Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
yeah we have been at it all week, so we should take a break, lol. I absolutely get your point and respect your opinion, and also stupidly glad that you can see my perspective too. I don't have any agenda here to force people to like TTTS, ofc nobody should interfere with that freedom, and I know I have been writing essays all week in this thread which is probably very tedious to read.... I guess all I am hoping for, from my posts, is for people to watch the show without looking at it as just a normal enemy-t0-lovers trope and then judge, rather than stop in ep1 and then tell others not to watch the show. Right now I am so happy TTTS got many awards yday at KAZZ, so I am in partying mood with my moots :) Good day to you too! And hey no need for the spoiler warning, for all my obsession with TTTS, my fav BL show is TRAPPED! If you think I am passionate abt TTTS, you shd see me how quickly I turn into a werewolf when I see anybody hating on Tang Yi and Shao Fei lol.
Sadly, there is no Techno in TTTS2 bcos Techno and Kengla are one of the main couples in LBC 2 which is releasing…
I read Mame interview online that since she is the creator of the LBC universe, she could not let actors overlap in both shows as it will be too confusing, since two different actors play the role of Techno (that's why LBC2 is airing in Sept and TTTS2 is airing in Nov). May be Mild is doing like a guest appearance briefly? We shall find out soon. I may be wrong too, I read the interview as a translated twitter thread.
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
I ramble so much so you probably might prefer to read some concise, well-researched twitter threads like these (Raik actually spoke to the production team), that analyse this show far more efficiently than I could ever!
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
Thank you too bruh for trusting me and indulging me in this discussion, I know it is not easy to talk about things that are not one's favourite. I made this account specifically so that I could share my thoughts on TTTS from a CSA perspective. I am so, so sorry to hear about your bad experience in college. It is absolutely terrible when the other person does not listen to us during moments of intimacy, and I am sorry again that it has affected you negatively. I really hope you are in a better place now.
I think I was not clear in my previous posts - when I mention the term 'abuse survivor', I always mean childhood abuse survivor, since that's what I am and I identify Type as a CSA survivor. I have not had the misfortune to be experience sexual abuse in my adulthood, so I cannot speak about it - so I apologise if my previous posts were confusing. To me, Tharn and Type's sexual preference (i.e. men/women) is natural. It is their abusive pasts in childhood that mainly shape their charactar and entire overniew of life, so to me TTTS is the story of two CSA survivors, I don't see it as a primarily 'gay' story (I mean no offence by saying this).
I also did not specifically mean you when I talked about how Type can enjoy being a bottom, these are comments I saw on YT, twitter etc. Your question "why did Type wanted to have sex with someone who triggered the trauma" is a valid one. As an isolated question, it completely makes sense. I can see that this is what puzzles and angers viewers the most, that Type is following a 'enemies to lovers' fanfiction trope when in real life, assault survivors would rather drink acid than fall in love with their attackers.
This is why I feel Tharn, the other hero of this story, ought not be judged as an assaulter, but rather as a teenaged abuse survivor just like Type, bumbling through his attempts to learn the right way of loving another person romantically and sexually. We naturally draw parallels between ourselves and what's unfolding on the screen, so I guess it helps to see the situation contextually in shows like TTTS, taking in consideration the entire history of Tharn and Type from the minute they met.
Type and Tharn were on the road to a deep friendship in the three weeks they were roomies, before Techno tells Type that his roomie is gay (I think its 3 months in the novel, not sure why the time period was shortened in the show). During that time, Type really likes Tharn - he cannot stop praising him. So when he learns about Tharn being gay, it sends him into a tailspin. Not just because he is homophobic, but also bcos Type is (without realising himself) so disappointed as his budding friendship in Tharn is now shattered, he can no longer bask in the warm, charismatic aura of Tharn.
That's the same reason Tharn has such difficulty accepting Type's rejection. Tharn is a confident, out gay who is strong and unafraid of people. He could have reported Type's hate crime to the authorities. That could have solved the problem once for all - Type would have gotten his separate room (or well-deserved repurcussion for being homophobic) and Tharn could have just lived in peace. Why didn't Tharn do it? Because by that point Tharn too was half way in love with his room mate, and he didn't want to let go of him. Especially when he comes to know of Type's nightmares, Tharn's 'giver/nurturer' tendencies take over and he does everything he can, including politically incorrect measures, to persuade Type to return his affections, and being so accepting of Type's every imperfection.
In ep 4, Type asks, "You are begging a scumbag like me?". He knows himself that he is an asshole. This makes it clear that Type thinks he doesn't deserve to be loved, not only because of his past abuse shame but also bcos he KNOWS he is an unreasonable homophobic. So the fact that Tharn keeps on saying he likes Type and GOES ON TO PROVE that he likes him - these two are different things, it's very easy to say the words but to follow it up with action is solid proof - by publicly apologizing to those two seniors that he was sexually aggressive with Type n triggerred him, and generally being cute (getting him food, talking nicely with him even when Type replies back rudely), tips the balance to his favour.
Bcos for CSA survivors, unconditional acceptance is EVERYTHING. I think this is why Type finally 'gets' and gives in to the concept that if he can forget the gender thing, the world would open up new things for him... he samples the brand of Tharn's love and care, he sees how healing (not to mention sexually fulfilling!) it is to be with a person who accepts him with all his faults and decides that's enough for him at present, he doesn't want to look for it outside again when he already has it good.
Well, that's true for everyone, right! All humans wants to be loved without judgement or conditions, but from a CSA survivor point of view, I can say it means a fuckin lot to us, when we find that we can trust a person with our shame and they don't mind that we were damaged goods from our childhood. I apologise if these words are triggering, but in spite of years of therapy (as an adult), I still have moments where I think this way, the shame and guilt never goes away completely. My current partner became mine only because of their kindness and acceptance of me with all my flaws, even though we both are very different people. Relationships are always works in progress, we all come with individual pluses and minuses and make do with what we have in hand, we just keep learning and educating eo and taking notes not to repeat mistakes.
