you call that a happy ending?????? wtf that was an ending for sh*t yeah there is a possibility but they dint show…
I would definitely call that a happy ending - Otaro let her in his house and told her to help him make beef stroganoff (their dish.) You can see how he was starting to let down his guard a bit, and it helped that Saiko asked him for more memories for the current her, not just the past her. Plus they're soulmates and they would end up together no matter what. However, I see your point that they didn't SHOW us how they got together but the ending of #10 was so much better than the ending of episode 10 of Kiss. But, like you, I always want more too. :-)
I loved this last episode so much I've watched it twice already. :-) (And I keep thinking that Nakamura Anne, the actor who plays Hase, looks like she could be Kiriyama Renn's little sister, and how fun it would be if he turned up as a cameo...) LOL.
I'm a little confused by your definition, so I'll just list a few here and see if you think they fall into the category you're looking for? Yamada kun to 7 nin no Majo The Disastrous Life of Saiki K Orange (probably not this one if you're not wanting time travel...or is it??) Not Quite Dead Yet Boku wa Mari no Naka (Does body switching count?) Alice in Borderland
(And are you looking for a parallel universe story?)
Thank you for this. I agree, people will say "he wanted it" but he wasn't coherent enough to want it, and then…
It’s been nice having this conversation so far. I don’t actually feel like we have “opposing views” but I haven’t been able to express that well enough on here yet. You know a lot more about this particular subject than I do, but I don’t feel like I’m opposing your ideas or opinions (maybe you do though.) I’ve definitely gained specific knowledge that I didn’t have before through this exchange so far and that’s a good thing, of course.
Edit: now that I've taken my own Adderall for the day (we're twins that way!) I wanted to add a few things here.
My original statement was this: "LGBTQ+ media is being produced in great quantities all over the world, (and have been for years) but they don't usually have the tropes and fetishizing fanservice for straight women that many (too many!) BL's from Asia have. It's media produced for the queer community, not straight women, which is very different."
I've watched a great deal of LGBTQIA+ media over the years, from all over the world, and I can see the difference in the use of specific tropes and plot devices from BL's (which originated in Japan, I know that) and other places throughout Asia and media produced elsewhere. Obviously there are sexual assault themes that come up elsewhere, because it's a universal issue that humans face, but it seems ubiquitous in Asian BL's (and at least one of the articles linked bears that out.) Also, the tropes found in K-dramas and others (wrist grabs, catching while falling, etc, etc) are found often in BL's, which I usually find mildly humorous, if unnecessary (which is just my opinion). And I don't want to sanitize or censor what the queer "community" produces, or watches, or reads - reiterating what you've said and posted about the wide and diverse range of things that get watched and produced. I really appreciated this quote from your last comment: "The sterilization of what is deemed a "bad image" for queer folks (in the case of our discussion, enjoying taboo content in a queer series) is an ongoing problem that has reached all corners of modern queer existence. Both articles highlight how making content/existing as a being that is deemed offensive by "normal standards" (and shedding light on who the people are setting those standards because it ain't The Gays!) is for heterosexual consumption more than queer liberation because policing queer creativity--be that the making of or the enjoyment of--does not help our community as a whole." But I'll be very honest and say that I'm still wrestling with this truth you just named and the ubiquity of the rape and assault tropes in the BL that we're both watching right now.
It seems that this part of the sentence was the one you took most issue with, "fetishizing fanservice for straight women that many (too many!) BL's from Asia have" (?) and I understand why now, I think. While I still read lots of comments about the risk of fetishizing queer men by straight women, (including from friends of mine!) I'm grateful for this conversation with you because I've learned a lot since I wrote this comment. I would obviously edit this statement quite a bit now. Now I understand more about the importance that BL has had (and continues to have) to many within the queer community and that women, queer and straight and otherwise, have contributed to the BL fandom in ways that are groundbreaking. (And that lots of queer women enjoy BL too.)
