Talay: *pours his heart out recalling all the injustices him and Pupha had to face, and how the latter's life…
Huh. I'll be rewatching today with a more critical eye than my initial viewing and I'll see if this part seems off on the rewatch.
But I wonder what your last sentence implies? That the better writing would have Gorya... say she's sorry for phupha getting beaten up? ... decide Thyme is evil and join the anti f4s? ... stay quiet because it's rude to interrupt and discuss her own tied-to-a-chair predicament?
My imagination is lacking on this one.
Ps, if it sounds like I'm being flippant, I'm not. I'm honestly curious what outcome wouldn't have bothered you.
I'm thinking more about #F4ThailandEp11 and have to say I don't think the writing is as strong as we've seen in…
Oh interesting. I wonder why it seemed to work for me? Sometimes I wonder if I'm just super bad at criticizing something I love lol.
But I think I found Talay less sympathetic in his own right as a character than what he represented... people who are hurt and displace that hurt onto others, people who have no recourse in the legal system, etc.
As for the obvious writing... I kind of dig shows with their hearts on their sleeve. Sense8 is my all time favorite show and it also has a lot of fantastic monologuing to really take the ambiguity out lol.
I'll probably rewatch today and I'll see if I feel like the Talay character lands as well on a more critical rewatch.
god do I hope that Lita doesn’t turn evil I know she’s better than the typical jealous SFL
Haha no one in this show is 1-dimensional, so she'll be treated well by the writers.
The DaebakPodcast account on Twitter (lilili here on MDL) noticed that Lita is wearing chain earrings in the scene when she overhears GoryaThyme. It mirrors Thyme's chain necklace that he wears when he's being "chained" to the expectations and values of his mother/society. So its likely signaling that Lita will have her own emotional arc regarding it.
honestly it's okay, i'll finish it but definitely prefer meteor garden 2018 over it despite it's length. it's…
You know, even though I love the show with a fiery burning passion and I'd willingly sign up for a film study or literature class devoted to the show, I don't actually think it is necessary for everyone to watch it. If it triggers you, you might put it down for now (or, forever). There are so many lovely lighthearted romances out there that you'd probably enjoy more.
I think you're only a couple of episodes in from what you said before and there will be more scenes to come that go even darker than in episode 1 & 2. It's all for a purpose, and the scenes are meaningful on multiple levels, but that doesn't mean it won't be a hard watch and maybe too out of your comfort zone.
Watch or don't watch, it's obviously up to you, but don't feel pressured if you don't enjoy the way it handles the bullying with such seriousness.
Haha! It's a perfect trope for our soulful MJ and his underworld family dynasty too.
Stupid KFC though, now I'm gonna be like, "go on, go on, give him a Zinger" every time I want characters to have an overt declaration of friendship. jkjk
1. In the warehouse scene, Gorya pleads to Thyme to fight the assailants back, but Thyme doesn't do it because…
Try thinking about it this way....
You didn't *say* "I put Gorya on a pedestal" and to you, it's enough that you didn't say it (even though I agree that your comments *reflect* that behavior)
Similarly, Gorya doesn't *say* the things you want her to say but her behavior still reflects deeper intentions.
What is *said* is very surface level. It is the behavior as well as the camerawork/thematic elements that shows intentions and a more real representation of what someone thinks/feels and the meaning behind it all.
EP 11: The Atonement. I was impressed by how much time EP 11 gave to the back story of Talay and Bupha. It's a…
Ugh I love your post so much.
I won't be able to write anything coherent for a while (I'm a little too wrapped up in my feelings about the episode rn) but what I want to say mirrors your post to a T.
I hope everyone reads your post and reflects on it because it's spot-freaking-on.
I love coming to the comment section each week, but this one I need to process alone for a little bit... but first I need to spill some feelings out.
I'm so blown away by this show and it's characterizations and storytelling. I have just never seen anything like this. Especially one aimed/marketed for teens and young adults. Especially in a romance genre.
This show is so beautiful, the characters are so beautiful, everyone is given an ocean's worth of depth, and it has the right focus and morals to really make the show so so so worth watching.
Later on I'll probably write up something about the concept of change and atonement vs. punitive "justice" (prison, etc.). But for now I just want to say:
I second lilili's comment, though I would go so far as to argue that F4T itself is *not* toxic since the toxic…
Yeah, you make sense. I only brought it up because many many comments after episode 7 made it clear that a lot of viewers simply want a 1-dimensional "this is bad behavior" commentary spoon fed to them (this sounds like I'm passing judgment but I'm not... just acknowledging that this show won't give commentary that way).
For me, there was a moment in episode 1 when I realized this show was so much more than its predecessors.... when Thyme's mom gave an interview and talked about giving a 'red card' in business. I remember thinking, "goddamn, they just took one of the silliest, most toxic set-ups in dramaland and made it deep wth?" and then the show just kept getting better and better from there.