I also thought a lot about your comment on how sex is the major glue that brings type and tharn together. It is certainly true. The foundation of their bonding grew from sex - or, to be precise, Type's physical attraction to a person he ought to have hated and Tharn's desperateness to cling on to Type with the only 'weapon' he had - and I can see that it can be a very unsettling idea, since we are usually conditoned to think that sex is not as important as 'love', that having a sex-intensive relationship - or to prefer having a sexual relationship over a romantic one - is not 'right'.
I don't agree to that. It's always a puzzle to me that we are taught about distant planets and obscure theories at school, but not about things that matter most to us on a visceral level, like intimacy. Humans are physical beings - babies can die if deprived of their mother's skin heat - and a healthy relationship will always include a good amount of sex that makes both partners happy. And sometimes, for some, sex can be the path they take to get to a place of understanding. For me too, sex became the first languages I'd use in romantic r'ships bcos, sadly, it was a (wrong) lesson I learned very young, that my body can be used as barter or currency.
(SPOILER FROM NOVEL: Tharn and Type do get to that place of understanding, eventually. They are still together 7 years from the time they met as roomies, and according to the book, they are together for 40 years until Tharn dies of a heart attack when he is 60.)
I work in a field where I get to talk with people about intimacy and relationships, and a key theme we explore is that sex is as important a part of a good relationship as love, trust and respect is. That said, ofc I also agree that people should first know eo via a healthy channel of communication, either through a good friendship or dating, and then have sex, because otherwise too may things can go wrong. No shade to ONstanders (as long as its consensual it's totally fine), but in my experience, sex in a relationship without mutual respect, affection and trust can only have sad results.
I wish Type and Tharn had a chance to know about eo normally - actually they did have that, for those initial three weeks! - but in the TTTS show, with that plot, it was not possible. As the show began and progressed, we all see that Type was in deep denial, Tharn would not take no for an answer, and the only place they could meet mid way was sex. It was the only tool these two damaged people had in their immature hands to work with, to begin with, to get to a place of understanding. If physical touch was the only way for Type to overcome his stubborn prejudice and start his healing process - bcos, while Type's mind was homophoic, but his body was not! - and Tharn held that key to do that job, I could get on board with that.
End of the day they both are fictional characters brought together by an author, so I am okay with letting her tell the story and just giving me an opportunity to dissect it to pieces. Thanks again bruh4real for your very polite and understanding reply above. I am so glad you are willing to read my essays!
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
you asked "Type's first time with a male after his childhood experience he didn't show any sign of trauma. They just went straight into sex which makes no sense at all if he was still traumatized." I'm writing this reply assuming that you're asking this as someone who is not an abuse survivor (I am very sorry if I assumed wrong) and you have some pre-conceived notions on how an abuse survivor will behave during sex.
I thought a lot on how to answer your question, english is not my first language so i apologise right away if this post sounds blunt, i am just trying to my best to answer this from my experience. Trigger Warning: Some of my post with contain TMI, but I think it's necessary at this point, to shatter this notion once for all, that a traumatic experience in the past will always cause trauma in the future too, in similar situation.
A past involving sexual abuse can ofc screw up a person, but it doesn't make them damaged goods, totally unable to enjoy the intimate parts of life. I obviously won't dare to speak for the entire community of abuse survivors (because we are not all cut from the same cloth), but I can tell you that not all of us fall apart at the first instance of having sex (with any gender). It is true that sex is a not an easy topic for childhood abuse survivors, but it's also true that lot of us have no problem enjoying or having sex, including rough play (Ep 12, Tharn to Type: "You usually like pain.").
Ep 4 is not the first time Type has sex - it's just his first time with a man. It's reasonable for viewers to feel worried at this, after all Type was assaulted by a man. But Type is no longer a kid - this time, physically at least he is an adult who already experienced sex before, he asked for consensual sex from Tharn (after thinking about it, with his peculiar logic), he waited all day for tharn to answer positively to his proposal, he was prepared for it (he chooses a weekend when nearby rooms would be empty!)... so the chances of Type having a panic attack during sex with a man are low, as his actions make it clear he was well-adjusted with the idea.
(NOTE: In the novel, Type DOES have a panic attack. Type was not raped by the abuser, since the perp tried to but "could not get in". So at the moment of intercourse when Tharn tries to go in, Type cries out in panic and Tharn says, "look at me, I am tharn, I am not your abuser, we don't have to do this if you don't want to" and Type replies, "no I want to continue." This is a very crucial point in Type's life: this is where he conquers his fear of the past and decides to proceed on, because he is sick of living in fear. In the tv series, they don't show this scene which is a pity, but I also understand that decision bcos it'd have opened a whole big can of worms, and the team already had enough issues to deal with.)
So... let's get a bit more personal. My past is not exactly similar to Type since I was not kidnapped or violently assaulted but it was still around same age as him and by a trusted person, so I'm fairly sure I'm not appropriating by speaking about this. Again not dismissing other CSA survivors' experiences, but in my case, despite being violated several times in my childhood, I had no agonising PTSD during my first and also subsequent consensual sexual experiences, even tho I had no therapy at that time (but Type did - according to Mame, he misses 6 months of school for recovery and therapy, and that's why he is older than Tharn).
My point is - it's not always a given that people with abusive pasts will respond badly to sex, or show trauma. I keep seeing comments like, but Type was abused as a kid by a man, how can he enjoy being a bottom, or how can he enjoy sex with a man. Oh boy. Where do I start with addressing this? Sexual preferences are not dictated by past experiences, they are fluid, they can be varied and exist as a separate entity, exclusive of a violated past. Not all abuse survivors will have war flashbacks or start shivering when being touched - no matter how many movies out there depict this! - because life buffers us in many ways, and most of us are great in adapting (at times, in pretending). We *have* to, to survive.
