zleighz

Yes! These are great

The implication of your comment is that by me saying that Gorya acts like any reasonable person would under the same circumstances (vs like Sherlock Holmes or other very fake characters) that it is demeaning her.

This is both:

1. wrong, and
2. pretty toxic

An amazingly well realized character like Gorya is so amazing in part BECAUSE she isn't a cartoon-y representation of perfection or whatever.

"this card looked nowhere close to the original one"

Yes, correct. This card is a crappy imitation of the Red Card (just like Lita's Thyme-faced cookies are a crappy imitation of the cookies Gorya made), but you aren't talking about it's meaning in the story, you're just saying it made you mad that Gorya didn't recognize that it is different.

But....what makes you think that a reasonable character acting reasonably (not, like a Sherlock Holmes or other super-observant type) would be able to spot the difference?

First of all, stress affects memory: Think about a person being called on to answer a question in class. Most people feel stressed just from being put on the spot and it makes them clam up and forget the answer, even if they absolutely know the answer under less-stressful circumstances.

Moreover, she saw the original red card literally once and only briefly. She didn't take it home with her to study. She didn't make it her phone's background photo or anything lol. So what makes you think she internalized the nuances of the original, and what makes you think she'd have the presence of mind to notice this version is slightly different (especially when she's about to be crushed under a bay of lockers)?

These are all rhetorical questions - meaning I'm not looking for your answer - just meant to get you and other commenters to think from *Gorya's* perspective. To empathize with her, instead of criticizing her actions simply because she doesn't act like you -the "all knowing" viewer- want her to act.

It is such a revelation! The fact that Hana Yori Dango out of all the possibilities has led to such layered, thoughtful storytelling is just absolute proof that it doesn't matter how trope-y or shouju a drama is, it does not have be shallow.

Nice connection. I've seen some contemplation about the speech that I found interesting that goes with what you noticed... Kavin starts with a quote that he attributes to CS Lewis (but it is a fake quote) and gives a very mundane by-the-book speech about "moving on". He's valedictorian only in name, and it's likely someone wrote his speech for him. Basically, his speech sucks and the ideas are shallow, and the whole episode is a contrast to the idea that the past can simply be moved on from without facing it head-on first.

Why limit it to one?

The *concept* of a Time Machine - something that can go back and change the past - is what is most relevant. It is the lens through which character decisions should be viewed to understand them more deeply. There's too much to talk about in just one post, but here are some thoughts:

Kavin gives a speech ALLLLL about moving forward from the past and towards the future and then the episode cuts to Gorya looking at an ad with a slogan that says "Leave past; Live tomorrow" (underlining the same concept as Kavin's speech). But when Gorya asks Talay if he thinks it's possible to forget the past and move on, under his breath, he says 'no'. Talay undermines the concept of simply "moving on" from the past. Whatever happened in his past cannot be left in the past. By the end of the episode we see the ramifications of what this means.

Gorya talks about regression - returning to a former state - just before she gets a red card (which is a mirroring of past events). I have a post down below where I've listed out other times something happened in episode 10 that mirrored something from a past episode. These call-backs all come in the same episode and seem intentional.

Regarding your comment about "Gorya's decision for dumping Thyme" or "Thyme's past as a bully", I think that the second one has more impact in the story.

Thyme wasn't simply a bully. He CREATED the red card game. The red card itself is not simply a card. It is a symbol of the system of power and abuse that Thyme created. Thyme cannot simply "end" the red card game because he cannot simply "end" the system. It was this system that hurt Phupha and led to Talay's revenge and to Gorya's kidnapping. Because the card is symbolic of Thyme's abuse of power, it follows that the second red card and Gorya's kidnapping is a direct result of Thyme's past decisions. Going back to the concept of The Time Machine and to the idea of "moving on from the past" and we see how obvious it is that Thyme needs to head-on confront the consequences of his past decisions and actively dismantle the system he created if he wants to move forward.

