chiffoncake

I try to put myself in Tar's and Tharn's shoes n see why they did not 'punish' Lhong... Tar's reasons I have already outlined in my previous reply... And I think Tharn's reason we know, he tells to type in ep12 ending scene, that he doesn't even want to look at Lhong's face anymore...

So we can conclude that Lhong permanently lost the one person he loved so much... not only that, he lost his reputation, he had to drop out so he lost his college friends... n he lost his band that was his joy... all these are good punishments too... though they may not be as severe as a jail term, they still are great losses for a guy who enjoyed music n considered Tharn as his bestie... just my thoughts on how Thai culture may work?

Thai people do seem to be a very tolerant culture (BL shows can never be made in the homophobic country I live!), so I wonder if foreign (non-Thai) viewers' natural outrage and expectation of a severe punishment may not be relevant in their shows? I am just thinking aloud here, sorry if I don't make much sense!

I agree abt Lhong. His arc needed a firmer resolution. I answered abt it in the post below this to Nanakor, may be you can read it if u want to know why I think Tar in his fragile state of mental health could not have gone on public record to file a case against Lhong, since he is the only person who could make Lhong go to prison.

Something to remember: Tharn is also a child s*xual abuse survivor just like Type. Canonically, Tharn was so traumatised by his first s*xual experience that he lost consciousness for a whole day and never again bottomed in his life. Early age seduction is also abuse. It's just that in Tharn's circle it was all so normalised that he became part of the problem - here I am so angry at Thorn! if it was Thanya who was seduced at 14 by San, would Thorn have stopped with a beating n still be friends with San? What double standards!

If Type's molestation at 11 changed him into a raging homophobic, Tharn being seduced at 14 turned him into a sexually aggressive moron... tbh they are both anti-heroes which is why this show has such polarised reviews (and I don't know why people often forgive Type while crucifying Tharn, they both are flawed charactars with bad pasts). Here is an interesting perspective on how a real world judge would rule Tharn's crime vs Types hate crimes in the earlier episodes - https://twitter.com/ramblingsofafan/status/1310575541037170688

And a thread by me https://twitter.com/chiffoncakehere/status/1310581425335414784

Thank you for your response, I agree with your perspective. A lot of evil people are mentally ill too, but of course not all of them can be rehabilitated, some of them could be ill beyond human help and as such they have to be imprisoned, in order to save others from them. As for Mame's decision reg Lhong's fate, I feel it is realistic.

According to real world law, Tar has to go on public record abt the crime if a criminal case needs to be built against Lhong; Tar has to state on subsequent trials what happened to him. Even though it'd be held as a private trial (since it's a g-r*pe case, not because Tar is a minor as he's not - age of consent in Thailand is 15, n he's older), the videotape will still be viewed as evidence by the judge, lawyers etc... Tar suffers from PTSD, he is so consumed with shame he doesn't even tell abt his r*pe to his stepbrother whom he trusts (he reveals this only in LBC which is set 3 years after TharnType climax) so trying to go on public record abt this could have severely affected him in a psychological level.

So to me it feels realistic that young survivors of s*xual crimes often don't press charges so that they can simply try to move on with their lives (this is true in my case too, sadly)... Though I wish reality was not like this - there ought to be a way where law can help young survivors of s*xual crimes in a sensitive manner while making sure wrongdoers like Lhong are legally admonished or monitored, at the very least. And yeah, having Lhong cry on his sister's shoulder or having Thorn to absolve him (in special episode) is too weak. If the show wanted to take route of 'forgive the sinner', at the very least, Lhong should been shown as apologising to Tar.

I completely agree.... therapy as a plot point shoud become canon in shows, it would be incredibly helpful in normalising medical attention requirement for non-physical ailments too. I am interested to know, though, why you want Lhong to be jailed - considering ur non-typical awareness abt therapy. Of course what Lhong did was a crime, he committed several ones, actually... but to me it looks like he belong to a psychaitric ward, not a prison ward. The things he did, they way he acted in ep 12 confrontation scene, no sane person could be that way, it is clear that he is severely mentally ill.

