Agreed. There's a lot of sociological inquiry into why women like BL so much, and at least to me it's absolutely fascinating. What stands out to me is how varied the reasons are, and how deep it goes, into psychology and the effects of societal misogyny. Here's a couple of examples. But I haven't seen any inquiry into why some men like GL, and I'd actually be really interested in hearing more about that.Ryn:
So if anyone has resources on that, or would like to share their own reasons (beyond double girls = double hot), I'm all ears. Idk I really think that if 'it's hot' was all there was to it, they'd just be watching porn, no? Why would they sit through all the relationship drama, plot, angst and fluff if they're only in it for the kissing? Doesn't add up.
I love media scholarship. I know there's some GL-related research in the works, but I'm unsure if any have gotten to the point of releasing results yet. I did find this article: https://www.animefeminist.com/yuri-is-for-everyone-an-analysis-of-yuri-demographics-and-readership/ But it's mainly centered around manga and anime.
Objectification is erasing someone's agency, their ability to make decisions, turning them into a thing. Dehumanization is erasing someone's capacity to have a full range of human emotions. I don't see how a whole GL drama could even exist without revolving around its main characters' decisions and emotions. Then again I once stumbled into a 'favorite lesbian movies' list by some guy on IMDB and he'd organized them by breast size, which he'd tagged for every movie... barf. So yeah I guess it is possible to somehow ignore all of the plot and focus only on whether the actresses are hot.
The audacity of some allosexuals amaze me, ngl. I can't believe that 1) the list exists. and 2) that he thought it appropriate to make it public.
Asexual women are vastly overrepresented when it comes to consumption of BL media, and a common reason we hear is that it helps them experience romance/sexuality from a distance, without any danger of accidentally identifying too closely with either protagonist and triggering repulsion/discomfort. I have seen a couple of asexual/aromantic men say the same thing about GL, but I haven't seen it enough to consider it a pattern just yet.
I am one of the ace women. And indeed, i've seen a few people say the same. And then others who avoid the romance genre altogether. And then ofc, some who are not repulsed, or at least not in the context of stories, and have no problem whatsoever.
As this was discussed earlier, I'll provide the perspective of a straight CIS man. I simply watch Thai GLs because I enjoy them. They are (generally) fluffy, low-angst and easy to watch stories with happy endings. Even though the quality isn't always the highest, I still usually find the stories enjoyable (I've only ever dropped one Thai GL drama). The suggestion that it is "weird" that a straight man would enjoy GL content implies that the primary motivation for him watching that content is for perverted sexual gratification. I have no doubt that there are straight men who watch lesbian content for that exact reason, but it is certainly not my motivation. If it was my motivation, (which again, it is not) then I'd be watching lesbian porn (or at least explicit movies) rather than the VERY non-explicit Thai GL dramas.MarkWasHere:
Thank you for your perspective! It is true, a lot of what people place into BL/GL categories (vs a "queer" category, for the people who view them as being different) is much more low angst that "queer" stories, with a happy ending (Happy Ever After or Happy For Now) almost guaranteed. In fact, it's what also subjects the genres to criticism... "unrealistic, too far removed from the queer experience, etc". I myself love both categories/types of queer storytelling myself. I believe that with rising awareness and acceptance... the claim of "unrealistic" is getting incredibly harder to say. It's very varied from culture-to-culture and even person-to-person. Plus, we could all use a little hope and escapism and fluff.
Also I'm disabled and my brain pretty often doesn't work and will barely let me do anything, and one of the first things it allows me to focus on again is the most mellow, predictable and fluffy Thai BLs or GLs in existence. (That's also the reason I tend to finish BL/GL that isn't very good before I finish the good ones haha. I can't watch the good ones unless my brain works, but when my brain works, I need to do useful stuff instead.) Watching fluffy BL/GL makes it feel like I can do at least SOMETHING other than staring at a wall, and the something might even be minimally useful because I get to learn a language for free. I love learning languages :).
Relatable.
(Please message me with more stuff like that if you have it.)dora:
Thomas Baudinette (https://thomasbaudinette.com/blog/) and https://www.fujoshi.info/database are great.
I like GL stories better if the women are alternative or one is butch. My spouse is non binary, born female, but I generally am more attracted to butch women and nonbinary/gender fluid folks. I like alternative characters because that’s more how I was in my twenties, so I relate to those characters more. I also (like most queer women) love strong female characters or superhero types.
Not too much like that in Eastern GL quite yet (tho a few are in the works). But there are some in western wlw stories and in literature. I try to share in the discord whenever i come across any. If you've seen/liked any, feel free to share (for others, and maybe i could give some recs based on that info).
oh god, i think started the whole controversy... wtf.???????Chiharu:
Idk about that. I do think the original comment was quite... uhh... charged. But i think it spurred an interesting discussion of who is watching GL (and BL) and for what reasons. Which is a discussion i love to spy on and participate in whenever i see it crop up.
