Lys

I dunno, at least in the pilot trailer she does seem to be a large source of conflict between them. I can't stand when two guys are close friends and then they stop being friends because of a girl (or boy, but it's a girl 99.99999% of the time). It's so irritating, like can't the girl just be her own awesome character, rather than a prize to fight over? It bums me out even more watching the official trailer, because it looks like she could have been a cool character and close friend too, but she's downgraded to love interest. The pilot trailer made me think there will be a major focus on romance, regardless of the tag. Honestly, if they took that out, allowed the three to be close friends and nothing more, and gave them female love interests outside of that circle, I would give it a shot. But I just can't with that trope. Maybe it isn't what I think it is, so I'll check in again once the show is airing, but... not likely.

Thank you! People are saying the show itself isn't great, so I'll just look up that scene. Mostly I'm just glad I didn't have the wrong one, thanks again.

Oh yeah, I've since seen all the various posts about it and such, but thanks anyway. Maybe having the link here will be helpful to someone else passing through.

It's an ensemble cast, that means all six of them are the leads. It does seem like the inciting incident focuses around Force and Book though, so I guess we'll see how they divvy out screen time.

Okay, if you really want to break this down, we can, but this is gonna be long. The core problem is that there are a few flaws (and only a few), typically reserved for bottom-coded characters, that are treated as an excuse for one character to hurt another. The story and audience justify it because the character is hurting, as if they're the only one with feelings. The consensus seems to be that if you're hurting enough, it's okay to hurt other people because YOU are the real victim. I didn't say he wasn't allowed to have these insecurities. I didn't say he wasn't allowed to be weak and make mistakes. My issue is how the narrative, as well as fans of the show, treat it like he was the only one suffering. I realized what it was in particular that was bothering me so much after I saw the finale of Our Dating Sim. It was the first time I'd seen a coded-bottom character really have to face the damage they did to the top. Normally the top is portrayed as endlessly pursuing the other, endlessly forgiving him, never giving up on him. And that's cheered by many viewers, when in reality, that's incredibly unhealthy and VERY unfair.

Screwing your ex that you know is still in love with you, then coldly telling him he can be your f-buddy if he wants but you'll never date him or be interested in him again is so disgusting and wrong. But Seo Joon's feelings never come up in any of this. His own parents push him away, and Ji Woo reminded him that no one can be close to him which is a huge, painful insecurity of his. If Seo Joon had used Ji Woo's moment of vulnerability to shove Ji Woo away, say horrible things to him, and lash out due to his own pain, would you be cheering Seo Joon on? Would you understand and think it makes sense that the story ended that way?

If you still don't get what I'm saying, let me try to give you an analogy here. Say you have a male character who was sexually assaulted by older women. They brutally abused him when he was growing up, so now he has a lot of issues. If one day, he snapped and started punching his girlfriend in the face, but she stood by him and they stayed together, and he promised not to do it again, would that feel warm and fuzzy to you? He is a deeply traumatized character, and what he did, he did out of hurt. He didn't do it because he doesn't love his girlfriend. But wouldn't it be strange to act like what he did was okay because he was traumatized? That a "sorry" is enough? That his girlfriend should stay with him based only on his promise that it won't happen a second time?

Obviously physical violence is more extreme, but in that example I think the story could potentially still be saved if the guy got lots of therapy, and they also addressed how horribly he hurt his girlfriend. If a story like that had the guy cry for the first time and ask the girlfriend to hug him, I think most people would be outraged. They wouldn't argue that it was a huge breakthrough for him, because the suffering of the girlfriend would be more apparent to them. They would be worried about her and her safety. I just don't see that same concern for the other character in a lot of BL pairings or situations where it's a girl hurting a guy.

As for my understanding on Ji Woo's issues, I feel like you either didn't read my entire comment, or you decided to just latch onto the main thing you didn't like, but I clearly stated that Ji Woo is struggling and needs to be in therapy. I also said several times that his issues are legitimate. What I had a problem with was the show acting like his issues are all solved and no more work needs to be done in order to fix what happened. Him having issues doesn't justify his behavior. I understand why he is the way he is, but that doesn't make what he did okay.