Here's a perspective about this that may make us think a bit more abt who will be judged as a criminal in a court of law: Tharn's nc sleep kiss or Type's hate crimes against a minority. https://twitter.com/ramblingsofafan/status/1310575541037170688

IKR! I even created a thread abt it, take a look :) https://twitter.com/chiffoncakehere/status/1310925070060134401

hey here is the twitter thread I was talking abt how the only predatory charactar I see in TharnType is Lhong n he may not even be gay - https://twitter.com/chiffoncakehere/status/1310925070060134401

This is a late reply but am posting it cos I agree with you. GQP realised a bit late in life that he is gay n believed that he missed the 'golden window' of falling in love with a suitable partner when he was young and making a future with him. Now he is a busy CEO with an image to maintain in society, so he was resigned to a life of random bar encounters. Someone like YY, young rich handsome n devoted to him and also sexually fulfilling and looking for a forever commitment from GQP, must have been very soothing. GQP is a very smart man - he must certainly be aware that his relationship with YY is basically due to Stockholm syndrome - but I think he accepted that reality because the possible alternative, to be single n lonely for the rest of life, must have been too scary. It was, to GQP, literally a case of choosing the lesser evil (and yes, YY belongs in jail or at least psychiatric ward IRL)

in case u r not aware of it, the novel is NSFW n very triggering. tc

hehe don't worry abt it, u r welcome

https://www.wattpad.com/story/118105081-beloved-enemy

nah its fine i created this account specifically to contribute to the discussion from a CSA survivor's point of view bcos i haven't seen much from my unfortunate moots... so no need to delete anything, these things need to be discussed in open and you did not hurt me, u shd see some of the hate mail i get on twitter as a supporter of TTTS :)

TW

This is a whole different discussion, but I can see your point that you consider a forced blowjob as rape. I consider it as sexual assault / molestation purely because of selfish motives... some CSA survivors are able to function and remain vertical only because they have this (admittedly mirage-like) consolation that they were at least not penetrative-raped as kids. By classifing every act of non consent as rape, it will be like taking away that blanket of self-preservation from us. So I have to shy away from embracing your definition of rape. Kindly excuse.

NOTE / TW: Type was not penetrative-raped in his childhood, since the perp tried to but "could not get in" as he was too small - this is clearly explained in the novel, during the Tharn-type intercourse scene where Type has a panic attack at the moment of entry and Tharn says he will stop (and Type says to continue, because he is sick of living in trauma).

I def do not mean to imply that what Type went through as a kid is less horrible just because he was not invaded, but just wanted to answer this as you specifically asked me on this.

In the show too, in ep 4 when Type talks about why he didn't call the police on those two seniors, he reveals how his neighbours at that time were commenting that "he should be grateful to have been spared with just this, as it could have been so much worse." This can be taken as proof that he was not raped, but I can also see why it is so gray. So many things are left gray in the show, which is one more reason we all have such mixed responses to it.

I completely agree that being too complex is one of the major failings of TharnType show (other being its ineffective use of the vital tool of dialogue, and, choosing not to include some key scenes from the novel on to the show) and that if it requires a Ph D to understand a tv show, then it failed as a medium of mass entertainment.  I had this same discussion in this page down somwhr, with members Warda08 and Bruh4Real, which you can refer to if you want to.

I am very aware that I saw TharnType with a specialist knowledge, i.e., as a CSA survivor myself so many of Tharn and Type's actions and interactions only cause sadness and understanding in me, not anger or wrath (I have been there, in their shoes, approaching life so wrongly because I learned all wrong lessons about sex and body image at a too young age). But not everyone has my advantage, and if I am an typical viewer, of course TT would look very problematic to me too. No wonder it gets so much hate.

Now you have jumped goal posts. I am talking about the shower scene. You are talking abt Ep 2, I think - that's the only scene I remember Type giving a clear no? When did Type LITERALLY say no in the bj scene? I will always agree that Tharn kisses his roomie mate non-consensually (Ep 1) and tries to assaults Type in Ep 2 (because that's the truth - he tries, but stops once he sees Type in tears). I will never agree that Type was 'forced' to have a BJ in Ep 3.

Type may be a complex, messed up SOB charactar with a traumatic past, but he is no fragile daffodil. His rage and hatred for gays has powered his violent persona for so long, Techno can attest to the fact. You think he didn't have enough strength to leave the shower room or place a karate chop on Tharn's throat? The room is not locked. Tharn is not even restricting him in any choke hold, his arms are on the wall. In Ep 9, Type kicks Tharn in the nuts for trying to force him to have sex in the bar's loo. Why didn't he do that in the shower scene?