Healing, denial, PTSD - they take many forms. They manifest in many ways - not just sexually, not just in a straight line from point A to B. It is entirely possible for an abuse survivor to enjoy sex and act normally at that time, without any after effects... and completely lose his shit over a misplaced wallet two weeks later. In my case, I had no issues with being touched intimately but I did have a lot of other PTSD responses, mostly outside the bedroom - I cannot tolerate the dark, I am a neat freak, I tend to ditch people if they got too clingy to me, I can be violent if someone tries to step inside my space without warning me.
The series also shows Type unraveling, in subtle ways. He does show trauma after sex with Tharn - only, it is part of healing process, not part of festering process. Healing process also involves pain, as any surgery patient will tell you. Whatever Type had thought of gays and of his own sexual preference before, for the past 19 years, is now completely shattered because he has taken the right steps towards reclaiming his true identity back, and this kind of self-realisation act always has the opposite side (his old, disease-filled self) fighting back.
If you carefully analyse the ep 5 and 6 scenes, it's clear Type is confused af and appalled at himself for being unable to honour his promise of 'One time Only'. He has no self control when it comes to Tharn and that completely messes up his mind ("Why am I buying all this sprite even tho I don't want to make up with him?"). Type asks for a no-emotion involved eff buddy commitment from Tharn, but is irritated when he actually gets it. He is annoyed at the football field when Techno talks about Tharn moving on from Type (that's why he kicks the ball far, and makes Techno run for it!). In the novel, it is clear he is not able to focus on his studies too.
So, yes, the traumatic after effects of Type sleeping with Tharn ARE there - they just are not sexual in nature, they are more emotional. His old self wants to cling to its old homophobic ideas ("I am not gay, bcos I am sleeping with a man only for sex without emotional involvement") and how he should behave as a man ("I have to find and date a nice gal like Puifai, it will cancel out the fact that I like having sex with a man"). That's why he acts like a prick in ep 6.
I can see, tho, how this is all so subtle that it is easy to miss this. I have to thank you again, bruh, because now I'll be making two twitter threads - one about this too.
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
I am glad I got to discuss about TTTS with discerning viewers like you. I feel forums like these should be used for meaningful sharing of perspectives, and not just for blanket, black&white statements (when it comes to understanding any piece of art). I will reply about the ep 4 trauma/sex part a bit later bcos I have some thoughts abt it that I need to think longer and write... but I can say right away that they went straight to sex bcos 1) it's the only common language they have, and 2) Type wants to have sex with Tharn, bcos he is damn curious.
You are right about the execution bit. TTTS, imo, has achieved a lot, but it also has slipped up a lot. As you said, the series struck gold in its casting (especially the insanely-attractive main leads who seemed to have undergone method acting training to portray Tharn and Type, and it shows!), and its direction and camera work is very good given its limited budget, but they have not properly used the vital tool of dialogue. For eg, the flustercluck explanation of 'I don't want to owe you so I will have sex with you one time' dialogue.
In the novel, it makes so much more sense - Type is scolded by Techno that if he keeps behaving like a homophobe all his life, his future won't be good. Type then spends some days thinking about that... like, what will happen if he gets a gay boss at work, then his daily life will be intolerable (in the show it looks like overnight Type decides to sleep with Tharn, sigh)... so Type does some self-reflection, and remembers that while he hated those two seniors' touch, he does not feel repulsed by Tharn's touch, he even likes it!
In Type's mind, Tharn seems to have some magic skill which chases away his nightmares merely by touching him, so Type decides, in his peculiar logic, to sleep with him and see if Tharn can cure him of his homophobia. Whoever decided not to include this part in the tv show, I'd like to have a strong word with them. They seem to have sacrificed scenes like this for the sake pf pacing (one of the strongest points of the show is its pacing). I also think that a mix of budget concerns (the author could not find sponsors for the show so had to invest her own money to make season 1) and the mercurial nature of filming schedule prevented the production team to polish the script to its best form. Not an excuse, but there it is.
Sorry, I said I won't continue, but I'm rambling again bcos I want to specifically add this here - I keep forgetting that I watched TTTS with insider's knowledge. If I wasn't a childhood abuse survivor myself, many of Type's actions would have seemed completely clownish and outlandish to me, too. TTTS should have spent some time on its script to make it less complex. Somewhere down this page, I had a discussion with MDL member Warda08 about how a show cannot be a successful medium of mass entertainment if it requires deep analyses and specialist knowledge in order to unearth its real meaning/message. In that way, yes, TTTS has failed. Much as I love the show for just existing for representing a minority like me, I have to accept this.
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
Oh yeah Type was always gay. The opening scene of ep 1 - who brings up a handsome room mate as focal point in his self intro? Type needed no help to get laid, he is confident of his good looks (he knew right away puifai was interested in him, in that restaurant scene in ep 5), so it was only a excuse about having tharn as a wingman... in the novel this is even more hilarious, entire prologue is type praising his room mate's good looks and generosity and what not lol
Even if he hated gays, all Type had to do was ignore tharn or move out but he never does. He also repeatedly turns down champ's offer to switch rooms... And when he gets drunk, he climbs into tharn's bed and falls asleep there, and doesn't get up even when techno begs him to (ep 1)! If this is not the biggest freudian slip I don't know what is. There are further clues too - Type cannot get off by watching p*rn anymore, he knows tharn is soothing him with physical touches every night but he does nothing to stop it, etc etc
The biggest clowning is ofc the "have sex with me cos I dont wanna owe you" offer - in ep 4, tharn says he likes Type, he will do everything to get his attention becos he wants to sleep with him but not right now, he will wait until the time is right to sleep with type but type could not wait! he got a taste of the bj and needed the D right now 5555555. Jokes apart, of course there are more deep-rooted reasons for this... which is clear in the novel, and not properly adapted into the show. I'll reply separately abt this.
