HKN

I think it's rather the writing and directing. They wanted him to look like a typical BL uke 😔 If the role was written more like Prem is in real life, it would look much better. As you said, his off-screen chemistry with Buon is amazing.

Not only a bottom. Top as well.

You're rigt, there are many tiring tropes, one of my least favourite is when one of the main characters gets drunk and either confesses his feelings or downright seduces the other main character. I don't mind the lack of explicit consent that much but I think it's not very creative to move the plot with the use of this kind of scene. Also, I think when you are so drunk that you don't remember anything the next day, you would not be able to have a good sex.
I also appreciate you as a partner in this discussion. I think it's important to try to understand the other party before you judge. I think the guy was an adolescent, they tend to see everything in black and white.

Yeah, I believe that some straight women will watch it but it's not as attractive for them as BLs are. It has to be very good to keep their attention (while some will watch even bad BLs if the boys are cute). Anyway, I agree that women are more open-minded in general.
Btw I plan to watch Night Flight in the future but now I'm not emotionally ready for that now. I would like to watch something realistic but not too heavy which is really difficult to find :(
When I think about it, my main issue with most BL dramas may not be that they don't depict GAY people and GAY relationships realistically but that their depiction of people and relationships IN GENERAL doesn't feel realistic. Simply it seems the screenwriters don't know how to write realistic characters and a believable story. Everybody acts childish and overreacts and there are stupid misunderstandings that wouldn't happen to sane people in real life or the characters are either too god or too bad, that's why it's hard for me to relate to them.

Thank you, yes, I think most fujoshis are good allies. It is interesting you say that Western LGBT movies focus on politics, I haven't seen anything like that. But it's true I haven't watched a lot of Western LGBT movies. I know only Call Me By Your Name, Young Royals, Carol, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, The Hours, Heartstopper and some seasons of SKAM and none of them is about politics. Anyway, I think it's good when a movie or series talks about gay rights because it's an important topic (although it may look annoying for people out of the LGBT community) but I probably wouldn't like it if the whole series/movie was mainly about that. I like that Western LGBT movies and series (at least those I've watched), unlike most Asian BL dramas, show the real problems of gay people like coping with identity crisis, coming out, homophobia, relationship etc or at least they show it more realistically and don't have so black-and-white characters. Asian BL dramas either ignore those topics or take them to extremes - e. g. that the parents there are totally psycho or that the main couple has really dangerous enemies.

I agree that there should be more lesbian/bi girls representation in Asian movies and series and now it seems that producers start to understand there is a demand for that and we have one GL series airing and two in preparation. But I think that GAP has the same problems as BL dramas - it is not a REALISTIC representation (plus there is the toxic fanservice around it, as well). Now I get why some sapphics criticized it before it even started airing. But I saw that many bi and lesbian girls on MDL are really excited about it, so it most likely has a sense even if it's unrealistic. I'm curious if Be My Baby or 23.5 will be better. Handmaiden is on my "plan to watch" list, as well, I just haven't dared to watch it yet because I'm afraid it will be very "heavy" and emotional for me. I think the reason why there haven't been much series about lesbian relationship is that straight women and gay men rather want to see hot guys and straight men are usually not into romantic stuff and rather watch lesbian porn. So, the potential audience is not that wide.

I agree that BL stuff can probably help change the (Asian's) society's view of sexual minorities for the better although some people may expect gays to act like BL characters (which are products of straight women's phantasy) and be disappointed (and possibly show hate) if they are not like that. Fortunately, I saw that many straight women also follow accounts of real gay couples on YouTube, so it seems they can tolerate real gay men (although I believe not every gay couple would match their taste). What is needed is tolerance even to people whom we don't understand or like and who don't fit in the boxes in our head.
It is interesting to read that some women describe BL dramas and movies as "safe spaces" for them to examine men. That's cute but I hope they are aware that those "men" are usually just characters created by women who don't understand the male way of thinking. I felt it very stronly e. g. in KinnPorsche where most male characters acted rather like hysterical teenage girls which was ruining my impression of the series. It looked even more absurd in the mafia setting. But I don't want to say there can't be series with unrealistic male characters, it's just important not to create expectations about (gay) men based on that.

My own theories why straight women like BL dramas are these:
1. There is a larger number of hot men than in other dramas.
2. It is something they are not used to see very often and which is even considered a taboo in certain cultures, that's why it's attractive and exciting.
3. The women who watch it crave for a more equal relationship without traditional gender roles (although in many BL shows, the relationship between the main characters resembles a tradition male-female relationship where one is dominant and the other one submissive).
4. The characters have to overcome more obstacles than normal couples (identity crisis, homophobia, bullying, parental disapproval etc.) which gives their love even a greater value and it shows that real love can overcome any obstacle in the end.
5. The dramas show that every person deserves love, even those who are consisdered weird or outcast which gives the audience hope that they will find love even if they don't feel worthy of it (this is not valid for shows where almost all the male characters are gay or bi, so being into men is kinda a norm there).
6. In real life, it is usually quite hard for men to express emotions and show their vulnerability, so it is unusual and attractive for the women to see men doing that, giving in to other men and accepting to be seen as "weak" and weird.