I would still say that there needs to be media produced by the queer community, for the queer community, and acted, produced, directed and marketed by and for the queer community. One day I hope that the majority of BL characters could be played by queer actors who are openly queer and that they would feel safe being out. (I guess people could disagree with me about that, but that's an issue in the US for sure. Representation is important, especially for the transgender community and having actors be able to play themselves is incredibly important. I'm not saying that as if you don't already know this, of course, but for anyone else who might be reading this.)
Another edit: (I keep wanting to edit and add here..) :-) Thanks for the link about BL's and Taiwan - I look forward to reading it.
Right. I agree, like we have had so many shows that have shown way worse than what these BL shows shows. Hell,…
As a full-grown adult, I don’t need a show for kids. I think rape is used as a plot device in far too many dramas and comments like yours will never convince me otherwise.
Thank you for this. I agree, people will say "he wanted it" but he wasn't coherent enough to want it, and then…
I haven't had time to look at all of your articles yet - it's been a very stressful last part of the semester. Just a couple of comments though and a question or two. Mizoguchi said: "[The study] finally argues that yaoi has an unprecedented potential to function as a lesbian and feminist genre." You rightly pointed out that I didn't include queer women in my statement about BL being (generally) written by women, for women. I can admit when I'm wrong, and I erred by not overtly including queer women in the BL fandom. Also, I absolutely give Mizoguchi's decades-long scholarship more weight than any white Western female writer, that's not even a question. It's why I mentioned her first, and those other two articles almost as an afterthought, and i guess I shouldn't have. Because I'm also a researcher and I care a lot about which voices get amplified and centered, and I don't want to make it seem otherwise by sharing almost throwaway links. This comment ended with "I personally hate things" - did you have something to add to that?
Your next comment had this quote: "Hey, I don't like depictions of sexual violence in my shows either. Like most people, my squicks are inconsistent (shows = NO, written fiction = sure yeah). That said, I actually agree that what happened between YongXing was SA and I don't like people trying to whitewash it. It *was* SA, plain and simple. But I think that's getting away from ou initial point, which was about people who enjoy series that depict content like this not automatically being straight women who fetishize queer people because liking problematic things is not evidence of one's sexuality either way." Did you mean "your" initial point, or "our" initial point?
I've read both of these articles you linked: "Here are some articles on why sanitizing queerness is a tool for heterosexual consumption, not queer liberation: http://diversityrulesmagazine.com/2016/03/11/sanitizing-gay-culture/ https://thescarlet.org/17408/larts/monteros-backlash-and-reclamation/" There was nothing in either of them that I disagree with. The first article was interesting too, but it doesn't mention BL or the use of rape and assault as a plot device in BL's which is what we were talking about. So I'm not sure how that ties into our conversation because I definitely don't want the queer community to lose any of its special-ness. I don't think you're saying that just because I don't think rape should figure heavily into BL's that I want to sanitize queer culture, but that's why I'm asking. I've read some before about Lil Nas X and respect him a lot for making art specifically for the queer community, as a queer artist. I read a lot about religious trauma (I'm a trauma researcher, by the way, as one of my gigs) and so there was nothing that was particularly new or surprising there.
I wasn't able to access the full Welker article "Flower Tribes" and I'm curious about 21st century readership and fandom after the internet is created, versus when it started in the 70's and 80's.
I can't open this article: "Here’s an article about Japanese gay men’s attitudes toward fujoshi https://t.co/0N2ZC21lNj?amp=1"
I could be wrong, but it seems like the articles you've linked are mostly about Japan's BL, manga, anime and yaoi culture, and the BL that's having this much discussion is Taiwanese, obviously. Have you seen articles about Taiwan and BL? The culture is so different in those two countries (and one has legalized marriage for queer couples, and one hasn't yet - but that's NOT to imply that there aren't still homophobic structures to overcome, the US is proof of that.)