Seo Joon hurt and hurt and hurt for over a year, and then after being repeatedly rejected, toyed with, used, and made to feel horrible about himself while having his own insecurities inflamed, Ji Woo said sorry and cried for a few minutes, and all is forgiven. What about all of the deep trauma Ji Woo caused in Seo Joon? Seo Joon, who ALSO faced rejection. Who was ALSO mistreated, including while Ji Woo was doing all of this to him. Whose mental illness started getting bad again because of Ji Woo. Where was Ji Woo's remorse over that? What did he do or sacrifice in order to redeem himself for all of that? Crying and apologizing aren't enough.

Do I understand a character that might get in his own way due to his own insecurities? Yes. Do I think that character should just hop back into an unhealthy relationship because he saw some text messages? Absolutely not. Ji Woo has a lot of work to do. If he's so damaged and insecure that he would almost destroy a person who never did anything wrong., then he is not ready for a relationship. That's what I don't understand, how people just act like Seo Joon is so great for fighting for them and taking him back, when it was all to his own detriment from the start.

It bothers me so much how many people want to excuse toxic behavior just because of someone's trauma. I have been deeply traumatized many times in my life, and I would never intentionally hurt other people like that. I've made tons of mistakes, but I try to better myself and work through my insecurities. I don't take it out on others and then just shrug it off. That's why this is a fantasy for a certain type of person. They want the sense that they could be as horrible as possible and still be loved. They want to believe someone will accept them and tolerate them as they work through their issues, no matter how much it hurts that person to be on the receiving end. And look, THAT IS FINE. You're allowed to have that kink. It's actually a very, very popular trope. For me, however, I've always been the self-sacrificing, protective type. I've been Seo Joon. For the longest time I thought my worth was in protecting and shielding those in my life, no matter how much it personally hurt me, and there were plenty of people who would happily take advantage of that. It took me years to learn what Seo Joon still hasn't, and that's that you can't save others at your own expense.

Going back to the Our Dating Sim thing, that show was too short (damn it, Korea) to fully explore what it could have, but having the top crying and saying that he was afraid because the bottom TRAUMATIZED HIM with his selfish, insecure actions was a huge moment for me. To have the bottom startled, realizing for the first time how badly he'd hurt this person he loved, made me realize how rare that is. I keep seeing stories where one character runs away due to insecurity and hurts the other character, but it's always framed like the insecure one was right, and that's my problem with it.

The show didn't create an even balance. Ji Woo was a nasty person, and while I understand that he has a lot of issues that he needs to work through, and I have sympathy for that, it doesn't mean he should just be forgiven and allowed to have back all of the things he threw away like garbage. He needs to work for it. He needs to show he's improving himself. He needs to show that he's making an effort. What did he do to suggest that anything is gonna be different, other than to say he wouldn't do it again? He cried because he realized what he'd done, and that's a great first step, but it isn't proof that anything has changed. Abusers cry all the time to their victims and that doesn't mean they've changed. I'm not saying Ji Woo is an abuser, necessarily, but he and Seo Joon have a lot more to work through than the show allowed.

So that's where I'm coming from. You're more than welcome to feel however you feel about the show, but for someone who doesn't think an individual's personal insecurity and fears mean they can hurt an entire other person, who has done nothing wrong and also has their own insecurities and fears that they never used to hurt THEM, the show was rather upsetting and unbalanced.

I'm glad, it actually helped me to better figure out what it was specifically that got to me. I think when I first finished it, I was so upset that I didn't know where to even start, but now I'm zeroing in on the things that rubbed me the wrong way. Hopefully eventually I can go back to enjoying the first season someday if nothing else. At least you can always rewatch the second season, eh?