When I think about it, I guess the reason of the scene where Joo Won kissed to girl was that the creators wanted to say that when Yoo Han saw that, it turned him on and aroused his desire to kiss Joo Won, as well. But I don't really understand what Joo Won's motives to kiss the girl would be. He seemed to be attracted to the boy from the beginning and showed no interest in the girl before. I think the movie would make a complete sense without that scene.
I'm also not mad that Yoo Han did not change in the end - under these circumstances, it's very difficult. Maybe it would only be possible for him to slowly change if he had continuous support of Joo Won which, unfortunately, did not happen. So, the endig was sad but realistic.
Maybe I would like an ending where he would burst into tears after praying, some girl in the church would notice that and would ask him what happened, he would confess it to her and she would be shocked but still showed compassion and soothed him which would give him hope that he will have a safe space in the church in the future where he can gradually take the courage to accept himself. But it would have to be a different girl than the one Joo Won kissed because she would probably feel jealous after that confession.

Maybe it was unnecesasary but completely understandable IMO. I think the atmosphere among Christians is not that good - the current Pope is quite tolerant but as I know, he still insists that sex between two people of the same gender is a sin (just being homosexual is not). The reports about his views of homosexuality are quite contradictory though and I believe there can be some censorship from other people in Vatican. Even when he doesn't approve homosexual activities, many other powerful people in the church think he is too tolerant and even accuse him of heresy. The situation in different Catholic countries varies a lot and the influence of the pope is not that strong - it is rather about the local culture, as you said. I believe that even if the Pope said sex between people of the same gender was not a sin, most clergymen would not accept it. And there are also many Orthodox and Protestant Christians - for them, the Pope is no authority at all and they are often even less tolerant to homosexuality than Catholics (namely the US Evangelical churches are terrible fanatics). I think that the church in this movie was rather Protestant because Catholics usually don't sit in a circle and read and discuss the Bible together, they just listen to the sermon of the priest. I was quite surprised that the Christians here were kinda open to Joo Won's view of homosexuality but I think it might have been because they did not want to look rude (especially to a newcommer) and they would continue thinking it was a sin anyway. Although Protestants put focus on each person's individual relationship with the God based on their study of the Bible rather than listening to authorities, they are prone to literal and "traditional" interpretation of the Bible more than Catholics who are more "creative". Catholics rather rely on the opinion of theoligists who are usually more educated about the original languages of the Bible and the whole cultural context, so they know nothing is "black and white" and literal interpretations can be wrong.

So, my conclusion is that living in a conservative country definitely affects sexual minorities in a bad way but being a Christian makes it even worse. I'm so glad I don't live there.

Of course, other thing that affects you strongly is your inborn character and individual experience. This guy was most likely very influenced by the loss of his parents which made him more vulnerable and anxious, that's why it was so hard for him to assert himself - the Christian community was his substitute family, so he was afraid of disappointing and losing them.

Side note: You probably know it but I want to emhasize the problem is not only in Korea but in most Asian countries, i. e. in Sri Lanka, you can to to prison for homosexual acts for up to ten years. Of course, the situation in Africa is bad, too, regardless of religion, and in Eastern Europe, it's not ideal either. And even in tolerant countries like United States, there are very conservative Christian communities (like Evangelicals or Mormons) where being gay is not easy at all and you are condemned by your own family, friends and the whole neighbourhood if you come out.

As to BL dramas, I also believe that they can help people in those countries to open their mind and become more tolerant towards sexual minorities even though they are not realistic and sometimes include stupid stereotypes. I am glad that more and more BL dramas and movies attempt to be more realistic (e. g. they talk about sexual orientation explicitly and are not implying that anyone can fall in love with any gender or they show homophobia). What irks me is the often present stereotypical seme-uke dynamics where ukes have no will or personality (or their whole personality is being cute lol), they suck at everything and are completely dependant on the seme (and in bed, they are treated like inflatable dolls). It's important to talk about these stereotypes and I'm glad that this page enables that. I hope the creators will reflect the opinion of the international LGBT audience, not only the taste of the traditional BL audience (Asian straight women).

Yeah, translation and understanding the cultural context can change the meaning a lot.