I didn't get a chance to watch this video you linked: A gay man's opinion about yaoi/BL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTKla_21ARU I did read all of the comments underneath and found the conversation very interesting. I appreciated the wide variety of opinions, and I found it helpful. The queer men that I'm around feel deeply uncomfortable with women (straight women in particular) sexualizing them for entertainment, but I do admit and respect that that's not always the case.
Right. I agree, like we have had so many shows that have shown way worse than what these BL shows shows. Hell,…
Also, what a lazy way to try to insult someone! It's like: "I don't like that this person wants to see rape used as a plot point less often in BL's (and dramas period), so I'll pull out the completely overused and makes-no-sense 'SJW' - that'll teach them!" Um, no.
This comment is like a breath of fresh air. Thank you for bringing a nuanced take! The thought process in the…
There are many of us who hate those k-drama tropes as well. We don't "all" agree that it's ok and just a story. But sexual harassment isn't as bad as full-on sexual assault - although all of it is sexual violence.
Thank you for this. I agree, people will say "he wanted it" but he wasn't coherent enough to want it, and then…
Again, thanks for your comment, and for the links. (I don't mind long comments btw.) It's getting late here, so I'll take a look tomorrow at the links you provided.
But I did want to respond to a few things. Namely: "I wholeheartedly agree that we need more media by and for queer people! But I think you and I might have different definitions of what that means. To me, "by and for queer people" means... well, it was created by a queer person with queer people in mind. To me, that does not mean "wholesome, no problematic content allowed!"' First let me say, YES, that's the definition I meant as well. Media created by a queer person with queer people in mind. That's exactly what I meant by that. Not "wholesome, no problematic content allowed!"' Not at all. And I'm not sure how else to say it. I'm finding it hard to convince folks on here that just because I find the overuse of sexual violence in tv shows repulsive that I am not a Puritan, I'm not a moralist, (whatever that means), I'm not trying to police what other people watch, and that I only want to watch G rated stuff. Because that just ain't true. I watch some pretty kinky shit and enjoy the hell out of it. I am a full-grown adult, after all. But there's a real difference between two CONSENTING adults (or more than two adults, frankly, I'm not here to judge) and what we've seen in this drama and what I've seen way too much of over the years. (Btw, I don't mind watching sexual activity between two consenting high school students either - as long as it's consenting.) I don't mind age gaps (as long as there isn't too much of a power imbalance), I don't mind infidelity (I don't love it but I'm not opposed to watching it either), and I think erotica, filmed well, can be absolutely stunningly beautiful. I am NOT a freaking prude like some other asshole commenter on here called me. But there is no convincing me that rape, and using a substance and a power trip to get what you want, is a good use of a storyline. Because I'll never agree.
" "BL is almost exclusively written by straight women." Are you saying they're straight women because they have identified themselves as straight, or are you assuming their sexuality based on the content they enjoy?" I'm saying that historically BL's have been written by women (straight or closeted, as you quite rightly reminded me), for generally, a women's audience. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-05-26/boys-love-authors-discuss-the-impact-of-lgbt-awareness-on-bl/.146936 Academic scholar Akiko Mizoguchi has been researching this for twenty years and she says this: "historically, BL has been written by and for women, describing the genre as “women's fantasies.” However, she noted that this has been changing as BL's popularity has broadened beyond its initial niche status. It appears that rising LGBT acceptance in Japan has decreased the stigma associated with reading BL, especially for men. " (I wish I could get the rest of her articles in English...)
Like I said earlier, I'm also interested in reading/watching the links you provided. I'm connected to a university so I'd like to see academic links as well, if possible. (I've been having trouble finding those so that would be helpful.) I have read about the origins of the word "fujoshi" so the YouTube link you left will be interesting, I'm sure.
"It’s important to hear from actual BL fans themselves." I agree, of course! I have been reading a lot from BL fans, but also BL critics, who are also important to listen to.
