jpny01

Oh, don't get me wrong - I think it was seriously f@#$ed up, and I also don't think there's no room for argument, because there certainly is. And I didn't think you came off as rude at all - we have these discussions because we have strong feelings about these shows, and if we saw everything exactly the same way, there would be nothing to talk about and we'd have nothing to learn from each other. People here have changed my mind about things - I don't always catch everything, and I'm a gay man, so my perspective will be different than what a female author intended or a female viewer sees. BL is about gay male relationships, but through a woman's lens. There's nothing wrong with that, and as a man I'm essentially a guest invited to enjoy a genre created by women for women.

Anyway, the fact that Yong Jie deliberately engineered getting XS drunk means he knows XS wouldn't sleep with him unless he were drunk. I believe his reasoning is correct (if twisted) - XS wants him, but will never act on his desires because of their power relationship, and therefore YJ needs to lower his inhibitions. That is clearly not OK. It doesn't matter if XS wants him or not, XS doesn't want to cross that line and YJ knows that.

I totally see what you're saying - but after YJ kissed him on the forehead and cheeks, it's XS that tried to pull him in for a kiss on the lips, which told YJ that he's correct that XS wants him. Forehead and cheeks is platonic, lips are not. At that point he moved to the neck, which have him an extremely strong response, and he escalated from there. I cannot believe for a moment that XS was incapable of saying "no" - if he didn't desire YJ. Because he DID want YJ, having his inhibitions lowered by alcohol made him unwilling to say "no".

That's why I can't see this as a rape or a sexual assault. I see it as manipulative and perhaps narcissistic - he's assuming that XS just needs to let his defenses down to allow his love in so they can be happy together - and definitely obsessive in an unhealthy way. There are perfectly rational and very solid reasons why XS would NOT want to do that and they would not be happy together, among them the impact on their parents, fairly extreme societal opprobrium that could ruin both their lives, and the impact on their family if it doesn't work out, giving up their currently brotherly relationship forever for something potentially ephemeral - we could probably list dozens more reasons.

I really strongly believe that an adult is responsible for everything he does under the influence of alcohol. Once you've made the decision to drink, you are by definition giving up some control. If XS instead of having sex with his brother, got in his car, drove off and ran someone over, who is responsible? XS, or YJ? It's XS, period. I don't think there's any room for debate on that particular point.

I think where the real room for disagreement is rooted in whether or not XS has feelings for YJ, which I think is completely obviously "yes". but more importantly, did XS have any idea that YJ has feelings for him?

There I think there are strong arguments either way, but I think arguments for "no" rely an an assumption that XS is clueless. Based on the conversation with his roommates the next day, if he was afraid he'd signaled his desire so strongly that YJ gave in to them, then he is fully aware of his own feelings for YJ. Also, I'm sorry, but the sunscreen application was erotic, period, and I don't believe an experienced 30-year old gay man could be oblivious to that. He knew it was because he said "That's enough" and ran off, and we got to see his face while it was happening, and that was not a "WTF" face, it was a sex face. But he could have thought HE was finding it sexual but that YJ didn't mean it that way, although brothers usually refrain from caressing each other's nipples.

Maybe the truth is in the middle and he knows YJ wants him but is in denial about it, or wonders if he does but isn't sure (although he's 100% sure now!)

I think we'll find out shortly. But this is what I mean about discussion - you made a good point that that XS didn't say "yes" either. I don't think it's always or even usually necessary have an explicit "yes", but in this particular instance, it's certainly not irrelevant. If XS had been completely or mostly sober, his physical response was an unambiguous "yes" - but because YJ knew XS wouldn't allow this to happen while sober, we're straying into darker territory.

Yes, if you're too drunk to focus or reason properly. If you're lucid enough to say "Why is your love painful? Why don't you stop loving him?", then you are not too drunk to focus or reason properly. He didn't KIND OF know he was talking to his brother.

Do you need a character to explicitly state that he's in love with his brother, or can he convey that with his acting? This is not a novel we're reading, it's live action. His longing for Xing Si is on his face every time they're together. He hesitated before agreeing to the one bed because he knew ''he was entering a fraught situation. Sorry but no brothers on the planet are going to share a bed unless there's no other available option, especially if one explicitly states that that's what he wants.. I'll ask you the same question - where does Xing Si ever say that his feelings for Yong Jie are strictly platonic? And when Yong Si kisses him on the forehead and cheek, which IS potentially platonic, is the platonic response to grab him by the neck and try to kiss him on the lips? Again I'll ask you your question - are you watching the same show I'm watching? If he could ask "Why is your love painful" etc. do you think he can't utter the word "stop"? Do you think he was oblivious to his brother's desire when he was necking him? How about when Young Jie went down on him? Was he still confused?