Very simple. Type just had that water-sliding-down-tharn's-throat revelation that he finds Tharn attractive, he's curious about this guy whose touch he doesn't find repulsive, he kisses back (check it - three times) when Tharn kisses him in the shower and he wants to know what more was on the offer. Not all of us CSA survivors have war flashbacks on being approached sexually, you know.

Type was a free agent at all time to just slide out of Tharn's proximity and just leave the shower room. And don't tell me he couldn't because he was frozen in fear or some BS that anti-TTTSers usually cite. I know what frozen in fear means, I have been there, and this ain't it. What I see is: Type had just realised how much attracted he was to his room mate - the water bottle incident, the (unsuccessful) jerking off in the loo, the being silent n non-confronting even after knowing Tharn was soothing him in sleep - and Tharn notices him looking, and being a confident asshole, he makes a move, and Type responds to it. It's as simple as this.

I am sorry if this does not fit the narrative of what you think of as a abuse survivor's response to sexual advance from someone they find attracted to. As far as I see it - and I have seen the shower scene enough times to write a case study on it, including psychologists' input - Type ALLOWS Tharn to give him a BJ. There is a ocean of difference between 'allows' and 'forced'. See the episode properly and if you are capable of setting aside your pre-concieved judgements and do an objective analysis, you will realise what's actually happening in the shower scene.

On the other hand, if you tend to look at scenes in isolation and not in charactar/story context n background history, then no amount of time I spend explaining my point of view is going to be enuf. I find that TTTS haters are so pigeon-holed in their own (mostly projectional) narratives they will rather remain blind forever than see a different perspective. Kind of reminds me of a certain young man named Type who throws massive toddler tantrums and commits hate crimes at the first instance a man (Tharn) dares to challenge his pre-concieved notion that all gays are evil.

And oh god at all the pearl-clutching about TharnType having porn scenes. Have you even seen porn? If you are over 18 (assume u r a woman, by your name), I can send links if you need reference points. In most bed scenes in TTTS, the lead actors are fully clothed. There is not even one lewd sound like moaning or movement like hip thrusting when depicting the love scenes, as it is so trendy these days in popular western shows in netflix etc - the TTTS bed scenes are as tame as any you'd find in a show with heterosexual leads.

I always find it hilarious that people get so freaked out by two men kissing - with the exception of the shower scene, all the bed scenes in TharnType are just two people kissing. NOT PORN, lmao. It's one thing to dislike a show but quite another to accuse it of something it totally is not. Make judgements if you will, but after seeing all sides of the coin. Check out https://twitter.com/raikantopinisms/status/1279807313583337472 and https://twitter.com/raikantopinisms/status/1288882179708088321 if you really want to have an unbiased, mutually respectful discussion (Note: NC scenes means Not for Children scenes)

Raik, the owner of the above analysis threads, spoke to the show's production team, spent months analysing the show and makes a lot of interesting points. I spent three months de-constructing the whole show and just submitted a case study on it for my PG course. I can assure you that a lot of people who like the show are actually intelligent adults from both straight and LGBTQ community too, not just "13 year old horny cishets". However, if you just want to be heard and have no interest in listening to other perspectives, then we will stop here - good day.

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Personally I am tired of people using the word rape to define every altercation, I guess it gives them some kind of outlet for all the rage they feel internally. Type was not raped (he never was, even as a kid - it's very clear in the novel and show). Tharn is not a rapist, he of course is sexually aggressive in the first two episodes (a result of his abusive past - seduced at 14 is also child abuse), but he is NOT a rapist. Using the right terminology is important, rape is not an easy word to throw around just because it fits in your understanding of events. 

I am interested to know why you feel that the show didn't get homophobia right. Type is homophobic because he mislabeled a pedophilic (the guy who assaulted him when he was a kid) as gay and thus denied his own sexual identity. Tharn shows Type, through his actions and patience, that not all gays are evil. Type then makes huge progress by accepting the reality (that he was always gay), puts his childhood trauma behind him and enters into a relationship with Tharn, a man he has come to love and trust. This is what I get from the show. May I know what you got from the show?