I feel, in this show at least, we cannot always go with what Type says, because he has no idea what he wants, he is one of the most confused charactars ever (and with good reason). So we as viewers have to watch the story unfold, connect all dots n clues given in each scene and decide on ourselves as whats really happening... and this is only as good as how skilled or invested the viewer is to do such detective work! If viewer is not arsed enough to do that (no fault of theirs - we usually look at shows to get entertained, not educated), no wonder this show is hated so much
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
I respect your opinion, bruh, and good for you for replying politely. Not many do when I discuss about TTTS, I usually get a lot of abuse in the process! So, thanks for that. Of course I will always agree with you that it is never ever ever right to sexually OR physically assault anybody - in my eyes both Type and Tharn are problematic and this is the story of two assholes with abusive pasts,which obviously is not going to be a bed of roses and as such I am prepared to see their tale unfold in all its ugliness.
Lack of communication - I get your point, this show does not use the tool of dialogue properly (like, say, LBC where the discussions between Ae and Pete are so heartwarming). Honestly, though, in real life people are the same way too; they screw up their lives because either they talk too much or don't talk at all when they should have talked (and this is especially true for childhood abuse survivors and those with mental health issues), so I don't see it as a crime when lack of communication is used as a plot point in a show.
As for people learning wrong things from a show, I already answered about it to member Tufan in this same thread, it's below somewhere (in short: impressionable minds or young people should respect the 18+ rating and not watch this or any show that's too mature for them to analyse). I think we have said all we want to say about it to eo, in fact I have been rambling way too much :)
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
one more thing that bothers me is that people as young as 12 are watching tharntype (realised this from some youtube comments)... the series is 18+ rating, it deals so subtly with certain inflammatory issues that even mature minds can miss it, and of course it has its problematic elements too about key issues, so I wish teens do not watch the show until they are mentally and physically prepared to.
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
that's very true. Popular mediums like books and shows/movies do help a lot in understanding about an issue that otherwise we will not know from proper channels but, well, this educational experience usually is and should be incidental, not mandatory. TTTS never promised to be a role model in educating the public about LGBTQ or abusive r'ships - none of these commercially made shows promise that, it's us viewers who have certain expectations and are disappointed when they are not met. Personally, I am happy with the way the show already touches topics like abuse, online bullying, PTSD manifestation, unconditional acceptance, internalised homophobia, mental health issues (the decision to not send Lhong to jail - most controversial but also realistic - the show walked the talk of tolerance). I am speaking about TTTS to people who otherwise have no clue about queer issues... discussions are happening about consent, ptsd, proper way of approaching an abused person's trust etc all because of this show. The point of any piece of art is to start a dialogue and make progress from a place of darkness towards light, and I think TTTS has achieved it.
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
you bring up a good point. I tend to only look at what's being told to me on one medium because otherwise where does the line end? As consumers we may have zillion expectations and it's simply not possible for any product - especially a product that was made in the first place for entertainment, and not for education - to fulfill all that in one sweep. In any case I feel we cannot over-burden a single show with the duty of educating or representing for an entire world. I completely get what you mean... but I personally feel that such an education should start at home, or in school. This guidance should come from fellow humans, it should not fall on a show to teach me about boundaries or protecting myself from predators - it should come from my close, face to face human community. For eg, parents still don't talk about safe sex or dating basics with their kids. A show can never properly do the duty that is already neglected by a close circle.
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
oh i have no idea about the background of the writer or the history of the book, I haven't really googled about it for fear of bias, so I have restricted myself to just analysing what I saw and read. I know and you know that Type's past is bad, but Tharn does not know it - this is not an excuse for his actions, I am merely trying to see how the stage is set for that scene. Tharn probably only has a very vague idea something is wrong with Type (based on his nightmares) but like any 19 year old he has no clue of the extent of it and he allows his hormones to take over that concern. He only saw his room mate looking at him so hungrily as he drank from that water bottle, and decided to make a move (he is an out gay who had nothing to lose). Again, not an excuse, but a deconstruction of the scene. I guess I am more forgiving because I see Tharn and Type as two clueless moronic teens with wrong foundation and abusive pasts. I'm also lookin forward to S2, let's see how much these boneheads have matured.
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
hey I ofc get what you mean, that scene is also ambiguous when you look at it because type says 'let me go,' which Tharn ignores (I have a theory about this which I will say later, too long to go here). In this situation context is also important, I feel. Tharn and Type here are both 19ish, young adults with not much sensitivity training or maturity in life. Type is battling identity crisis and a growing attraction to his room mate. Tharn learned about sex from being seduced, and would never understand the nuances of non-verbal consent - at all cases, and in this scene especially, a verbal no was vital to establish firm boundaries. If the person in Type's shoes doesn't give that, then everything gets muddy.
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
That's the whole problem, I think. Unless you or me are Type, with his exact past experience of childhood abuse trauma (which is really, awfully different from experiencing abuse as an adult) and his mental dilemma reg tharn n his sexual identity and his whole crisis at that moment where he is fighting many demons in his mind, we cannot really proclaim ourselves as the best judge of how Type feels, based on our own standards of shoulds and should nots, can we? I wish I can figure out the whole screenshots thingy so that I can get my twitter post up soon! I feel I can have a better conversation about the shower scene with it.
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
I agree totally that Tharn and Type's relationship starts unhealthily. It's toxic, to be sure. That's their journey, in S1. We can't have a pretty neat cute perfect story with two abuse survivors as main leads. One was assaulted at 11, one was seduced at 14, both have their crosses to bear and the story is about how they both err, learn, heal and grow together. That's how relationships also progress in real world, especially with abuse survivors (sorry to bring this point again and again, but arrrrgggghhhh it does my head in when people don't acknowledge the abused backgrounds of our heroes, and expect them to act normally like everyone, and to be perfect from step 1)... human beings are flawed, we don't jump into a relationship as fully perfect beings, we go in with lots of scars and pre-existing baggage and then gradually learn to live with each other. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a liar.
I honestly don't understand this criticism. How is the show depicting gays as predatory? TTTS gave us one of the…
I unfortunately have non-consensual experience in my life, and that has helped me to look in-depth while analysing similar situations and my answer is and will always be - I do not see the shower scene as non-consensual. I don't see Tharn holding or restricting Type's hands (Tharn's hands are on the wall) or putting him on a choke hold so that Type cannot escape the room. I also don't hear Type saying no at any point, he was free at all times to leave the place - and he doesn't. I have a lot to say about this shower scene so I am making a twitter thread about it with screenshots, I will share the link once I am done with it. It's good there are many dialogue about this scene, it's always better to discuss and see many viewpoints, that's the only way we all can learn from eo.