Yes, I know rape is not always physically violent, and it's rarely with a stranger. I never said otherwise. Violence isn't just punching people, it's also abusing power to seize what you want from someone who can't or doesn't know how to resist. It's not misguided love like Yong Jie's, it's sociopathic. I was raped by a priest who I went to in distress. He applied no force, I could easily have stopped him, but I didn't because he was an authority figure and I was confused about what was going on because I was 14. That was a violent act.

Adults are legally and morally responsible for everything they do under the influence of alcohol, period. If that's not the case, then running over someone while drunk leaves you blameless and whoever served you the drink should be imprisoned. I'm not blaming the victim, I'm saying there isn't a victim.

I didn't see it that way at all. His brother gave him a fairly explicit definition of his love and he said he felt the same way. That was not a black-out conversation (black out doesn't mean some hidden personality comes out and has sex with your family members, it means you're unconscious and unaware of what's going on). And in the conversation with his friends later, he was afraid that he had had signaled his feelings for YJ too strongly and that it was YJ who due to their authority relationship couldn't refuse XS's desires. The mention of "no means no" was pertinent because at no point to XS indicate the YJ should stop or express any resistance of any kind, either verbal or in action.

Drink reduces your inhibitions, it doesn't make you so confused that you accidentally have sex with your brother. I've gotten messy drunk with my unusually attractive brother numerous times, and not once have I accidentally f@#$ed him. If XS had been barely conscious and mumbling, sure, but they had a full-on and lucid conversation about their feelings for each other. And note that YJ even made sure he was aware - "Do you recognize who I am?"

YJ says "It was a sad and painful love" and XS responds "Why was it painful? Then why didn't you stop loving him?" That is a lucid conversation. If I were drunk and VJ said "It was a said and painful love.", I'd probably giggle and slur "then use more lube next time", not ask a cogent follow-up question.

I'm not sure why BL fandom equates alcohol consumption with lack of consent (unless you're passed out in which case consent is obviously not granted). It's wise and sensible to caution young people who don't know their limits, but XS is a 30-year old adult. He is 100% responsible for his decision to drink and everything he did under the influence, and it doesn't matter if YJ made the drinks strong, you can immediately tell how strong something is by sipping it, and you can tell when it's affecting you. Unless you're slamming them down one after the other, and they weren't.

I thought it was ten, but same diff. It is a fairly big gap between 20-30, but 30-40 is no big deal, and 40-50 is more or less non-existent. If you think about it, a 20-year old has been a legal adult for one-sixth the amount of time as a 30-year old, plus the 20yo is likely still in college and a dependent. Once you hit 25 or so, it doesn't matter so much as you are likely to have your own life and have figured out what you want and who you want to be.

In the context of this story, XS is in an authority position over YJ, so the situation is more complicated than a mere age difference - so while the way they went with this got around that somewhat, XS should have been careful to maintain control, but I think he really wanted this on one level while intellectually rejecting it on another. I don't believe for a moment he was oblivious to the dynamic at play, and if he didn't want anything to happen, he should have avoided drinking, not to mention booking a room with only one bed.

He wasn't blackout drunk, nor did his brother say blackout drunk. In fact, he made sure Xing Si was NOT blackout drunk. This is the conversation:

"Xing Si - do you recognize me?"

XS smiles - "You're Yong Jie"

"I want to tell you who it is I like, OK?"

XS nods yes,

[skip long speech] "It was a said and painful love."

"Why was it and painful? Then why didn't you stop loving him?" (If you can construct a thought like that when drunk, then you're Jesus and I salute you.)

"I can't [blah, blah blah]"

"Who is that person?"

"It's you"

"Me?"

"Yes, the person I'm deeply in love with is you."

XS then puts his arms around YJ's neck and pulls him close. 'Then that's great that you really love me. I really love you too."

YJ then kisses him on the forehead and cheeks, and XS attempts to kiss him on the lips but YJ pulls back, Kisses XS's neck and the writhing in ecstasy begins.

I'm sorry, but that is NOT A BLACKOUT. I don't disagree that he would not have done that if sober, but he wanted it, and he was more than lucid enough to say "no". They're even careful to show you that he remembers everything the next morning.

And when he's afraid he took advantage, it's not because he didn't remember what happened, it's because he was afraid he'd been giving YJ the wrong signals, which he was, but that's not relevant. He's afraid YJ was the one who couldn't consent because of the power imbalance in their relationship, and he's not entirely wrong - if it were the other way around, I would say this was a huge problem.

Have any of you that think this was a rape ever been drunk? Because it's not what you think it is. Passed out is totally different than carrying out a coherent conversation. And I hate to be crude, but YJ gave him a blowjob, and if XS were blackout drunk, there is no way that would work, unless he'd also spiked him with Viagra.