As a queer Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) survivor myself, I find it sad that Type is always pigeon-holed into a victim box where the only emotion he is assigned to feel is 'fear' or 'repulsion'. Nobody wants to acknowledge the many signs of desire and attraction he had shown for Tharn just before and during the shower scene. Everyone is glad to ignore his agency as an adult interested in another adult, and pare him down to a one dimensional charactar that is only capable of hating sex and all sexual advances, just because he happens to be a CSA survivor.

I am completely mystified at all this outrage at a show dealing with trigger issues that, in real world, happen every second. Tar was indeed raped and his story is a difficult one; but I don't see why a TV drama should not have a charactar who is struggling with PTSD due to the rape, or a mentally ill charactar like Lhong. Should only those shows that are pure vanilla clouds in concept be allowed to exist? That'd be nice, of course, if we lived in Utopia. Me, I'd like to see shows that push boundaries, address real world problems and incite people to start a dialogue about everything humans typically shove under the carpet. Thanks to TTTS, people who never even had an idea about LGBTQ and child abuse issues are now talking abt them.

I respect your opinion. Personally I don't see anything wrong with tastefully done make out scenes, given that it's exactly what people do in a new relationship. And Tharn and Type are teenagers living in the same room and attracted to eo, so, blame their age and hormones, if you will, because they are going to make use of the opportunity of being dorm mates to have as much sex as possible. I would too, lol.

All the trigger issues you mention happen in real world. I wish they never did, but they do, and the only way to be prepared for them or to start a dialogue about them is by representation, not avoidance. I am happy there is a tv show that talks about these things without shying away from them. It makes my heart glad that the heroes of this show are abuse survivors, they tackle issues like PTSD and online bullying and the show itself has a happy ending for the damaged heroes, instead of killing them off or something.

As for fighting, well, both Tharn and Type are abuse survivors who do not know the concept of a healthy relationship. One uses his fist to communicate, the other uses his dick. Obviously their story will not be a bed of roses, their journey is all about how they recognise their flaws and learn to be better. We need more shows showing realistic struggles of trauma-affected couples, since there are already so many shows with cute scenes. (Seriously, though, you don't find the scenes of nose kisses and Tharn&Type just chilling out n arguing in their apt cute? They are!)

Actually, I am stunned that a show like TharnType can be hated just because it is not like other BL shows. It's the same kind of reasoning my parents used all my life ("Why can't I be like my sister!") and, if you think about, the basis of shaming prejudice and microaggression faced by the LGBTQ community itself.

You're right, this is not how people in a relationship should treat each other. You're also right that Type behaves this way due to his past trauma, if you notice, he does not hit his boyfriend Tharn alone, he also hits his bestie Techno everytime he gets angry, i.e., the more he loves a person, the more he hits them. In this way he is like a child whose emotions overwhelm him so much he cannot control himself (have you seen toddlers get so mad they just start hitting their parents?) and uses his fists to speak, rather than words.

Type has never been in a relationship, and has no idea how to show, recieve or respect love in the right way. He hates gays (he mislabels pedophiles as gay) since it was a man who abused him as a kid. So admitting his attraction to a man and then giving up a beautiful woman to be with Tharn is a very huge change for Type. From hating even the word 'gay' for ten years, he has progressed to living with one, not to mention loving him too, in a matter of mere months. So at this point in the show, Type's mind is in quiet chaos (kinda like a war between his new, better self vs his old, homophobic self) processing all this metamorphosis, even though we viewers cannot see it. That's why he acts so bipolar...

It is easy to dismiss Type as a violent moron, but the truth is he is an abuse survivor who, with Tharn as the main catalyst, conquers his innermost fears (for eg, when he asks Tharn to sleep with him, then later is brave enough to accept that he prefers men over women) and reclaims his real identity. TharnType always will be Type's story, the archetypal 'hero's journey', where he will have to learn how to use his love for Tharn (and Tharn's love for him) to be on the path to sexual awakening, psychological healing/freedom from past trauma, self acceptance and a more authentic way of living. I have analysed his charactar more in detail in the posts below, feel free to check them out.

And Type does get better... SPOILER.....he does something amazingly selfless in the end of TTTS and in LBC1 (set three years after TTTS) he is a totally different charactar, patient and a sort of mentor to younger students in his college.