ETA: Watch or don't watch it's totally up to you. But if you do watch, feel free to come back and give an update ;)
I second lilili's comment, though I would go so far as to argue that F4T itself is *not* toxic since the toxic…
Let me clarify... If you go into it expecting a "cautionary tale" you will be disappointed.
Instead of having a character turn to the camera and deliver a public service announcement to the audience that "violence is bad", it shows where the violence is coming from and depicts its ramifications really well.
Very simply put (and only one angle of viewing it): In the show, as in real life, in a patriarchal system, one of the only "acceptable" forms of showing emotion from males is violence. The ML in the early episodes is a product of this system. His journey, in part, is him un-learning this impulse.
That said, the show does not give him a pass either. He isn't really allowed to just "decide" not to be violent any more and therefore everything is okay. His violence has ramifications that will come down on him and force him to reckon with his past before he can atone and move forward. (this is all of our anticipation for the next episode)
By the way, my comment is really too simplistic because it is also providing commentary on family, business, society, etc as well.
All right, folks.I am not a fan of the BOF story in general. Why should I try this one if I've hated the toxicity…
I second lilili's comment, though I would go so far as to argue that F4T itself is *not* toxic since the toxic behaviors are grounded in the narrative, and because depiction does not equal endorsement.
Basically, the bullying isn't simply a set-up. There is intention and deep meaning behind the narrative of the bullying. Moreover, the ML's violent behavior isn't just character flavoring to make him seem 'dangerous' or 'sexy'. It's actually a *major* flaw to overcome and he won't overcome it simply.
For anyone reading, this is my favorite twitter thread to share to indicate the level of depth this show takes these characters and the story (major spoilers up to episode 6 (I think?):
All of this said, if someone only wants to watch for the plot and simply doesn't like the depiction of toxic traits full stop, no discussion (no judgement!). Then this is not for them imo.
I feel like so many comments about whether Gorya "believed in Talay" or "believed in Thyme" are too reductionist, and I'd like to explain what I mean by that.
Gorya seems conflicted when Talay tells her it was likely Thyme who gave the red card. Like she has Talay's voice (which is constantly trying to manipulate her) and her feelings that are tearing her in opposite directions.
She doesn't *look* like she believes him to me (just like Ren, MJ, and Kavin all looked conflicted too when they heard Ren say, "they said it's Thyme") and I don't think that *what a character SAYS* has to be *what a character MEANS*.
Taking this moment from Gorya's perspective:
She knows Talay doesn't like Thyme; She saw Thyme push Talay by the coffee stand and seem to be hovering threateningly over Talay in the parking garage (truth doesn't matter - it is her *perspective*); She knows (thinks) Talay believes it was Thyme who gave the card; There are students literally hunting her down and time is short; Talay asks her to believe he wants to protect her.
What would a *reasonable* person do in this moment under these circumstances? Waste time trying to convince Talay that Thyme probably didn't give her the red card because he's kind of a decent guy actually okay? Not likely lol.
No, they'd probably act just like Gorya did. Her behavior makes sense under the circumstances, even if we don't get to know what's going on in her head and what she feels. Like MarieAli says in the comments below, "This is not the end". It's highly likely we'll have more insight to Gorya's feelings in the next 6 episodes which might make us reflect on this moment entirely differently than we do today.
"The best version" can actually be extremely objective in many cases:
The best in terms of:
Social commentary
Layered storytelling
Succint writing
Thematic writing
Costumes (design choices are symbolic)
Etc.
These are all objective statements. The other versions might be preferred by some people, but they can't compete on the same level of quality as F4.
But I wonder what your last sentence implies? That the better writing would have Gorya... say she's sorry for phupha getting beaten up? ... decide Thyme is evil and join the anti f4s? ... stay quiet because it's rude to interrupt and discuss her own tied-to-a-chair predicament?
My imagination is lacking on this one.
Ps, if it sounds like I'm being flippant, I'm not. I'm honestly curious what outcome wouldn't have bothered you.
But I think I found Talay less sympathetic in his own right as a character than what he represented... people who are hurt and displace that hurt onto others, people who have no recourse in the legal system, etc.
As for the obvious writing... I kind of dig shows with their hearts on their sleeve. Sense8 is my all time favorite show and it also has a lot of fantastic monologuing to really take the ambiguity out lol.
I'll probably rewatch today and I'll see if I feel like the Talay character lands as well on a more critical rewatch.
The DaebakPodcast account on Twitter (lilili here on MDL) noticed that Lita is wearing chain earrings in the scene when she overhears GoryaThyme. It mirrors Thyme's chain necklace that he wears when he's being "chained" to the expectations and values of his mother/society. So its likely signaling that Lita will have her own emotional arc regarding it.