"People around her always suspect".... do you know why though?

- Ren is aware of an anti-F4 group, Gorya is not.
- The trio are used to being up in everyone's business and have never seen him before, Gorya is used to staying to herself (and she HAS seen him at school many times).
- MJ questioned whether there is student at their school who is also a delivery driver (because the school is full of elites, not working class), Gorya literally IS an exception to the 'elites only' rule, so it make sense that she's open to others being an exception as well.

Who else found him suspect (those are the only ones I can think of)? And why should Gorya feel the same way as them?

This is what I meant when I said "thinking from the perspective of a character" not the "all knowing" viewer.

You have gone back on your own words...
Earlier you said you did mention need Gorya to trust Thyme, but now the thrust of what "too much" means seems to be that Gorya told Talay she believes that he is trying to help her and didn't voice the same opinion about Thyme.

I think VSaraP9 is right and it would have been less sad if Gorya had openly trusted Thyme at that moment. But believe me when I saw were going to get a turn in Gorya where she DOES trust Thyme and that moment will be so so so much more impactful because of all her waffling and confusion up u til now.

I also think you should sit with VSaraP9's words about whether the reason you don't trust Talay is because you know the outcome. Try to think what behavior Talay has shown that would make Gorya distrust him. It can be difficult to think from the perspective of a character when you are the "all knowing" viewer, but it really helps immerse you in the character's feelings and actions.

Tbh I don't think there's any "completely" happening anywhere. Even Talay won't be "completely wrong" just like Hana wasn't "completely evil" and Gorya isn't "completely" anything. This show has such 3D characters that none of them can be described so simplistically imo.

The reason I liked writing my response to your comment (even though I disagreed with you) is because it challenged me to understand WHY I disagreed with you. I thought up things while writing it that I hadn't thought about before (particularly how Gorya has made so many good friends and only Hana is the outlier so far, so she really shouldn't have developed a complex stopping her from making friends or trusting people).

If you think Gorya trusted Talay "too much", instead of just saying you felt that way because you felt that way, you should try and describe to yourself WHY you feel that way (this is not a challenge btw and you do not have to tell me your answer lol)

Yes!!

Also, I totally saw your tweet about the carpet at the funeral and 🤯 what a fantastic catch!

Some advice: if you put a comment out there, just let it exist. People will react to the comment in every which way, but they aren't reacting to "you" and so you shouldn't take things personally either.

"Too much"? What was too much. She didn't cosign a loan for him or anything lol

Also, I wanted to add that even though I completely disagree, it was still really thought provoking

Episode 10 is so very very much about the fact that you cannot "Leave past; Live tomorrow" until the past is dealt with head-on, and there are tons of moments in the episode that reflect moments from previous episodes:

Gorya gets a red card - episode 1
Thyme-faced cookies - episode 8
Screwdriver: "Keep her alive"/Kavin: "Make sure he gets out alive" - episode 1
Gorya saying "My friend has nothing to do with it" - episode 2
Gorya distrusting Thyme with Tesla/Talay - episode 6
Rain-soaked Thyme - episode 4

I've been thinking about your comment and I truly truly disagree.

Talay never did anything to make her feel like she couldn't trust him, and he did a lot to gain her friendship and sympathy. As a viewer, it's easy to see that Talay isn't on the level, but Gorya only sees him being a good friend to her time and time again and she also sees much in his life and behavior that reflects her own. This is a recipe for quick friendship for anyone, let alone someone who is lonely as hell and as overwhelmed with life as Gorya is.

Besides, we've seen her make more great friends (F4, Mira, Lita, Tia) than any who have betrayed her (literally only Hana pre Talay). Why why why should she be a distrusting cynic??? What is your advice to her really? (rhetorical questions)

Gorya's character is portrayed as so strong in part because she stays so true to herself and the "true" Gorya is an absolutely great friend. Even after Hana betrayed her, Gorya still said goodbye. She couldn't forgive Hana for her actions, but she could choose to not become bitter, seeing their friendship as nothing but a betrayal.