I agree that Vietnam is the one I'd really like included. It's the only one that has enough content to go on the lists I maintain, and it drives me crazy that it isn't included.

I didn't say you're all in that category. There's also nothing wrong with having a thing for that trope (horrible characters being loved, not just horrible characters in general). I wasn't trying to insult anybody, just create a distinction based on a lot of comments that seem to reflect that mindset. I also clearly said there's no payoff FOR ME. It was a payoff for you, and that's great for you, but for me I needed a lot more to make any of that feel worth it. I spent the entire show feeling angry, and then he cries for two minutes and it's all better. But see, there you go again with the "you don't get it" bit. Just because someone has a different interpretation from you does not make you right and the other person wrong. I DO get it. I understand why you like it, and that's great for you. I'm allowed to feel the way I feel as well. I would have loved to have liked it also, but it was a huge let down for me.

Believe me, I tried to give it the benefit of the doubt. I saw what they were going for, but to me, they didn't pull it off. If they had made him a little less awful, I would have been cool with it. All of the mean things he said and the crappy things he did... I think if that whole thing with the bridge scene hadn't happened, and he'd been avoidant, rather than cruel when Seo Joon tried to talk to him, I would have been annoyed but understanding. Or if Seo Joon had literally done anything wrong, so it wasn't just all built up in his head. He justified being so unkind due to his own insecurity, and I feel like that kind of behavior is often easily forgiven by viewers, when it shouldn't be. If you read the rest of my comment, you'll see why he crossed the line for me.

There needs to be an equal amount of work put in to negate the bad things a person has done. I wasn't satisfied with the small change after everything that happened. It feels too much like romanticizing abusive relationships to me. He hurt Seo Joon so badly, but the emphasis in the end was all on his own hurt, even though it was 100% his own fault.

Anyway, does it really matter? We have different feelings about Ji Woo, based on our own life experiences and preferences. I doubt that'll change. I have to admit that the show hurt my feelings enough to make me feel bitter about it, plus a lot of people who liked it can be pretty aggressive about it, so my language is probably defensive in places. I have no hate for people who like the show, but it seriously disappointed me, and that's frustrating, especially when there are people ready to run in and tell me how wrong I am. Maybe some part of me is hoping with enough time I'll start to hate the show a little less. At least some of the sting of disappointment should fade. This set up COULD have worked for me, because I actually do like complex conflict. They just didn't pull it off in a satisfying way.

They actually don't include a lot of Asian countries. They only include Thailand, South Korea, China, Japan, the Philippines, Honk Kong, and Taiwan. So they don't include anything from Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar, Indonesia, etc. I've asked before too, and I can't remember if I got an answer, but I think the consensus is that they have a hard enough time with the countries they do cover that there isn't enough man power for the rest. I wish they covered them all though, for sure.

It really is! I was so disappointed in South Korea in that moment. They seem like they're slowly making progress, but this was a huge step back. I hope they aren't successful or at least get decent pushback over their decision. This could have been such an important show, and they screwed it up for a quick cash grab. Why even adapt a story about homophobia and the struggles of gay characters if you're going to take that out?

....And? You're allowed to like whatever the hell you like. I literally did not say you couldn't. In turn, I'm allowed to be bothered by a character repeatedly hurting someone else, then the narrative acting like all is forgiven when he finally regrets it. There was no payoff for me. Now they're back in an unhealthy relationship and will likely break up when things get hard again. Like I said, it's the honeymoon phase.

At any rate, clearly you are not who I was talking to. People who like the trope where a character is loved no matter how awful they are WILL love this show. For the rest of us, it's deeply frustrating and irritating.

It's called I, a Gangster, Became a High School Student. It's about a gangster who tries to save a high schooler who kills himself over bullying because he's gay, and they end up swapping bodies. He falls in love with another male student while seeking vengeance for the bullied boy. The company bought it in hopes of drawing in BL fans but took out all the gay content under the assumption that people will watch anyway, and they can cater to the audience that actually matters, the people who only want straight stuff. International fans are reacting negatively, so hopefully their bad choice hurts the production, but I have no idea if Korean BL fans will just be like, "Fine, I'll watch it anyway." I really hope they don't, because this is seriously messed up. Like they could get away with that crap in 2015, but now? They're not China.