I think you're only a couple of episodes in from what you said before and there will be more scenes to come that go even darker than in episode 1 & 2. It's all for a purpose, and the scenes are meaningful on multiple levels, but that doesn't mean it won't be a hard watch and maybe too out of your comfort zone.
Watch or don't watch, it's obviously up to you, but don't feel pressured if you don't enjoy the way it handles the bullying with such seriousness.
Stupid KFC though, now I'm gonna be like, "go on, go on, give him a Zinger" every time I want characters to have an overt declaration of friendship. jkjk
https://twitter.com/arcnlumi/status/1500208325819985920?t=BVwYSHFju3Cvc8kf7j0z6A&s=19
You didn't *say* "I put Gorya on a pedestal" and to you, it's enough that you didn't say it (even though I agree that your comments *reflect* that behavior)
Similarly, Gorya doesn't *say* the things you want her to say but her behavior still reflects deeper intentions.
What is *said* is very surface level. It is the behavior as well as the camerawork/thematic elements that shows intentions and a more real representation of what someone thinks/feels and the meaning behind it all.
I love this comment
I won't be able to write anything coherent for a while (I'm a little too wrapped up in my feelings about the episode rn) but what I want to say mirrors your post to a T.
I hope everyone reads your post and reflects on it because it's spot-freaking-on.
I'm so blown away by this show and it's characterizations and storytelling. I have just never seen anything like this. Especially one aimed/marketed for teens and young adults. Especially in a romance genre.
This show is so beautiful, the characters are so beautiful, everyone is given an ocean's worth of depth, and it has the right focus and morals to really make the show so so so worth watching.
Later on I'll probably write up something about the concept of change and atonement vs. punitive "justice" (prison, etc.). But for now I just want to say:
❤❤❤❤❤
For me, there was a moment in episode 1 when I realized this show was so much more than its predecessors.... when Thyme's mom gave an interview and talked about giving a 'red card' in business. I remember thinking, "goddamn, they just took one of the silliest, most toxic set-ups in dramaland and made it deep wth?" and then the show just kept getting better and better from there.
ETA: Watch or don't watch it's totally up to you. But if you do watch, feel free to come back and give an update ;)
Instead of having a character turn to the camera and deliver a public service announcement to the audience that "violence is bad", it shows where the violence is coming from and depicts its ramifications really well.
Very simply put (and only one angle of viewing it): In the show, as in real life, in a patriarchal system, one of the only "acceptable" forms of showing emotion from males is violence. The ML in the early episodes is a product of this system. His journey, in part, is him un-learning this impulse.
That said, the show does not give him a pass either. He isn't really allowed to just "decide" not to be violent any more and therefore everything is okay. His violence has ramifications that will come down on him and force him to reckon with his past before he can atone and move forward. (this is all of our anticipation for the next episode)
By the way, my comment is really too simplistic because it is also providing commentary on family, business, society, etc as well.
Basically, the bullying isn't simply a set-up. There is intention and deep meaning behind the narrative of the bullying. Moreover, the ML's violent behavior isn't just character flavoring to make him seem 'dangerous' or 'sexy'. It's actually a *major* flaw to overcome and he won't overcome it simply.
For anyone reading, this is my favorite twitter thread to share to indicate the level of depth this show takes these characters and the story (major spoilers up to episode 6 (I think?):
https://twitter.com/subway_dates/status/1485132857135669248
All of this said, if someone only wants to watch for the plot and simply doesn't like the depiction of toxic traits full stop, no discussion (no judgement!). Then this is not for them imo.
Gorya seems conflicted when Talay tells her it was likely Thyme who gave the red card. Like she has Talay's voice (which is constantly trying to manipulate her) and her feelings that are tearing her in opposite directions.
She doesn't *look* like she believes him to me (just like Ren, MJ, and Kavin all looked conflicted too when they heard Ren say, "they said it's Thyme") and I don't think that *what a character SAYS* has to be *what a character MEANS*.
Taking this moment from Gorya's perspective:
She knows Talay doesn't like Thyme; She saw Thyme push Talay by the coffee stand and seem to be hovering threateningly over Talay in the parking garage (truth doesn't matter - it is her *perspective*); She knows (thinks) Talay believes it was Thyme who gave the card; There are students literally hunting her down and time is short; Talay asks her to believe he wants to protect her.
What would a *reasonable* person do in this moment under these circumstances? Waste time trying to convince Talay that Thyme probably didn't give her the red card because he's kind of a decent guy actually okay? Not likely lol.
No, they'd probably act just like Gorya did. Her behavior makes sense under the circumstances, even if we don't get to know what's going on in her head and what she feels. Like MarieAli says in the comments below, "This is not the end". It's highly likely we'll have more insight to Gorya's feelings in the next 6 episodes which might make us reflect on this moment entirely differently than we do today.