zleighz

This is... sarcasm?

Heh, I feel very smart for learning how to rip videos off of Youtube specifically for this eventuality.

It also meant that when I went camping with a friend and we had no internet, I had the perfect opportunity to introduce her to the show lololol

Something I thought about while rewatching the show...

When Phupha is dragged to the stadium, he has a lot of fight in him. He literally punches Thyme and he implores the crowd to stand up against F4. But then Thyme puts his hand on Phupha's shoulder and talks about how all the people bullying him aren't doing it because he's forcing them to, they're doing it because he allows them to. He creates the situation that lets them act like the anonymous accounts online. (I love this speech)

It is only then that Phupha breaks. Phupha buys into Thyme's worldview and it breaks him.

With Gorya, Thyme tries the same thing. He lets her get chased to the stadium and he cuts up her shoe. And if he left her then, he maybe would've gotten what he thought he wanted.

But his *words*, far from breaking her, actually fire her up. Trying to tell her that her parent's sincerity (the shoes) belong in the trash is enough to bring the fight out of her. And so she puts on those exact shoes and uses them to repudiate his words.

The reason Thyme is so taken by Gorya isn't because no one has ever pushed back against him before (again, Phupha tries to) but because no one has ever fought against his worldview before. It sets up his whole arc.

It's beautiful storytelling.

If you didn't know they were based on the same source material, you probably would assume they were entirely different shows tbh.

And so damn loyal. Love him.

Lol, I'll agree that this show set up too much acknowledgment of class issues and capitalism that pretty much nothing short of burning it all to the ground was going to match up.

That said, I felt pretty dang impressed with what they actually did with it...

Letting Thyme give a speech explicitly calling out the fact that companies aren't passively run, that it is still a CHOICE to let profit come before people, and to stand up declaring that he repudiates the whole thing.

Honestly, it is refreshing to see a story say, "hey actually business decisions aren't made by an unbiased weighing of costs and benefits, they're made by people".

Blocking might stop us from seeing your rude, self-righteous and shallow opinions, but won't help you know that that's what we think of you. If you want to become someone worth having discussion with (right now, you absolutely aren't that kind of person), it is worth reflecting on *why* you come across this way. Since you have been called out for this behavior, you can either keep leaning into the troll-like behavior you have consistently employed, or choose do better. The ball is in your court.

Sigh, Kate, you really come across like such a jerk on here. This is not the first time I've read one of your comments and thought, "wow, so loud and assertive for someone with such shallow comprehension". Unfortunately, this is the trend these days (probably because too many ppl agree with you that "everything is subjective" and somehow conflate that, like you, as "valid" criticism....it's not).

Friend, if I could give you a Zinger to soften the blow I would.

One of the things I love about the set up in F4 is how they were able to make Gorya stand out. While Phupha tries to fight back against Thyme, he's completely broken by Thyme's monologue about how he "just gives them anonymous accounts in real life". Phupha can't take it and it completely breaks him. He can't keep fighting back.

But when Thyme takes Gorya's shoe and cuts it up and tosses it into the trash, he is giving another monologue, this time about how things that belong in the trash should stay there. It should break her, and on anyone else it would've worked... but instead Gorya takes that same shoe out of the trash and uses it to fight back. It's an amazing moment and really shows us that Gorya *is* different.

So much better than a FL who is merely loud, reckless, and headstrong

Haha, you seem really nice btw. We all can't help our feelings and what moves me just doesn't move you, and that's fine. My response to you was mostly just to show you why I don't think your comment had anything to do with symbolism/metaphor, not to try and convince you to see it my way :)

This is a nice write up of your feelings (even if I don't feel the same way lol). Though I still question why you and others keep thinking that symbolism and metaphor are hindering your understanding of the characters and the story. For instance, my perspective on the scene of Thyme rescuing Gorya in episode 5 has nothing to do with symbols, etc...

While episode 5 has an ongoing metaphor of "the glass mask" (the episode title) the scene between Thyme and Gorya is just a basic one-two punch to my emotions.

Gorya, tough as nails, refuses to give in to the bullies who are attacking her. They rough her up, they set fire to her friends scooter, she even pleads for help from a teacher - someone who should be a protector - and is left to fend for herself.

When Thyme shows up and literally lifts her up, and when he tells her that he believes her, she lets herself cry for the first time. She doesn't cry because she's hurt, or scared. She cries because she finally feels safe. I know that kind of crying, and it was an amazingly moving scene to me.

That doesn't mean it worked for everyone, which is totally fine! because we all have different experiences and can empathize with characters differently. Though, I am not sure I understand why you think about it in relation to symbolism or metaphor.

psst.... the Chinese Meteor Garden had way more and way more obvious PPL

Glancing through episode 49 and I found PPL for makeup, shampoo, a face cleanser, electric stirfry machine, and webtoons lol.

If anyone remembers which episode it is where Daoming Si gifts Shancai a "meteor garden" in the mobile phone game PPL, please let me know. I've been dying to show someone that scene.