Lastly (tonight), "Straight people aren't the only ones allowed to like bad things without it defining their sexuality." Again, I agree! I'm not sure how we got here. It could be that I'm not making myself clear enough, and I'll try to do that more tomorrow. Let me try a different way for now. I hate when sexual assault is used as a plot point- on anyone. American soap operas have used that plot device for years and it's f*cking tired as hell by now. I don't want to see women getting sexually assaulted to move a plot forward or so she can then declare her love for her rapist (1980's General Hospital and Days of our Lives soap operas used this plot) and I don't want to see men getting sexually assaulted only to fall in love with their attacker either. I'm curious how many people here would be ok with this HIStory storyline if one of the characters was a woman. I've actually heard a person say that assault is different when it's two men. And that's a person who watches a LOT of BL. That's scary. And wrong. And that, in my mind, has not as much to do with one's sexuality as with caring more about being entertained, no matter the cost. A remaining question for me is this: what does it say when straight people defend the use of rape in BL's because it's fun (for them) to watch?
The rest of your questions and comments I want to think about before I answer. Again, thank you for taking the time to comment.
1 
However, I see your point that they didn't SHOW us how they got together but the ending of #10 was so much better than the ending of episode 10 of Kiss. But, like you, I always want more too. :-)
(And I keep thinking that Nakamura Anne, the actor who plays Hase, looks like she could be Kiriyama Renn's little sister, and how fun it would be if he turned up as a cameo...) LOL.
Yamada kun to 7 nin no Majo
The Disastrous Life of Saiki K
Orange (probably not this one if you're not wanting time travel...or is it??)
Not Quite Dead Yet
Boku wa Mari no Naka (Does body switching count?)
Alice in Borderland
(And are you looking for a parallel universe story?)
Edit: now that I've taken my own Adderall for the day (we're twins that way!) I wanted to add a few things here.
My original statement was this: "LGBTQ+ media is being produced in great quantities all over the world, (and have been for years) but they don't usually have the tropes and fetishizing fanservice for straight women that many (too many!) BL's from Asia have. It's media produced for the queer community, not straight women, which is very different."
I've watched a great deal of LGBTQIA+ media over the years, from all over the world, and I can see the difference in the use of specific tropes and plot devices from BL's (which originated in Japan, I know that) and other places throughout Asia and media produced elsewhere. Obviously there are sexual assault themes that come up elsewhere, because it's a universal issue that humans face, but it seems ubiquitous in Asian BL's (and at least one of the articles linked bears that out.) Also, the tropes found in K-dramas and others (wrist grabs, catching while falling, etc, etc) are found often in BL's, which I usually find mildly humorous, if unnecessary (which is just my opinion). And I don't want to sanitize or censor what the queer "community" produces, or watches, or reads - reiterating what you've said and posted about the wide and diverse range of things that get watched and produced.
I really appreciated this quote from your last comment: "The sterilization of what is deemed a "bad image" for queer folks (in the case of our discussion, enjoying taboo content in a queer series) is an ongoing problem that has reached all corners of modern queer existence. Both articles highlight how making content/existing as a being that is deemed offensive by "normal standards" (and shedding light on who the people are setting those standards because it ain't The Gays!) is for heterosexual consumption more than queer liberation because policing queer creativity--be that the making of or the enjoyment of--does not help our community as a whole."
But I'll be very honest and say that I'm still wrestling with this truth you just named and the ubiquity of the rape and assault tropes in the BL that we're both watching right now.
It seems that this part of the sentence was the one you took most issue with, "fetishizing fanservice for straight women that many (too many!) BL's from Asia have" (?) and I understand why now, I think. While I still read lots of comments about the risk of fetishizing queer men by straight women, (including from friends of mine!) I'm grateful for this conversation with you because I've learned a lot since I wrote this comment. I would obviously edit this statement quite a bit now. Now I understand more about the importance that BL has had (and continues to have) to many within the queer community and that women, queer and straight and otherwise, have contributed to the BL fandom in ways that are groundbreaking. (And that lots of queer women enjoy BL too.)