I saw this forum before I watched the episode, and I was clenched all the way through it waiting for a rape, and then when the love scene came on, I was thinking , "OK, he's going to say 'no' and YJ is going to hold him down and force him." "OK, he's going to let YJ neck him while he looks orgasmic for a while, then he'll say no and YJ will hold him down and force him." "OKAY. He'll let YJ give him a blow job then say "no" and YJ will hold him down and force him." "Sigh. When he wakes up, he'll be tied to the bed and YJ will force him?"

Seriously, this is too bizarre. I've had sex many times much drunker than that and sometimes regretted it in the morning, but there are zero times it would ever have counted as rape. The time it was, I was 14, not drunk, and while I could almost certainly have stopped it from happening, it was an authority figure, which is why sex with minors is illegal. Sex with 30-year olds, even drunk ones, is not.

The brothers? I was thinking of them as the first couple. The cartoon couple are more or less together already, they just need to realize it. If you mean the brothers, good question, but I think they'll get together and confront their dad, who will probably not be all that bothered. Xing Si seems wracked with guilt for giving in to his desires when he feels it's his duty to take care of his little brother, but I'm sure he'll get over it because his brother is hot. (Sorry, I'm shallow.)

Can you give me a time stamp to the rape? Usually rape involves a lack of exchanging expressions of deep love and writhing in ecstasy when your "rapist" touches you, and you are generally not worried YOU are the rapist the next morning. If you're sober enough to be able to receive oral sex, understand everything that's going on around you, have a conversation, and tell someone you love them, then you're not being raped. Not so much as a "we really shouldn't do this" and certainly not a "NO!". If Xing SI were underage, or even his brother's age, then OK, that was not cool.

Xing Si is THIRTY, knows how much he can drink, can decide to drink or not. If anyone is at fault here, it's him. He agreed to share a bed, he knew the implications of this, he knew his brother had feelings for him, and on some level he must have known the potential for what would happen.

Yong Jie knows the love is mutual, and he knows that Xing Si would never have sex with him unless his inhibitions were down because of his sense of responsibility for his brother - you could see that the next day when he was afraid he had taken advantage of Yong Jie.. Yong Jie shouldn't have done what he did despite all the above, and it was calculated and manipulative, but it was not sexual assault, and it certainly wasn't rape.

Rape is a horrific act of violence that can permanently scar a person, not a gentle kiss on the forehead and tender caresses. I'm glad everyone is concerned with consent, but being drunk does not make consent impossible unless you've blacked out or don't know what you're doing - just because you're doing something you wouldn't have if you were sober doesn't mean you've been raped. If you get drunk and drive & have an accident, that's 100% on you - not the person who gave you alcohol (unless you're a minor).

Drunkenness doesn't transform you into someone else, it just allows you to overcome your inhibitions to do things you want to do. Your inhibitions are often there for very good reasons, and there are things you want to do but shouldn't (like having sex with your stepbrother) but sometimes they're there out of insecurity (like avoiding sex with a guy that you like because you think you're fat) and a drink can be helpful in overcoming this.

All the above does not apply to minors, and I will note this series is Rated R, so there aren't supposed to be any minors watching it. There are adult themes and it's clearly labeled as such.

Really? Wow, it's amazing how tastes can be different. I think he looks like a strange malignant fish wearing pajamas designed for an overweight middle-aged woman.

Thank you! Yes, I remember now! I didn't even click on him because his head shot doesn't look like him to me.

We've never seen two people adhere to a strict seme/uke dynamic who dislike each other when they meet and then fall in love, which is interrupted in Ep 8 (or ep 10 if it's a 12-parter) by manufactured melodrama?

What's different to me is the subtlety and intimacy of the story, which is about a relationship between two very different people who have to overcome the obstacles of that difference and their situations to be together. When the story sticks to that, it's pure gold, All the nonsense of the last two eps (although there's great stuff in this one) is a distraction that requires people to behave out of character in implausible situations. It's not needed. This could be about the two of them spending all day gardening and their interaction would be compelling. Earth is so good I can't believe he's a totally different person IRL. I've never seen someone so completely inhabit a character with such perfection in a BL - until last ep when he had to be a different person to fit the plot. That's why I'm bothered. It's like listening to an old LP of your favorite song and then the needle hits a scratch and jumps a few seconds. Or if you're super young, when a CD gets stuck. Or something's wrong with your connection and the streaming pauses in the middle of an important scene. Sorry, rambling again.

OK, but we need a genre name and 'cuteness' isn't specific enough. Maybe Cute-sploitation? IDK. I like cuteness too, but framed in a logical and compelling story. Many people will forgive anything if they get their cuteness. Although I'm being mildly hypocritical because if I have a thing for one of the characters I'll watch it no matter what happens.

Timmy Xu is on my top 5 list. I'm not sure it's possible to be more beautiful than that.

Have you seen ITSAY? That's one of the few that has an extended seduction scene and treats sexuality like sexuality. It also makes the more effeminate bottomy guy the aggressor, which is refreshing.