Several stories with complex subjects that still explores the relationship between Type and Tharn. So much happens…
Sadly, there is no Techno in TTTS2 bcos Techno and Kengla are one of the main couples in LBC 2 which is releasing around the same time this year (Oct-Nov). You should read the novel if you want more of Techno.
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
So, I always thought Type was gay, from the beginning. I formed this opinion based on what I saw of Type's charactarisation throughout the show. There are lots of clues abt this, which are easy to miss if one is not careful.
The show opens with Type saying how handsome his room mate is. Like which straight person says that repeatedly about their own gender? He sees Kom after a long gap and first thing he says is how handsome he is now. He is almost robotic when talking about his girlfriends, and has outdated ideas about sexual pleasure (inspite of having had sex before with women). He knew Tharn was touching his face in the night (soothing his nightmares) but he does't stop it or confronts him about it. He cannot stop having sex with Tharn because he bloody likes it, to the point of rejecting a woman right when he is in bed with her.
Bottom line (yikes, no pun!)? Type likes boys. He just never gave himself permission to even consider it, because of his past.
Type is not a reliable narrator. He says he will never sleep with Tharn. Then he says he will sleep with him one time only. Then he says as long as its just sex his saturdays are free... then it becomes sex friends, casual lovers, etc etc. So we cannot fully believe him when he says "I only want to sleep with Tharn." Anybody who says "I can never sleep with women again," well, that epiphany didn't happen overnight....
Based on the novel and the show, my opinion is Type has always been gay. It's just that his poor traumatised child mind mis-labeled pedophilia as gay, and buried everything under that wrong label. That's why I said internalised homophobia.
About Type magically get cured of his PTSD... no, that's not how it happens in the novel and I think the show with its limited bandwidth also was not able to depict that efficiently. In any case, PTSD cannot be 'cured'. There is no 'cure' for abuse-related MH issues simply because memories cannot be erased, one has to learn to exist along with them forever. From personal experience I can say that's why there is no permanent cure for PTSD but it can be managed with minimum damage. And it DOES help to have an understanding partner who can doesn't run away in fear or disgust at having to be with a person with an abusive past. It helps a LOT.
Abuse survivors, even after having therapy or medication, often live in eternal shame and fear that they are unworthy of love, that once someone learns about their 'tainted' past, they will leave them or be disgusted with them. It won't be a stretch to say that Type probably had this fear too, since shame plays a big role in abuse survivors' life choices. Tharn completely shatters this fear, in ep 4. He shows no disgust when Type reveals his past trauma to him, and in fact keeps saying he likes Type even after Type tells him he'd never go out with him. That's why Tharn manages to capture Type's cold and scarred heart, or at least that's what I believe.
Bruh4real some points in your post are very true, I am disgusted with how the BL industry hires straight actors…
I don't know what to say about you feeling that Type being 1-D because it leaves me stunned... to me he's one of the most complex, intriguing charactars I have seen in BL shows (I think I have seen most of the classic ones). From a selfish, violent, homophobic asshole, Type changes into a person who reclaims his sexual identity without being in denial too much (poor Pui Fai! On her birthday too!), is willing to tell others that he now loves a man, and even goes to the extent of sacrificing his love to make sure that his loved one is not harmed (and gets a choice to go back to his last love). Not sure how much more he can possibly evolve in 12 episodes!
Communication issues.... well, duh. Type uses his hands so that he didn't have to use his brain or words ("hit first, speak last"). Tharn uses his dick and his niceness to make sure he will never be left alone ("nobody stops with one time with me"). They of course had communication problems, that's the point? The whole story is abt how they grow as mature people when they become a couple, and learn from eo?
As for why Tharn loves Type... I have some theories about this, but my first disclaimer would be - This is a question nobody can have a solid answer. Why do we feel attracted to some one? Even long term couples cannot articulate why they first fell in love with their SO, because you don't always fall in love after ticking a list.
That said, according to the novel and the show scenes, it looks like Tharn is a 'giver' - he likes taking care of his loved ones, and vulnerable Type with his trauma appealed to his fixer upper profile - and Type, with his past trauma, is a 'reciever' or, to put it more harshly, a taker (the hole in his soul is so huge that he needs unlimited, unconditional love and patience) and thus they both fullfill eo's deficit and fit each other like a puzzle piece. Probably not a good explanation, but who said love is logical?
Abt NC17 / sex scenes in TTTS
https://twitter.com/raikantopinisms/status/1288882179708088321
Analysis on why TTTS is different and what it contributed to the world of BL series.
https://twitter.com/raikantopinisms/status/1247329425907011584
Does TTTS romanticise non-consent and sexual assault?
https://twitter.com/vivgetsherbread/status/1288981000110977024
Master list of TTTS criticism threads
https://twitter.com/raikantopinisms/status/1279807313583337472
I think I was not clear in my previous posts - when I mention the term 'abuse survivor', I always mean childhood abuse survivor, since that's what I am and I identify Type as a CSA survivor. I have not had the misfortune to be experience sexual abuse in my adulthood, so I cannot speak about it - so I apologise if my previous posts were confusing. To me, Tharn and Type's sexual preference (i.e. men/women) is natural. It is their abusive pasts in childhood that mainly shape their charactar and entire overniew of life, so to me TTTS is the story of two CSA survivors, I don't see it as a primarily 'gay' story (I mean no offence by saying this).
I also did not specifically mean you when I talked about how Type can enjoy being a bottom, these are comments I saw on YT, twitter etc. Your question "why did Type wanted to have sex with someone who triggered the trauma" is a valid one. As an isolated question, it completely makes sense. I can see that this is what puzzles and angers viewers the most, that Type is following a 'enemies to lovers' fanfiction trope when in real life, assault survivors would rather drink acid than fall in love with their attackers.