At first I thought maybe I experienced a similar thing, but now I'm thinking maybe it's actually kind of the opposite. Before I got top surgery a couple of years ago, I had trouble watching sapphic media precisely because I did see myself in the actresses, which made me dysphoric. They had anatomy I didn't want to be reminded I had too. They were being idealized/romanticized/sexualized specifically for their femininity, and there's obviously nothing wrong with that, but it reminded me of how dysphoric I felt when that happened to me. Almost like a weird type of second-hand embarrassment 'I hope people don't see me like that', while knowing that despite my best efforts a lot of people had seen me like that.
I have a similar sentiment, but for asexual reasons. I don't want to be reminded of what that kind of intimacy is like, nor do I really want to consider the prospect of people potentially viewing me that way.
Here's a video of Thai GL series that were announced, but now appear to be dead. I hadn't even heard of most of them.
Just Nearby - we talked about this one in the discord. I didnt even get around to playing the trailer before the cancellation news hit. I shared some of the found similarities as i came across posts stating them.
Sunshine in the Wind - I STILL HAVE HOPE. Studio Wabi Sabi recently underwent restructuring where they stopped acting as a talent agency and are only operating as a production studio now. Actor contracts ended or were terminated and actors moved on to other studios. One of their projects was moved over to GMMTV ("Revamp"), but otherwise they said that they still planned to continue their other projects. So, i shall stay delulu and have hope for a little while longer. Restructuring is complicated.
Let's Kick This Love - Yep, same studio as KinnPorsche. I'm sure that if this project would've moved forward, it would've been great quality.
Draft Your Love - I mourn the absence of a tattoo artist GL lead T_T
Be Mine - The novels have actually been bought!
Girl Love Girl Friend - Dude, the way the BL had an air date and streaming platform, missed the air date, and had the streaming platform going "we don't know what happened" was WILD. Talk about burning a bridge. And then they deleted their socials! No statement, just GONE.
Last Case - We're all trying our hardest to maintain our delulu on this one. The genre. The promo materials. The cast (including a black actress)... we lost so much with this cancellation
They missed a few. All the GLs in the SKIU/Love in the Rain universe for instance. Cancelled after people started bashing it on socials for a having a low-budget pilot trailer with some flaws. People were unreasonably harsh - especially since a pilot trailer is not an official trailer. It's often done before anything is finalized and is used as part of the pitch for funding and sponsors. Stupid people. A few of the actresses and actors tied to the universe though have been in a few other projects though, as well as spotted in auditions for others. Just a shame. This was a super expansive universe, based around a band as well - and one of the stories even used my beloved rainverse set up.
I regularly hope that the people who bashed it so hard live with the regret of their actions hard on their chest.
I did find this article: https://www.animefeminist.com/yuri-is-for-everyone-an-analysis-of-yuri-demographics-and-readership/ But it's mainly centered around manga and anime.AthenaTheStorierX:
Thank you, I will be reading that, and let me know if you find anything else! Wait actually skimming it now I feel like I've read that but I don't know from where or how.
I have a similar sentiment, but for asexual reasons. I don't want to be reminded of what that kind of intimacy is like, nor do I really want to consider the prospect of people potentially viewing me that way.
Ace-ness plays into it for me somewhat too. I used to think my asexuality played into it a whole lot more than I do now. Top surgery solved more than I thought it would. I underestimated the impact dysphoria could have. I still have quite a bit of dysphoria left, so I'm not sure how much of this remaining sentiment to attribute to my asexuality and how much to my remaining dysphoria.
Last Case - We're all trying our hardest to maintain our delulu on this one. The genre. The promo materials. The cast (including a black actress)... we lost so much with this cancellation
That one. I wanted it so bad :(
In a similar vein to these videos:
https://youtu.be/TkD0m38E1Wg?si=n9NkdN9rMQF-C5l-
Yes I was just thinking 'hmm should've linked the ones about wlw media too' and I thought about linking that exact same one, plus these two.
Just finished Somewhere Somehow and I really liked it :)
The way the friendship between Pock and Kie is portrayed feels novel. It feels kind of like a QPR, in the way they make lifelong platonic commitments to each other along with tearful 'I love you's' and a slowmo-flashback compilation, and in the way Pheem is half-jokingly jealous of their relationship. The relationship between Pock and Kie is on par with the relationship between Kie and Pheem, it's just that one is platonic and the other romantic.
Color me intrigued. Thank you for this perspective.