Gorya's actions don't need to be 'justified' by the viewers since they are completely in line with her character. Of course she befriends Talay. Of course she worries that he's being attacked when she's dragged into the stadium. All of this is typical Gorya. We've gotten to know her so so so well over 10 episodes and her behavior is completely 'justified' by her own character and the situation.

Good stuff. I love having thoughtful ideas to compare mine against.

I'm reminded of this great video about the movie Annihilation (have you seen it?? I can't recommend it enough. It's amazing):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=URo66iLNEZw

If a viewer can't decode metaphor, then they can only focus on or find meaning in the literal.

It's like... without metaphor, the fake red card doesn't really seem to have anything to do with Thyme. After all, he 'cancelled' the game so why should he be held accountable? Etc. Etc.

Ah, yes, thank you for re-upping the point about how paternalistic Thyme was to Gorya in the last episode. There was a lot of discussion about it last week, but I'm happy to be reminded of it when reflecting on how the struggle to be together is both personal and systemic. Even if he has done a good job of quelling his personal issues (the violence) he still has to unlearn much of the social ones for them to come together as equal partners.

I like your point about catharsis and it led me down this train of thought:

Pretty much from the beginning of commenting on MDL, I've been constantly wrestling with the idea that there are some viewers who seem to flatten these 3D characters into 2D representations of "ML" and "FL", and who are expecting certain tropes and visual cues to enlighten them as to what a character is feeling (for instance, a previous comment that said something like "Gorya would've acted jealous if she liked Thyme", etc).

I can't help but question if this is related to an ability to empathize. If a viewer cannot empathize, can they be expected to be interested in internal conflict or feel a character's catharsis as their own? I kind of feel like the answer must be 'no'.

I'm adding another comment cuz I like your post so much...

We know that being distrusted by Gorya affects Thyme. When she got upset over Thyme hitting Talay, Thyme got MAD and also incredibly violent. He even nearly hit Gorya.

The circumstance this time is even worse in that Thyme didn't even do anything wrong. Talay manipulated the whole thing. But we still get to see the change in Thyme's behavior as a stark contrast to episode 8. Instead of lashing out violently, he still feels upset, but he also still goes calmly to the prom.

Even though Gorya literally told Thyme to leave her alone and even though he told her she'd regret those words, as soon as he got the text he ran out the door to save her. It would be easy for him to run to someone he knows loves him and trusts him unconditionally, but that's not what's happening here. He's running out the door because he is an entirely different Thyme from episode 8 (like he says at the end of episode 8, he's now a version of himself who deserves Gorya).

And when Gorya gets her turning point moment next episode it will be that much more impactful on the characters and on us because of the contrast to this moment in episode 10. I can't wait!

“While many are growing, I sometimes feel like I’m regressing.” -Gorya

Gorya outright makes this comment in the scene directly after she distrusts Thyme. This comment, like the behavior, seems to be *intentional* - the screenwriters are straight-up pointing it out to us. Thinking about WHY she is like this is interesting, but the comments simply stating that she *is* like this are confusing to me.

Character development is not "character learns lesson A and will therefore move on to lesson B, never to return to lesson A".

The whole episode seems to be all about the inability to move on from past mistakes and move forward without a reckoning first. Gorya is not immune to this theme either. Gorya has pushed Thyme away, she even expressed the thought (erroneously) that Thyme moved on with Lita and therefore she could move on as well, but, in the end, her behavior is still firmly rooted in past behavior. She has repressed so many of her feelings this whole time and she can't be expected to move forward until she has her own reckoning as well.

Yup yup.

If Gorya already completely trusted Thyme, the narrative would lack any emotional/character tension. The only drama would be coming from the external devices (Lita, Talay) rather than internal struggles to overcome, which, like you pointed out, WILL be overcome. It's much more meaningful the way it is.