This is why I feel Tharn, the other hero of this story, ought not be judged as an assaulter, but rather as a teenaged abuse survivor just like Type, bumbling through his attempts to learn the right way of loving another person romantically and sexually. We naturally draw parallels between ourselves and what's unfolding on the screen, so I guess it helps to see the situation contextually in shows like TTTS, taking in consideration the entire history of Tharn and Type from the minute they met.
Type and Tharn were on the road to a deep friendship in the three weeks they were roomies, before Techno tells Type that his roomie is gay (I think its 3 months in the novel, not sure why the time period was shortened in the show). During that time, Type really likes Tharn - he cannot stop praising him. So when he learns about Tharn being gay, it sends him into a tailspin. Not just because he is homophobic, but also bcos Type is (without realising himself) so disappointed as his budding friendship in Tharn is now shattered, he can no longer bask in the warm, charismatic aura of Tharn.
That's the same reason Tharn has such difficulty accepting Type's rejection. Tharn is a confident, out gay who is strong and unafraid of people. He could have reported Type's hate crime to the authorities. That could have solved the problem once for all - Type would have gotten his separate room (or well-deserved repurcussion for being homophobic) and Tharn could have just lived in peace. Why didn't Tharn do it? Because by that point Tharn too was half way in love with his room mate, and he didn't want to let go of him. Especially when he comes to know of Type's nightmares, Tharn's 'giver/nurturer' tendencies take over and he does everything he can, including politically incorrect measures, to persuade Type to return his affections, and being so accepting of Type's every imperfection.
In ep 4, Type asks, "You are begging a scumbag like me?". He knows himself that he is an asshole. This makes it clear that Type thinks he doesn't deserve to be loved, not only because of his past abuse shame but also bcos he KNOWS he is an unreasonable homophobic. So the fact that Tharn keeps on saying he likes Type and GOES ON TO PROVE that he likes him - these two are different things, it's very easy to say the words but to follow it up with action is solid proof - by publicly apologizing to those two seniors that he was sexually aggressive with Type n triggerred him, and generally being cute (getting him food, talking nicely with him even when Type replies back rudely), tips the balance to his favour.
Bcos for CSA survivors, unconditional acceptance is EVERYTHING. I think this is why Type finally 'gets' and gives in to the concept that if he can forget the gender thing, the world would open up new things for him... he samples the brand of Tharn's love and care, he sees how healing (not to mention sexually fulfilling!) it is to be with a person who accepts him with all his faults and decides that's enough for him at present, he doesn't want to look for it outside again when he already has it good.
Well, that's true for everyone, right! All humans wants to be loved without judgement or conditions, but from a CSA survivor point of view, I can say it means a fuckin lot to us, when we find that we can trust a person with our shame and they don't mind that we were damaged goods from our childhood. I apologise if these words are triggering, but in spite of years of therapy (as an adult), I still have moments where I think this way, the shame and guilt never goes away completely. My current partner became mine only because of their kindness and acceptance of me with all my flaws, even though we both are very different people. Relationships are always works in progress, we all come with individual pluses and minuses and make do with what we have in hand, we just keep learning and educating eo and taking notes not to repeat mistakes.
I also thought a lot about your comment on how sex is the major glue that brings type and tharn together. It is certainly true. The foundation of their bonding grew from sex - or, to be precise, Type's physical attraction to a person he ought to have hated and Tharn's desperateness to cling on to Type with the only 'weapon' he had - and I can see that it can be a very unsettling idea, since we are usually conditoned to think that sex is not as important as 'love', that having a sex-intensive relationship - or to prefer having a sexual relationship over a romantic one - is not 'right'.
I don't agree to that. It's always a puzzle to me that we are taught about distant planets and obscure theories at school, but not about things that matter most to us on a visceral level, like intimacy. Humans are physical beings - babies can die if deprived of their mother's skin heat - and a healthy relationship will always include a good amount of sex that makes both partners happy. And sometimes, for some, sex can be the path they take to get to a place of understanding. For me too, sex became the first languages I'd use in romantic r'ships bcos, sadly, it was a (wrong) lesson I learned very young, that my body can be used as barter or currency.
(SPOILER FROM NOVEL: Tharn and Type do get to that place of understanding, eventually. They are still together 7 years from the time they met as roomies, and according to the book, they are together for 40 years until Tharn dies of a heart attack when he is 60.)
I work in a field where I get to talk with people about intimacy and relationships, and a key theme we explore is that sex is as important a part of a good relationship as love, trust and respect is. That said, ofc I also agree that people should first know eo via a healthy channel of communication, either through a good friendship or dating, and then have sex, because otherwise too may things can go wrong. No shade to ONstanders (as long as its consensual it's totally fine), but in my experience, sex in a relationship without mutual respect, affection and trust can only have sad results.
I wish Type and Tharn had a chance to know about eo normally - actually they did have that, for those initial three weeks! - but in the TTTS show, with that plot, it was not possible. As the show began and progressed, we all see that Type was in deep denial, Tharn would not take no for an answer, and the only place they could meet mid way was sex. It was the only tool these two damaged people had in their immature hands to work with, to begin with, to get to a place of understanding. If physical touch was the only way for Type to overcome his stubborn prejudice and start his healing process - bcos, while Type's mind was homophoic, but his body was not! - and Tharn held that key to do that job, I could get on board with that.
End of the day they both are fictional characters brought together by an author, so I am okay with letting her tell the story and just giving me an opportunity to dissect it to pieces. Thanks again bruh4real for your very polite and understanding reply above. I am so glad you are willing to read my essays!
I thought a lot on how to answer your question, english is not my first language so i apologise right away if this post sounds blunt, i am just trying to my best to answer this from my experience. Trigger Warning: Some of my post with contain TMI, but I think it's necessary at this point, to shatter this notion once for all, that a traumatic experience in the past will always cause trauma in the future too, in similar situation.