Same! I'm bitter because there was a show that was going to tackle this topic, but they decided to take out the gay element due to their own homophobia, totally missing the irony.

I hope one day we do get something more based on this. It was so good, but SO sad. I want to see a continuation where some other boys in a similar situation learn from this past one and manage to triumph in the end, giving the two original boys peace of some sort. I don't know, my heart is just broken. Like it's been a full day and I'm still crying.

I'm sorry, I just finished the show and I'm still really worked up about it. You're allowed to like what you like, and I hope my counter wasn't too abrasive. I'm glad you enjoyed the show. I wish I'd been able to enjoy it too. It was very pretty, and there were a lot of moments that would have been sweet and touching if I hadn't been so frustrated.

I think the biggest issue here is that the show failed to make Ji Woo likable or sympathetic. His reason for what he did doesn't justify how he behaved, and he didn't actually have to try or learn or grow at all to get back the things he threw away. Insecurity is valid, but it isn't an excuse to hurt others. If you can't have a grown up conversation and can only act like a little kid, you don't have what it takes to maintain an adult relationship.

Ji Woo behaved like a petulant child, complete with a full on parallel of a literal child doing the exact same thing he did--throwing a temper tantrum, leaving a note, and running away. Everyone worries about her, and Ji Woo never seems to catch the implication that he was behaving like a 7-year-old. Then to top it off, he initiates sex with Seo Joon, even knowing that Seo Joon still loves him and wants him. What a sadistic, selfish, controlling move.

I understand characters making mistakes. My problem with it is that Ji Woo really needs therapy and a decent amount of time working on how to respect others and use his words. Those aren't small things. If you're willing to hurt someone so badly that he starts to relapse into a mental illness, you screwed up. I understand that he was pushing people away to protect himself. THAT DOESN'T EXCUSE HIS BEHAVIOR. What he needed was to actually address the inner issues he's struggling with and put in the work to become a better, kinder person who wouldn't hurt someone who loves him like that. Everything Ji Woo does feels like it's because he feels sorry for himself. Even the apology at the end is because he realized he screwed up this good thing in his life, not because he feels horrible about how he hurt Seo Joon.

Ji Woo never does anything to show he's grown or changed. He just gets some text messages, and suddenly his deeply rooted belief that they can't be together is just gone? Oh, all of those cruel things you said and did to Seo Joon? They're forgiven because you saw some text messages.

The fact that they're happy and together now doesn't mean a thing. They're back in the honeymoon phase and will almost definitely break up again. It's so similar to the lazy, tacked on ending of I Promised You the Moon. Like, what did you do to change and grow? How are things different at all? You spent a full year being cold and bitter to someone who loves you, and now suddenly that's just over? No, because that's not how people work. You just had a surge of regret finally, after being self-righteous and self-pitying for this long, and Seo Joon is too kind to turn you away, even though he should.

This show was just so frustrating. By the time it got to the cutesy ending, I was just over it. I don't want them to get back together. I wish Seo Joon had met someone else, someone who knows how to treat him right.

This show makes me appreciate Theory of Love even more than I already did. It took an unlikable character who did horrible, painful things and actually made him work his ass off to become worthy of the other character's love. When I started Theory of Love, I fully expected something like To My Star 2, honestly, and I thought I'd be pissed by the end. Some guy being a jerk the whole time, then in the second to last episode, he realizes he DOES love the other character and sees the error of his ways!!!111 Then without doing any sort of work to fix things, they just get together because twoo wuv.

