Once again, I'm skimming for the most direct responses to what's written so I may glaze over the rest, it may seem like I don't get your humor or sarcasm, when really by the time I get to the end of the message I've mostly just forgotten I read them. This is a me problem, but it is something I will probably continue to do because I'm often writing in a hurry.Lyson:
Thank you for explaining this. You bring up subjects I am interested in and are related to things I've been paying attention to and thinking about for years. I could try to make my replies really simple, but it's probably for the best if I stay away. The discrepancy in effort will only continue to frustrate both of us.
All the best.
Elisheva:
Thank you for explaining this. You bring up subjects I am interested in and are related to things I've been paying attention to and thinking about for years. I could try to make my replies really simple, but it's probably for the best if I stay away. The discrepancy in effort will only continue to frustrate both of us.
All the best.
I see, I think I bring up a certain things (we both seem to pay attention to) and I want to focus on in the thread, and you want to expand on them into other issues, but for me, if the expansion is not something I'm interested in I don't really invest. In general, it's never that deep for me, these are just observations I want to address and get some perspective feedback on the direct psychological influence behind it (in this thread, almost no one who actually does thing I asked about even answered) so the viewpoint was mostly from people who don't do it, which reveals that the people who do it either don't want to talk about it, don't know why they do it or they feel so comfortable in their personal justifications of doing it that they just ignored the thread (which is interesting and revealing in many ways).
You could make your own threads for what you're interested in, then people who want to discuss your interested topics in depth would be more satisfying. I promise I won't crash with my half-attentive answers 😂
I see, I think I bring up a certain things (we both seem to pay attention to) and I want to focus on in the thread, and you want to expand on them into other issues,
But the 'other issues' I've brought up here are underlying contributors to the specific behaviours you asked about. Looks like this is one more thing you skimmed too fast to take in.
these are just observations I want to address and get some perspective feedback on the direct psychological influence behind it
Longer-range perspective and underlying psychology is part of that though.
almost no one who actually does thing I asked about even answered) so the viewpoint was mostly from people who don't do it, which reveals that the people who do it
Go back to the first page. You and others were quick into derogatory remarks and you trampled on the first person who stuck her head above the parapet. Why would ANYONE else who does these sorts of things volunteer themselves to be next in your line of fire?
That's the only revelation it's fair to take. If you genuinely want to know how they see it themselves, don't trash them. Or denigrate them again for not participating.
don't know why they do it
And that's the part I can contribute towards - some of the underlying subconscious cultural aspects. But you've decreed this off topic.
To be honest, it's looking more and more like you don't want to understand, that you're far more interested in using this to put others down.
If that's not the case, please accept this as feedback on how you're coming across.
You and others were quick into derogatory remarks and you trampled on the first person who stuck her head above the parapet
Ah, you mean the comment about how idols are meant to fulfill fan needs? Yes, no regrets about shutting that down. That's a level of unhealthy that you find in the types of fans who put up death wreathes in public for idols who do something they deem wrong, like smoking or breathing too close to a female/male who is considered an enemy. I won't engage in excess with people who show that level of batshit craziness, they need to be muted, not encouraged by having a sounding board.
You'll notice, they didn't even answer based on the question, just a general statement of belief that idols exist FOR them, ergo, by their way of thinking, they can do/say whatever they want. No. Nope. Sorry not sorry. They can stay beneath the parapet indefinitely.
And that's the part I can contribute towards - some of the underlying subconscious cultural aspects. But you've decreed this off topic.
Beyond the topic, for me. I did acknowledge the part of your comments I did agree with, i.e: the fact that the agencies are complicit in enabling, encouraging and sometimes even laying the foundations for fans to get caught up in bad or disrespectful off putting trends with regards to idol. The bts of Revenged Love's cast intimate scenes was an exact example of the production crew and showrunners exploiting the actors and making the fans feel validated for sharing and blowing those clips up. Terrible behaviour, very few fans took a step back and realised the issue, why? Because the rest were all pumping each other up about how it was alright because it was 'officially released', regardless it was done to prolong the incoming profit. No awareness, just braindead behaviour.
As to the other two points you made;
a) Part of that comes from exploiting legitimate human needs for a sense of belonging, or to love and be loved. And the consumerist world we've been building for more than a century now has gotten very good at separating us from legitimate ways to meet those needs so they can sell us inferior substitutes like socialising over the internet instead of in person.
and
b) The infantilising language for male actors has clear parallels with infantilising language used for women in decades past.
Over all, I just don't really agree that these are related to the issue I mentioned in this thread, so I glazed them over. To be very frank, this sort of reasoning sounds to me like excuses being made for people who are not able to use critical thinking, be self and surrounding aware and who have impulse and attachment control problems and also problems stayed grounded in reality, i.e: some sort of mental health issue. People need to be responsible and made to face their problematic behavior online, not be told that if the system twists them and the go along with it, it's not their fault.
In some ways, bringing up these topics does allow some people who do these things to actually reflect, if they come across my opinions on their behaviour and feel attacked, well. They can ask themselves why something they do and believe isn't problematic makes them feel attacked when it's discussed frankly and negatively outside of their enabler bubbles.
