to consume like a lot of other BL's.

Thank you, much appreciated. I always find it fascinating to compare the screenplay and the novel, like a wonderful variation in a musical piece. The main thrust of the works are the same but what is sacrificed, what is improved, what is less good are all such interesting things to reflect on.

Hey, could you send me a link of the novel? It is definitely worth reading it for this series. Thanks for helping me and others appreciate this great show!

LOL. No, you meant the best chemistry ever. Like it's so real you think Ohm and Nanon are going to get married in real life. But no, thanks for the brilliant acting guys!!

I'm pretty confident it will be. I think 2gether wasn't that strong, imo. I still enjoyed it, but I'm rooting for this one considering all the other positive things it's doing beyond most BL's.

I'm sure you got it right and thank you for the correction.

Oh ok, the MDL board has three screenwriters, Bee, Pratchaya and Best. I definitely don't think the MDL board is a model of accuracy, so I'll go with what you're saying here. Well, I have to laud P'Aof for the great screenplay as well, and I compliment him very highly on it.

I'm pretty hopeful for this show. I really trust P'Aof's directorial skills. He's a screenwriter as well and I'm sure he had a lot of say in how that went as well. Whoever is doing the screenwriting is doing an awesome job because there is a lot more to this drama than at first glance. Considering how just a sudden crestfallen look on Pat's face has such significance you know P'Aof is working closely with the screenwriters to bring out the nuances in the story. The tragic underpinning lends this story so much more weight than something like 2gther. I think this drama will be even more successful than 2gther which got the COVID booster shot [see what I did there?], because it's got more substance and combines it with all the things we love about BL's. I think the chemistry and acting are better in this series as well.

I think P'Aof being part of the LGBT community doesn't like that Uke Seme dynamic or the straight guy falling for the one gay guy trope. He's innovative without seeming to be so. He's making a popular show, with good aesthetic sensibilities, and a positive LGBTQ+ message. Bravo!