I would still say that there needs to be media produced by the queer community, for the queer community, and acted, produced, directed and marketed by and for the queer community. One day I hope that the majority of BL characters could be played by queer actors who are openly queer and that they would feel safe being out. (I guess people could disagree with me about that, but that's an issue in the US for sure. Representation is important, especially for the transgender community and having actors be able to play themselves is incredibly important. I'm not saying that as if you don't already know this, of course, but for anyone else who might be reading this.)
Another edit: (I keep wanting to edit and add here..) :-)
Thanks for the link about BL's and Taiwan - I look forward to reading it.
Mizoguchi said: "[The study] finally argues that yaoi has an unprecedented potential to function as a lesbian and feminist genre." You rightly pointed out that I didn't include queer women in my statement about BL being (generally) written by women, for women. I can admit when I'm wrong, and I erred by not overtly including queer women in the BL fandom.
Also, I absolutely give Mizoguchi's decades-long scholarship more weight than any white Western female writer, that's not even a question. It's why I mentioned her first, and those other two articles almost as an afterthought, and i guess I shouldn't have. Because I'm also a researcher and I care a lot about which voices get amplified and centered, and I don't want to make it seem otherwise by sharing almost throwaway links.
This comment ended with "I personally hate things" - did you have something to add to that?
Your next comment had this quote:
"Hey, I don't like depictions of sexual violence in my shows either. Like most people, my squicks are inconsistent (shows = NO, written fiction = sure yeah). That said, I actually agree that what happened between YongXing was SA and I don't like people trying to whitewash it. It *was* SA, plain and simple. But I think that's getting away from ou initial point, which was about people who enjoy series that depict content like this not automatically being straight women who fetishize queer people because liking problematic things is not evidence of one's sexuality either way."
Did you mean "your" initial point, or "our" initial point?
I've read both of these articles you linked:
"Here are some articles on why sanitizing queerness is a tool for heterosexual consumption, not queer liberation:
http://diversityrulesmagazine.com/2016/03/11/sanitizing-gay-culture/
https://thescarlet.org/17408/larts/monteros-backlash-and-reclamation/"
There was nothing in either of them that I disagree with. The first article was interesting too, but it doesn't mention BL or the use of rape and assault as a plot device in BL's which is what we were talking about. So I'm not sure how that ties into our conversation because I definitely don't want the queer community to lose any of its special-ness. I don't think you're saying that just because I don't think rape should figure heavily into BL's that I want to sanitize queer culture, but that's why I'm asking.
I've read some before about Lil Nas X and respect him a lot for making art specifically for the queer community, as a queer artist. I read a lot about religious trauma (I'm a trauma researcher, by the way, as one of my gigs) and so there was nothing that was particularly new or surprising there.
I wasn't able to access the full Welker article "Flower Tribes" and I'm curious about 21st century readership and fandom after the internet is created, versus when it started in the 70's and 80's.
I can't open this article: "Here’s an article about Japanese gay men’s attitudes toward fujoshi https://t.co/0N2ZC21lNj?amp=1"
I could be wrong, but it seems like the articles you've linked are mostly about Japan's BL, manga, anime and yaoi culture, and the BL that's having this much discussion is Taiwanese, obviously. Have you seen articles about Taiwan and BL? The culture is so different in those two countries (and one has legalized marriage for queer couples, and one hasn't yet - but that's NOT to imply that there aren't still homophobic structures to overcome, the US is proof of that.)
I didn't get a chance to watch this video you linked: A gay man's opinion about yaoi/BL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTKla_21ARU
I did read all of the comments underneath and found the conversation very interesting. I appreciated the wide variety of opinions, and I found it helpful. The queer men that I'm around feel deeply uncomfortable with women (straight women in particular) sexualizing them for entertainment, but I do admit and respect that that's not always the case.
But I did want to respond to a few things.