The creators most likely meant it like that, yeah. On the other hand, they showed he knew the Bible when he was able to justify homosexuality with a verse from that. I felt really sorry for Yoo Han because as you said, without the community he would be completely alone and at the same time, staying there supported him to think he was a sinner. Joo Won could have known it and not to have played with him like that. Maybe he did not have that much empathy.
As to the Bible, there are many interpretations how the verses allegedly condemning homosexuality were actually meant. I like the theory that it referred to sex between two men when they did it against their nature - mostly as a part of a pagan religous rituals. I recommend the YouTube channel That Theology Teacher, the creator is a Catholic theologian and openly gay at the same time and has interesting views of homosexuality in the context of Christianity.
TBH, I think it's possible that it was meant to condemn any sex between two men but it just reflected the religious beliefs of Jews at that time it was created. The Bible was written not directly by the God but by people who were not only inspired by the God but also influenced by the time and environment they lived in. Especially in Leviticus and other arts of the Old Testament, there are many things that are really crazy from the contemporary point of view that noone takes seriously anymore (e. g. the ban to cut your facial hair - Lev 19:27 or permission of slavery - Ex 21), so why should we take the condemnation of sexual intercourse between two men seriously? Jesus' teachings are very different from that and he never condemned homosexuality. In the New Testament, only St Paul did and it is again questionable how it was actually meant and even if he meant to condemn any sexual intercoursebetween two men, I believe it reflected his personal beliefs rather than the God's will.
Although some Christians deny it, the Bible definitely contradicts itself and I think we should take it as an inspiration and not a dogma that should be taken literally. In my opinion, it's better to create your faith based on your personal spiritual experience (when you sincerely look into your heart and find out what helps you to live a better life and be at peace). Religion can inspire us to find out something that you already subconsciously knew but personal experience and personal relationship with the God/the divine should be primary.

Hi, I agree that the term "whore" is not very accurate here. I didn't know how to express it (maybe because I'm not that good at English). I don't condemn when someone has sexual interactions with more people in a short amount of time when BOTH the parties know it's just for fun and without any commintments. But I think it should be expressed clearly. In this context, especially when the people he kissed/slept with were conservative Christians (and, at least in case of Yoo Han, very insecure about themselves and their sexuality), Joo Won must have known he would hurt the people he kissed/slept with if it later turned out he did not take it seriously at all. I completely agree with your comment https://kisskh.at/746923-original-sin#comment-12282869. That's exactly what I wanted to express.

I haven't watched it yet but it's on my "plan to watch" list. Is it available for free? I know Strongberry stuff Is usually hard accessible (with the exception of Choco Milk Shake). Anyway, it means the actor has already played at least three LGBT characters because he was also one of the leads in the BL drama called Love Class. It belongs to the most enjoyable BL dramas I've watched although it doesn't have a very high rating on MDL. The only thing that disappointed me a bit was that some things that the other main character did before the end were rather over the top to create unnecessary drama and that there was only one kiss if I remember it well and not very passionate (although it was not the typical Korean BL kiss). It's funny that after that, I supposed that the actor that stars here, as well, is uncomfortable kissing a man but here, he was very good which amazed me. So, it must have been either the other actor or the directing. However, the other actor was very charismatic and he was most likely one of the main reasons I enjoyed it so much. I wish to see them again as a couple with better kisses.

@Maggi64 Maybe he did not want a serious relationship and was just a player or was not as courageous as he wanted to look. He disappointed me, indeed. But what was even weirder for me was the fact that they made him kiss a girl. And after a while he goes and kisses a guy. Both passionate kisses. OK, so maybe he's bisexual (at least one person in the main BL couple must be bisexual lol) but still why does he do it with two different people in such a short time? I wonder if he was really such a whore and if he felt anything to one of them. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Moreover, he was a Christian. Yeah, I also wish it was longer but at the same time, I would be scared the scriptwriters would just come with some stupid ideas to make the story longer instead of making it more logical like they did in many BL series (e. g. Between Us). So, maybe it's good it's short. Still a better experience for me than most BL series with totally childish characters.

I think it can be a problem for idols in Asian countries, they usually don't reveal (real) partners before getting older so that fans can dream about them or people can ship them with others. I hate it, too.

I think they wanted to say that sometimes it's our own thoughts that is the most dangerous to us. The immediately stopped hugging because they automatically expected they would be judged but in the end, it was only in their heads. Maybe it's not that likely to happen but sometimes we expect something bad based on our experience and in the end we find out it doesn't always have to be like that. I loved the message.

In my opinion, it just shows the reality of some people, it doesn't want to tell the audience what is right or what is wrong. But I would also appreciate a more closed ending. Anyway, it's still better than most Asian BL series. The characters were at least portrayed realistically and didn't act like childish idiots, so I appreciated that.

He was very childish, indeed, and the bodyguards in general acted rather like teenage girls which annoyed me a lot but there were still things that kept me watching (namely the side couples and knowing there would be good NC scenes lol). Also, if you can't stand violence, don't watch it. For me, the violence was not as painful to watch as the illogical behaviour of the characters. It was visible that the novel was written by a girl that doesn't understand men's way of thinking. But it is a very popular series, so you should probably give it one more chance if you don't mind the violence.

I doubt it would change and moreover, it is how the character is written in the novels :(

Thank you very much!

I also think they were real. And a part of me wants to believe they still are 🤦😭 But ZeeNuNew don't give me the same vibe. I still feel some awkwardness between them.