That's how stuff like this usually ends, and TMS2 was no exception. The funny thing is, lots of people gush over this show, but hate on Theory of Love because of Khai's behavior in the first half. He actually changes and grows and becomes a better person, but they can't forgive him. Meanwhile, Ji Woo doesn't do a damn thing to fix the mess he's created, but he cries for two minutes and all is forgiven. He must be protected at all costs. It's just frustrating to see. But at least I can use this show in the future when people keep insisting I watch something I have a feeling I won't like. If they think this was a masterclass in writing, that'll give me an indication of how we see things differently, and I'll know to stick with my gut in the future.

If you've been avoiding this show because you have a feeling it'll rub you the wrong way, but you're thinking about watching it because people have been so pushy and saying it's great: TRUST YOUR GUT. I had a feeling, based on what I'd heard, that the solution to the angst would not be enough for me, and I'd be frustrated by the end. I was wrong. I wasn't just frustrated. I HATED what they did here, and I hated Ji Woo. This show ruined the previous season for me.

Let me be clear: I wanted to like it. I wish the flaws hadn't been so egregious, but I spent the entire time feeling pissed off.

I recall someone saying to me that the only people who didn't like the second season were teenagers who didn't understand nuance. What a simplistic way of viewing things, and frankly, it would be easier for me to believe the opposite. The truth is, the people who like stuff like this tend to have a kink for horrible characters always being accepted and loved no matter what they do. To each their own and all (honestly, no judgment), but don't try to put down people who don't share your specific kink. There were so many issues with this show, and if you're not the type to forgive weak reasoning and contrived drama, you likely won't enjoy it. The person who said that to me compared people's dislike of To My Star 2 to the dislike for My Beautiful Man, which also had clunky execution in various ways (though not nearly as bad as this). People get very self-righteous about these shows. You're allowed to like what you like, but that doesn't make everyone else wrong. Just because other people aren't as forgiving of media as you are doesn't mean they just "didn't get it." I got it just fine. I just don't happen to find the logic in this story to be sound.

Continued with spoilers below:

Wow, really? The bridge scene pissed me off beyond belief. Ji Woo is so incredibly selfish and self-absorbed. You don't treat someone coldly and cruelly, then turn around and kiss them like you didn't do anything. I already hated him, and that part just made it so much worse for me. He never shows any sort of remorse for how he treated Seo Joon, except when it personally affects him. Like, "boohoo, I screwed everything up for myself." It made me really sad because normally I would have LOVED a scene like that, but the show makes no effort to make Ji Woo sympathetic at all. He's just playing mind games from the start, doing what he wants, taking what he wants. I wish Seo Joon would have suddenly realized how cold and selfish Ji Woo really is and shoved him away in that moment. Disappeared from his life and left Ji Woo with hurt feelings. He really deserves it.

And then he even has sex with him then still doesn't want to be with him, so he just used him. I guess I just don't get why they made Ji Woo so unlikable. He's just not a nice, loving person. He's selfish and cold, and I feel like the show made no effort to show another side to him. He spent so long only thinking about himself that the blip at the end still feels selfishly motivated. Human insecurity is a natural thing, but it's not like he made one little mistake. They could have had him run away and be avoidant, but they had him be cold and cruel. The fact that he sleeps with Seo Joon, then reverts to being horrible, was the nail in the coffin for me. By the time they got all cutesy, I didn't care. I wanted them to stay broken up. Ji Woo didn't do a single thing to prove he won't pull this crap again when things get tough in the future.

This left such a heavy feeling in my heart. It really is well done, and the message is so important, but a lot of comments on the video itself (youtube) were so tone-deaf and stupid. I put off watching it for a long time, because I knew it would hurt. Now I just want to watch a feature-length version where there's some justice here. Ugh, it's so painful.

Recent homophobic cash-grabbing from another Korean company is leaving me especially bitter. They had a chance to do something good, but all they saw was a lazy way to get money.

Looks like this one is still active after all: https://www.instagram.com/p/CqXtZPGszjJ/

Boun talking a bit about this project: https://www.instagram.com/p/CqX_7rGDMoE/