A past involving sexual abuse can ofc screw up a person, but it doesn't make them damaged goods, totally unable to enjoy the intimate parts of life. I obviously won't dare to speak for the entire community of abuse survivors (because we are not all cut from the same cloth), but I can tell you that not all of us fall apart at the first instance of having sex (with any gender). It is true that sex is a not an easy topic for childhood abuse survivors, but it's also true that lot of us have no problem enjoying or having sex, including rough play (Ep 12, Tharn to Type: "You usually like pain.").
Ep 4 is not the first time Type has sex - it's just his first time with a man. It's reasonable for viewers to feel worried at this, after all Type was assaulted by a man. But Type is no longer a kid - this time, physically at least he is an adult who already experienced sex before, he asked for consensual sex from Tharn (after thinking about it, with his peculiar logic), he waited all day for tharn to answer positively to his proposal, he was prepared for it (he chooses a weekend when nearby rooms would be empty!)... so the chances of Type having a panic attack during sex with a man are low, as his actions make it clear he was well-adjusted with the idea.
(NOTE: In the novel, Type DOES have a panic attack. Type was not raped by the abuser, since the perp tried to but "could not get in". So at the moment of intercourse when Tharn tries to go in, Type cries out in panic and Tharn says, "look at me, I am tharn, I am not your abuser, we don't have to do this if you don't want to" and Type replies, "no I want to continue." This is a very crucial point in Type's life: this is where he conquers his fear of the past and decides to proceed on, because he is sick of living in fear. In the tv series, they don't show this scene which is a pity, but I also understand that decision bcos it'd have opened a whole big can of worms, and the team already had enough issues to deal with.)
So... let's get a bit more personal. My past is not exactly similar to Type since I was not kidnapped or violently assaulted but it was still around same age as him and by a trusted person, so I'm fairly sure I'm not appropriating by speaking about this. Again not dismissing other CSA survivors' experiences, but in my case, despite being violated several times in my childhood, I had no agonising PTSD during my first and also subsequent consensual sexual experiences, even tho I had no therapy at that time (but Type did - according to Mame, he misses 6 months of school for recovery and therapy, and that's why he is older than Tharn).
My point is - it's not always a given that people with abusive pasts will respond badly to sex, or show trauma. I keep seeing comments like, but Type was abused as a kid by a man, how can he enjoy being a bottom, or how can he enjoy sex with a man. Oh boy. Where do I start with addressing this? Sexual preferences are not dictated by past experiences, they are fluid, they can be varied and exist as a separate entity, exclusive of a violated past. Not all abuse survivors will have war flashbacks or start shivering when being touched - no matter how many movies out there depict this! - because life buffers us in many ways, and most of us are great in adapting (at times, in pretending). We *have* to, to survive.
Healing, denial, PTSD - they take many forms. They manifest in many ways - not just sexually, not just in a straight line from point A to B. It is entirely possible for an abuse survivor to enjoy sex and act normally at that time, without any after effects... and completely lose his shit over a misplaced wallet two weeks later. In my case, I had no issues with being touched intimately but I did have a lot of other PTSD responses, mostly outside the bedroom - I cannot tolerate the dark, I am a neat freak, I tend to ditch people if they got too clingy to me, I can be violent if someone tries to step inside my space without warning me.
The series also shows Type unraveling, in subtle ways. He does show trauma after sex with Tharn - only, it is part of healing process, not part of festering process. Healing process also involves pain, as any surgery patient will tell you. Whatever Type had thought of gays and of his own sexual preference before, for the past 19 years, is now completely shattered because he has taken the right steps towards reclaiming his true identity back, and this kind of self-realisation act always has the opposite side (his old, disease-filled self) fighting back.
If you carefully analyse the ep 5 and 6 scenes, it's clear Type is confused af and appalled at himself for being unable to honour his promise of 'One time Only'. He has no self control when it comes to Tharn and that completely messes up his mind ("Why am I buying all this sprite even tho I don't want to make up with him?"). Type asks for a no-emotion involved eff buddy commitment from Tharn, but is irritated when he actually gets it. He is annoyed at the football field when Techno talks about Tharn moving on from Type (that's why he kicks the ball far, and makes Techno run for it!). In the novel, it is clear he is not able to focus on his studies too.
So, yes, the traumatic after effects of Type sleeping with Tharn ARE there - they just are not sexual in nature, they are more emotional. His old self wants to cling to its old homophobic ideas ("I am not gay, bcos I am sleeping with a man only for sex without emotional involvement") and how he should behave as a man ("I have to find and date a nice gal like Puifai, it will cancel out the fact that I like having sex with a man"). That's why he acts like a prick in ep 6.
I can see, tho, how this is all so subtle that it is easy to miss this. I have to thank you again, bruh, because now I'll be making two twitter threads - one about this too.
You are right about the execution bit. TTTS, imo, has achieved a lot, but it also has slipped up a lot. As you said, the series struck gold in its casting (especially the insanely-attractive main leads who seemed to have undergone method acting training to portray Tharn and Type, and it shows!), and its direction and camera work is very good given its limited budget, but they have not properly used the vital tool of dialogue. For eg, the flustercluck explanation of 'I don't want to owe you so I will have sex with you one time' dialogue.
In the novel, it makes so much more sense - Type is scolded by Techno that if he keeps behaving like a homophobe all his life, his future won't be good. Type then spends some days thinking about that... like, what will happen if he gets a gay boss at work, then his daily life will be intolerable (in the show it looks like overnight Type decides to sleep with Tharn, sigh)... so Type does some self-reflection, and remembers that while he hated those two seniors' touch, he does not feel repulsed by Tharn's touch, he even likes it!
In Type's mind, Tharn seems to have some magic skill which chases away his nightmares merely by touching him, so Type decides, in his peculiar logic, to sleep with him and see if Tharn can cure him of his homophobia. Whoever decided not to include this part in the tv show, I'd like to have a strong word with them. They seem to have sacrificed scenes like this for the sake pf pacing (one of the strongest points of the show is its pacing). I also think that a mix of budget concerns (the author could not find sponsors for the show so had to invest her own money to make season 1) and the mercurial nature of filming schedule prevented the production team to polish the script to its best form. Not an excuse, but there it is.