Addicted does too - including a passive-aggressive seduction scene, which I'm not sure I've seen elsewhere.

I have not seen it - it sounds like a pass based on your description. In FBTE you kind of just have to roll with it - the parents seemed aware there was something TOO close about them when they were kids, and the older one certainly took possession of his brother - then they had to wait until their mother died until they got together. If I recall, the day of her funeral. It wasn't a particularly deep film, but those were two extremely attractive men. I'd love to see an Asian version of that, except they would probably be run over by a truck at the end.

The only other thing I can think of is the short Star-crossed. Maybe if you have others you should message me as we're getting off-topic.

When someone said Tharn raped Type in the shower, it took me about an hour to construct a scenario where it would be rape. It would take a lot of planning and money. You'd have to install restraints for all four limbs in the shower without him noticing, and find a way to get him to ingest viagra - and sleeping pills so you can get him into the restraints. You could try forcing him with a weapon, but he might not take your willingness to use it seriously.

Or, you could take acting classes and then try convince him that you'll murder his family unless he allows it and consents to take viagra. But that probably wouldn't work because even though Tharn has about 20 pounds of muscle over Type, in a fight it could still go either way, and he could get killed, or Type could probably at least get out of there and call the police. Or, he could pretend to go along with it until Tharn gets on his knees, when he'd be defenseless.

So you're back to scenario one, which would require a lot of things to go perfectly for the plan to work. What if Type forgets his wallet and comes back to the room while the workmen are installing the shower restraints? There's a lot that can go wrong with the plan.

My head (both of them) nearly exploded watching From Beginning to End.

Yes - a large segment of the audience not only doesn't want to see manifestations of male sexuality, they are actually repelled by it. They want cute boys being cute with each other. It's perfectly fine if they are 100% non-sexual with each other - all there needs to be is a dedicated relationship that lasts forever and they maintain a level of fidelity that Stalin would find OTT oppressive.

Like I said, it's the female equivalent of male lesbian fantasies, with OTT hyper-romanticization instead of hyper-sexualization. I don't see how it's different. You're still exploiting people for your titillation. While I don't object to either, recognize what you're doing and get off your high horse.

There's an even more horrible aspect to all this that's intensely homophobic and misogynist to the point of bordering on evil.

The view of bottoming is so negative in BL that its often viewed as unacceptable for a man to seek out and enjoy bottoming - so the solution is to begin the relationship with a r&p$. The second worst thing you can do to a person - something regarded in every culture as among the most heinous acts possible, is presented as morally preferable to wanted to be buttf$%^ed.

That's not limited to male/male relations - you'll find it in straight dramas too where it's unacceptable for a woman to pursue and enjoy sex, hence r&p$.

And almost always, not only is this not presented as something horrible, it's romanticized.

In fanfic, you'll see a lot of r&p$ fantasy, and I think that's fine. fanfic is highly tagged with warnings, and you're actively seeking out specific things using tags in your search. If you're searching for r&p$, you know it's r&p$, meaning you're probably perfectly capable of distinguishing a trope of erotica from a normal romantic relationship. Let's face it, power imbalance can be hot. The sex scene in this show where Shi De holds Shu Yi down was smokin'.

However, these shows are deliberately marketed at teens and younger, largely from cultures that are very homophobic, that through no fault of their own are unlikely to be terribly familiar with gay life, so some of these issues are really objectionable especially as there's no way to know in advance what stereotypes they're going to be exposed to.

This is so long that I've forgotten what I was responding to.

I think the engineer thing comes from the success of SOTUS, and has been imitated ever since.

There has been a little progress lately, and the better tier of Filipino BLs break a lot of barriers, but on the other hand, the desire to market to China seems to be causing an all-around regression to Victorian morals.

In the end, producers will aim to satisfy demand - but I think demand can be based on misperceptions created by ubiquity, for example that the seme/uke dynamic has any correlation to reality, which it does not, in Japanese or any other culture. Or that falling into an accidental kiss will cause anything but blood and teeth to fly everywhere.

OK, but even granting you that (which I don't - I think the insecurity was retconned), how does that explain Shu Yi not forcing a confrontation? Even if he was too shocked to say anything in the park scene, you're saying the guy who would shout his love from a bridge and march up to a CEO in front of his entire company and slap him across the face would fly all the way from Taiwan to the USA, then fly all the way back without confronting GSD, and automatically assuming a person that's always been gay is suddenly in a straight relationship? And let's not say insecurity. These are both CEOs. They can't hold those positions without by shying away from everthing at the slightest obstacle.

And how do we explain the existence of the internet, social media, and their mutual friends, any of which could have easily clued them in? All Shu Yi needs to do is google GSD and he'll see he's single, childless, and lives alone. He could probably just check FB to see who the woman was. I'm old and even I know how to to that.