Additionally, 'understand' them is not exactly what I want to do, I want to learn about their wiring to be more exact. Humans are entertaining and bizarre and psychology is fascinating to me.
This answer is typed when I'm not working. Rare thing.
Anyway. ✌️
Hello, I will reply to this comment because I cannot quote your other comment for some reason.Aqua:
Highlight the part you want to quote. You should get a "Quote" option just over the highlighted part (unless it's broken on the app, I can never remember).
The always visible "Quote" option at the bottom quotes the entire post, which the system doesn't allow if it's too long or complicated with nesting quotes.
Was this also directed towards my comment? If so, I apologize for coming across that way. I thought my comment was just cheeky and sarcastic, but I do see why it may seem mean-spirited to others.
No, yours came across - to me - more as part of a conversation, something which could be engaged with.
You brought up some very interesting points that I enjoyed reading. Thank your for sharing.
Oh thank you, and thank you for reading my posts. You bring up interesting points as well. <3
Ah, you mean the comment about how idols are meant to fulfill fan needs? Yes, no regrets about shutting that down.
Suit yourself, respond however you want. But when you do that, recognise the environment you're creating. And if it's hostile, know that that's a big reason why your targets are staying away.
To be very frank, this sort of reasoning sounds to me like excuses being made for people
It's not. Why are you always so ungenerous towards others? It's exhausting.
I don't like infantalising behaviours either. But things like this can't be reduced to sound bytes - there will always be layers, including a myriad of social factors which shape and normalise behaviours and spread them to others.
If you only want simple, surface level sound bytes so you can look down on others, so be it. It's your choice and you are free to make it. But you're treating them as props for your own needs, much as they're doing with actors.
including a myriad of social factors which shape and normalise behaviours and spread them to others.
Mentally unhealthy behaviour should not be facilitated or encouraged or enabled by coming up with 'you're like this because' scenarios UNLESS that person can first acknowledge their behaviour is disconnected from reality and problematic in the first place. Only after the issue is acknowledged can any progress in breaking it down into why's and contributing factors be made, and going forward not doing it or adjusting behaviours can happen. But if you're nice and 'generous' about pussy-footing around their problematic behaviour, telling them all kinds of reasons why they're possibly doing it so they don't feel bad (despite it being bad that they're disrespecting other people [because those famous people are just people, humans, like the rest of us] as they go) about it while they're doing it without admitting they shouldn't be, you're giving them excuses and justifications, which as we see DAILY, they're already doing ad nauseum.
(this is a collective usage of 'you', not a specific you, as in YOU)
If you only want simple, surface level sound bytes so you can look down on others, so be it. It's your choice and you are free to make it. But you're treating them as props for your own needs, much as they're doing with actors.
Even if you say this, it really makes no difference. I know why I'm asking, I know my intentions in asking, and after the fact, how my answers come across to others says more about each individual person reading my comments than it does about my views on things, which goes for me as well in reverse. I am being honest about how I see these behaviours in people, there is no agenda, I have no need, I ask a question to highliight an issue and whatever responses I get (or don't get) so be it, I read, answer according to what I think is necessary and move on. How the conversations that follow are percieved or understood by others is not for me to worry about, just as how I percieve what others write is for me to worry about (and largely keep to myself unless they're particularly outstandingly off the mark like the commenter previously discussed then I am more blunt). I have my personal opinions about everyone who comments and discusses here with me, but that's my perception of those people and it's not on them to manage or try to make sense of or shape. Basically, how you (this is not a collective you, this is a YOU you) take my comments is for you to manage, not for me to try to shape a certain way.
But let someone misgender a female (call them sir they get so offended) or trans person and the fucking world is ending, but this is fine because it's a male idol? Pft.
You can find plenty of people on Twitter who consider any attractive fanservice involving actresses a horrific crime, but at the same time fetishize or fantasize about any attractive actor, sexualizing any interaction between them. This has been going on since the 2010s. The problem is that people have become very demanding of others, but have not raised their standards for themselves at all.
moe imagesRobertBobert:
?
Young women prefer a feminine and gentle, almost androgynous, ideal in guys.
This actually contradicts some of the reasons I've been told by these people, just like the one answering in the picture example I posted. It just seems like females with male = less than female types of issues have this self-justified behaviour, which is disrespectful in nature but they won't acknowledge it, they'll just keep doing it.
You can find plenty of people on Twitter who consider any attractive fanservice involving actresses a horrific crime, but at the same time fetishize or fantasize about any attractive actor, sexualizing any interaction between them. This has been going on since the 2010s. The problem is that people have become very demanding of others, but have not raised their standards for themselves at all.
Nothing mentioned here is news. I wanted some of them to try and explain it, but from answers I've received on ither platforms, like this answer in the picture, calling these men in these disrespectful ways (that they'd be offended by themselves in the tables were turned) is all just a joke to them. They think it's fine because it trendy and the people doing it all bolster eachother.