I'm fine w/ Female BL fans, idc about it, tho. I'm just natural to em' but, male girl's love fans??? thats very weird?????/nbr
I am straight aroace male and I Iike all romances... especially romcoms. I watched many straight romances and liked them, but GL is different... softer... special. And I don't watch GL because of kissing even though I like kissing scenes in dramas. Some dramas don't have any kissing scenes and I still liked them, like ...She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat . I don't watch BL series, but I saw a few movies or BL side couples and I have no problem with them too. I even liked some... for example Wu Gang and Sam in We Are Gamily - they were nice couple and fun to watch. But main issue is plot and fun. If any drama has bad annoying plot, I would skip it even when GL cupple is extremely cute.
I think that female BL fans might be as weird for some males. Why any female ship two males together? I don't think it is controversy, but it could be interesting psychological discussion. All depends on someone's point of view and personal taste.
That's fair enough haha. For me the absurdity and lack of realism in GL is part of the appeal. It's escapism, idealized fantasy.
This is good thought - escapism and idealized fantasy. That is maybe I also like writing GL stories. It is a fantasy and I don't have to identify with any of main heroines. Even though it is hard not to when I use 1st person POV. :)
but GL is different... softer... special.kardasx:
I think I remember hearing that from a guy who likes GL before, that it's the softness he likes. The way you phrase that sounds like you don't fully understand yourself yet why that's the case, but if I'm wrong about that, please correct me and tell me why that is, because I am a nerd about this and want to know.
I have two theories about why GL could seem 'softer' and why a guy might prefer that. They might both be totally off. But idk they could spark thoughts.
1, in conservative discourse about romance and sex, men are supposed to be the aggressor, the pursuer, doing conquest, which means romance/sex is closely discursively linked to aggression. Men are supposed to get something out of women, and women are supposed to resist losing it. It's often portrayed as an oppositional game/battle of wits between the sexes. When a woman stops resisting, she's been tamed/defeated/conquered/owned. Her social status is at risk of going down, while the man's social status goes up. The 'slut' insult only goes one way. Personally I am VERY uncomfortable with everything in that narrative, so I can imagine choosing to escape it by just excluding men altogether, and then bim bam boom you've got softer romance where that concept of aggression entangled with romance doesn't loom, and where consenting doesn't sound like one person won and the other lost. Sounds like a relief. Is that part of it or am I way off?
2, speaking from personal experience with a lot of aces and aros, we don't tend to be gender-conforming. This is probably common among aces because gender is at its most relevant when you're relating to another person as a potential romantic/sexual partner and at its least relevant when you're relating to them as a friend, so some aces feel like gender kind of doesn't apply to them. Aces also have a tendency towards neurodivergence. I've heard of ace guys experiencing a lot of friction with their male peers because of all that nonconformity, and because men can be competitive over status tied up with a man's ability to 'get women', which is not going to happen for an an aro/ace guy. So they might prefer to have female friends to avoid all of that competitive roughness. That's just tendencies, none of it is universal. Having negative personal experiences with roughness and competition coming from men could make someone want to escape that through idealized fantasy where men aren't present. Am I onto anything or not at all?
Personally I actually like when GL protagonists are badass bitches, and I don't mind when it's not all that soft, but that's because I like gender-nonconformity in media :)
Please educate me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me that every one of these actresses are very feminine. Am I missing something?
They seem pretty feminine to me too, but I guess they're being compared to their hyperfeminine on-screen partners. It's all relative. Thai GL has a real issue with not portraying any sapphics on the more masculine side of the spectrum.
This is a convo a few of us had in the discord in response to View’s character in Sweet Tooth Good Doctor calling herself a tom.
My best guess is that while western masc/tom labels have more emphasis on appearance (even tho you don’t have to have short hair, muscles, and hate make up even in the west), eastern/thai labels may read the differences between masculine and feminine differently.
Perhaps there’s some codeswitching involved? Mannerisms rather than appearance? Or indeed, as mentioned above here, it’s relative to who their ship partner is.
It’s a topic i want to research, but tbh i dont know where to look XD
Let us know if you find anything!
Personally I am VERY uncomfortable with everything in that narrative, so I can imagine choosing to escape it by just excluding men altogether,
I am uncomfortable with that too. But my mood changes, so sometimes I rather watch straight romances, sometimes I rather watch GL. But when I watch GL I hate all men trying to split main heroines up. I don't like girls trying to interrupt leads as well, but with men it is stronger feeling. I prefer fluffy sweet romances and angst scenes make me angry. But even though I sometimes rather watch straight romances, I still tend to ship FL with some girl, but I am okay when that doesn't happen.
Aces also have a tendency towards neurodivergence.
Neurodivergence might be describing me well. Yes, I feel that my brain works in different way. I am surely not "normal".
The way you phrase that sounds like you don't fully understand yourself yet
That is true. I mostly identify as an alien or half alien humanoid with not 100% gender of one type. Lol... idk I might be similar to the one in my profile photo (Nagato Yuki), but as INFP my strong part is empathy. Sometimes I think I am one of a few players in a virtual game and others are only NPCs. But I don't care much who I am, so I stopped trying to understad myself.