More often than not, symbolism and metaphor are used in storytelling (anyone who watches Asian dramas will have seen many versions of 'the red string of fate' for instance). Many people are taught by their literature teachers to recognize and decode symbolism in books, and then can carry that over to other story-telling mediums like dramas and movies, but a lot of people miss out on HOW to do this, and therefore don't see it when it's right in front of them.

I think this might be why you have such a negative reaction to these kind of discussions, because you are used to watching stories and either ignoring or missing out on the symbolism and metaphors, in favor of just watching the plot. If that is how you usually watch things, it make sense that you probably feel like you're being given a lecture about HOW to watch it when people take the story deeper than surface-level. (because, in effect, these discussions can make it feel like being in a comparative-literature class instead of a fan/antifan echo chamber. Intellectually stimulating for some people, but not everyone)

I support the people still trying to have deeper discussions on this forum (though the forum itself seems broadly anti-intellectual). So, for anyone reading this comment who is interested in learning more, I'm linking to a fantastic video about decoding metaphor in the movie Annihilation (one of my favorite movies btw). Even though I LOVED the movie, I didn't catch even half of what this video talks about, though watching him put it all together really makes it obvious in retrospect. The video is only about 20 minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URo66iLNEZw

I think you might be misunderstanding...

Gorya seeing a hazy outline of Thyme coming to her rescue, and Gorya flashing to an image of her necklace when she thinks her house is going to be raided, are not, by any stretch of the imagination, "symbolic". They are the same kind of storytelling device as flashbacks, but not as hand-holding as flashbacks are.

The other things Azet mention deepen the story for people paying attention, but aren't necessary to understand the character's feelings or motivations.

Tbh, all of these things you want are completely unnecessary filler and redundant as well. It's like watching a show cut from a character walking to a car, to another scene of them getting out of the car at their destination, and then asking how they even got there. If you know the character can drive, if you see the car, if you can put two and two together, then why ask to see the character drive?

Gorya? We saw her life in the countryside. She shows up after quitting school and her parents hug her, and immediately her life becomes the same routine we saw in ep15. She harvests fruit, she goes to the market, she fixes broken things, she haggles with neighbors, she deals with the rising real estate prices and the spillover effects that it is having on the economy and their daily lives, etc etc etc. She doesn't even have time to go to the beach until Ren takes her there. There truly is nothing more to show, and if they had extended this sequence it would have felt boring and drawn out. A waste of time.

Thyme? We know he's savvy. For me, it was the very first episode when he gave the speech to Phupha about giving people anonymous accounts in real life that let me believe we actually had a clever (though romantically dorky) ML on our hands, and many other scenes after that kept solidifying his character as one who would slot neatly into his executive role in his company. So what was important was not seeing him doing his job (oh god that would be so boring why would you even think you want that lol) but seeing HOW he does the job.... like his mother. His whole struggle was not "can he do the job" but "will he be a leader like his mother, or will he be the kind of leader he wants to be". And episode 15 showed his struggle, insecurity and growth just beautifully.

Oh good! I wasn't sure how my comment was going to be received but I really wanted to tell you I see you (and that I disagree with someone ignoring all of your deeper points to merely try and scold you smh).

I really think you'll appreciate this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

It's about 13 minutes long and it's a great summery of how so many people will nitpick mundane, shallow things yet confuse it for some kind of 'analysis' (often described incorrectly as 'plot holes')

This interaction between you and Kate is a great encapsulation of the video, and also why so so many of us who used to be very active on this forum gave up and simply moved over to Twitter.

To explain: you commented on how viewers who watch shallowly are less likely to enjoy F4 because it has so much depth that needs to be analyzed to really understand and appreciate everything. Kate came back to basically say, "no that can't be true because of these shallow, nitpicky things that have nothing to do with analysis and are the reasons I don't enjoy it" (which honestly provides a perfect example of your point, though seems to go over her head).

Yet when you replied with an attempt to take her nitpicks and contextualize them within the show, Kate merely came back to scold you for not supporting her feelings. Though, again, she doesn't recognize that her feelings are actually what you were speaking to directly in your main comment -- that those who watch shallowly likely won't enjoy F4 as much as people who put effort into it.

I have been staying off this forum after too many interactions like this, but I wanted to share the video and share my perspective on yours and Kate's interactions as a form of support for your attempt at meaningful discussion.

Look for @daebakpodcast1 and go through all their retweets and comments, you'll find tons of worthwhile comments and discussions. :)

I like to come back to lurk and see if I can spot anyone missing 'the good days' on here, just so I can point you over to Twitter. Just search the hashtags #F4Thailand or #F4ThailandEP15 and you'll see many of the same voices that used to be all over this forum before it took a downturn. There are still tons of great discussions happening (and a lot more gifs lol).

Ep 15 is my favorite episode to date and I am so glad I still have the F4 community to process my feelings along side of, and I'm sad I only have one more week of this!