Namely: "I wholeheartedly agree that we need more media by and for queer people! But I think you and I might have different definitions of what that means. To me, "by and for queer people" means... well, it was created by a queer person with queer people in mind. To me, that does not mean "wholesome, no problematic content allowed!"'
First let me say, YES, that's the definition I meant as well. Media created by a queer person with queer people in mind. That's exactly what I meant by that. Not "wholesome, no problematic content allowed!"' Not at all. And I'm not sure how else to say it.
I'm finding it hard to convince folks on here that just because I find the overuse of sexual violence in tv shows repulsive that I am not a Puritan, I'm not a moralist, (whatever that means), I'm not trying to police what other people watch, and that I only want to watch G rated stuff. Because that just ain't true. I watch some pretty kinky shit and enjoy the hell out of it. I am a full-grown adult, after all.
But there's a real difference between two CONSENTING adults (or more than two adults, frankly, I'm not here to judge) and what we've seen in this drama and what I've seen way too much of over the years. (Btw, I don't mind watching sexual activity between two consenting high school students either - as long as it's consenting.) I don't mind age gaps (as long as there isn't too much of a power imbalance), I don't mind infidelity (I don't love it but I'm not opposed to watching it either), and I think erotica, filmed well, can be absolutely stunningly beautiful. I am NOT a freaking prude like some other asshole commenter on here called me. But there is no convincing me that rape, and using a substance and a power trip to get what you want, is a good use of a storyline. Because I'll never agree.
" "BL is almost exclusively written by straight women." Are you saying they're straight women because they have identified themselves as straight, or are you assuming their sexuality based on the content they enjoy?"
I'm saying that historically BL's have been written by women (straight or closeted, as you quite rightly reminded me), for generally, a women's audience.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-05-26/boys-love-authors-discuss-the-impact-of-lgbt-awareness-on-bl/.146936
Academic scholar Akiko Mizoguchi has been researching this for twenty years and she says this: "historically, BL has been written by and for women, describing the genre as “women's fantasies.” However, she noted that this has been changing as BL's popularity has broadened beyond its initial niche status. It appears that rising LGBT acceptance in Japan has decreased the stigma associated with reading BL, especially for men. "
(I wish I could get the rest of her articles in English...)
These aren't by academics:
https://electricliterature.com/why-are-so-many-gay-romance-novels-written-by-straight-women/
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/yaoi-gay-manga-by-straight-women-for-straight-women/
Like I said earlier, I'm also interested in reading/watching the links you provided. I'm connected to a university so I'd like to see academic links as well, if possible. (I've been having trouble finding those so that would be helpful.)
I have read about the origins of the word "fujoshi" so the YouTube link you left will be interesting, I'm sure.
"It’s important to hear from actual BL fans themselves." I agree, of course! I have been reading a lot from BL fans, but also BL critics, who are also important to listen to.
Lastly (tonight), "Straight people aren't the only ones allowed to like bad things without it defining their sexuality." Again, I agree! I'm not sure how we got here. It could be that I'm not making myself clear enough, and I'll try to do that more tomorrow. Let me try a different way for now.
I hate when sexual assault is used as a plot point- on anyone. American soap operas have used that plot device for years and it's f*cking tired as hell by now. I don't want to see women getting sexually assaulted to move a plot forward or so she can then declare her love for her rapist (1980's General Hospital and Days of our Lives soap operas used this plot) and I don't want to see men getting sexually assaulted only to fall in love with their attacker either.
I'm curious how many people here would be ok with this HIStory storyline if one of the characters was a woman. I've actually heard a person say that assault is different when it's two men. And that's a person who watches a LOT of BL. That's scary. And wrong. And that, in my mind, has not as much to do with one's sexuality as with caring more about being entertained, no matter the cost. A remaining question for me is this: what does it say when straight people defend the use of rape in BL's because it's fun (for them) to watch?
The rest of your questions and comments I want to think about before I answer. Again, thank you for taking the time to comment.