Sorry, I said I won't continue, but I'm rambling again bcos I want to specifically add this here - I keep forgetting that I watched TTTS with insider's knowledge. If I wasn't a childhood abuse survivor myself, many of Type's actions would have seemed completely clownish and outlandish to me, too. TTTS should have spent some time on its script to make it less complex. Somewhere down this page, I had a discussion with MDL member Warda08 about how a show cannot be a successful medium of mass entertainment if it requires deep analyses and specialist knowledge in order to unearth its real meaning/message. In that way, yes, TTTS has failed. Much as I love the show for just existing for representing a minority like me, I have to accept this.
Even if he hated gays, all Type had to do was ignore tharn or move out but he never does. He also repeatedly turns down champ's offer to switch rooms... And when he gets drunk, he climbs into tharn's bed and falls asleep there, and doesn't get up even when techno begs him to (ep 1)! If this is not the biggest freudian slip I don't know what is. There are further clues too - Type cannot get off by watching p*rn anymore, he knows tharn is soothing him with physical touches every night but he does nothing to stop it, etc etc
The biggest clowning is ofc the "have sex with me cos I dont wanna owe you" offer - in ep 4, tharn says he likes Type, he will do everything to get his attention becos he wants to sleep with him but not right now, he will wait until the time is right to sleep with type but type could not wait! he got a taste of the bj and needed the D right now 5555555. Jokes apart, of course there are more deep-rooted reasons for this... which is clear in the novel, and not properly adapted into the show. I'll reply separately abt this.
I feel, in this show at least, we cannot always go with what Type says, because he has no idea what he wants, he is one of the most confused charactars ever (and with good reason). So we as viewers have to watch the story unfold, connect all dots n clues given in each scene and decide on ourselves as whats really happening... and this is only as good as how skilled or invested the viewer is to do such detective work! If viewer is not arsed enough to do that (no fault of theirs - we usually look at shows to get entertained, not educated), no wonder this show is hated so much
Lack of communication - I get your point, this show does not use the tool of dialogue properly (like, say, LBC where the discussions between Ae and Pete are so heartwarming). Honestly, though, in real life people are the same way too; they screw up their lives because either they talk too much or don't talk at all when they should have talked (and this is especially true for childhood abuse survivors and those with mental health issues), so I don't see it as a crime when lack of communication is used as a plot point in a show.
As for people learning wrong things from a show, I already answered about it to member Tufan in this same thread, it's below somewhere (in short: impressionable minds or young people should respect the 18+ rating and not watch this or any show that's too mature for them to analyse). I think we have said all we want to say about it to eo, in fact I have been rambling way too much :)
The show opens with Type saying how handsome his room mate is. Like which straight person says that repeatedly about their own gender? He sees Kom after a long gap and first thing he says is how handsome he is now. He is almost robotic when talking about his girlfriends, and has outdated ideas about sexual pleasure (inspite of having had sex before with women). He knew Tharn was touching his face in the night (soothing his nightmares) but he does't stop it or confronts him about it. He cannot stop having sex with Tharn because he bloody likes it, to the point of rejecting a woman right when he is in bed with her.
Bottom line (yikes, no pun!)? Type likes boys. He just never gave himself permission to even consider it, because of his past.
Type is not a reliable narrator. He says he will never sleep with Tharn. Then he says he will sleep with him one time only. Then he says as long as its just sex his saturdays are free... then it becomes sex friends, casual lovers, etc etc. So we cannot fully believe him when he says "I only want to sleep with Tharn." Anybody who says "I can never sleep with women again," well, that epiphany didn't happen overnight....
Based on the novel and the show, my opinion is Type has always been gay. It's just that his poor traumatised child mind mis-labeled pedophilia as gay, and buried everything under that wrong label. That's why I said internalised homophobia.
About Type magically get cured of his PTSD... no, that's not how it happens in the novel and I think the show with its limited bandwidth also was not able to depict that efficiently. In any case, PTSD cannot be 'cured'. There is no 'cure' for abuse-related MH issues simply because memories cannot be erased, one has to learn to exist along with them forever. From personal experience I can say that's why there is no permanent cure for PTSD but it can be managed with minimum damage. And it DOES help to have an understanding partner who can doesn't run away in fear or disgust at having to be with a person with an abusive past. It helps a LOT.
Abuse survivors, even after having therapy or medication, often live in eternal shame and fear that they are unworthy of love, that once someone learns about their 'tainted' past, they will leave them or be disgusted with them. It won't be a stretch to say that Type probably had this fear too, since shame plays a big role in abuse survivors' life choices. Tharn completely shatters this fear, in ep 4. He shows no disgust when Type reveals his past trauma to him, and in fact keeps saying he likes Type even after Type tells him he'd never go out with him. That's why Tharn manages to capture Type's cold and scarred heart, or at least that's what I believe.
Communication issues.... well, duh. Type uses his hands so that he didn't have to use his brain or words ("hit first, speak last"). Tharn uses his dick and his niceness to make sure he will never be left alone ("nobody stops with one time with me"). They of course had communication problems, that's the point? The whole story is abt how they grow as mature people when they become a couple, and learn from eo?
As for why Tharn loves Type... I have some theories about this, but my first disclaimer would be - This is a question nobody can have a solid answer. Why do we feel attracted to some one? Even long term couples cannot articulate why they first fell in love with their SO, because you don't always fall in love after ticking a list.
That said, according to the novel and the show scenes, it looks like Tharn is a 'giver' - he likes taking care of his loved ones, and vulnerable Type with his trauma appealed to his fixer upper profile - and Type, with his past trauma, is a 'reciever' or, to put it more harshly, a taker (the hole in his soul is so huge that he needs unlimited, unconditional love and patience) and thus they both fullfill eo's deficit and fit each other like a puzzle piece. Probably not a good explanation, but who said love is logical?